|
Post by gregleepluggedin on Feb 6, 2007 15:01:57 GMT -5
Will there be damage control now? Something along the line of "most people felt there was something wrong with or about Mr. Mata....something in him or about him that they did not see or feel or sense at all in all the rest of the loving and faithful workers"?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 15:05:21 GMT -5
Kathy, I dont think anyone condones peodiphles. In fact I am sure they dont.' The suggestion that there are literly hundreds of workers who are inclined that way is a bit over the top. In all this we, as parents, have a duty of care and responsibility to our children. We must be vigilant of all people to ensure that we do not place our children in places of danger. Common sense and diligence will ensure that we lessen the risks. I can honestly say that I was always accutely aware of the dangers of improper behaviour and was diligent in my protection of my children. If anyone had touched my children, be he the president or pope, I would have persured him to the end of the earth. And Edgar, if this has been happening for years, why did you not do something about it when you were in the work? Although I will agree that they are absolutely not in the majority at all -- However there are far more 'silent and shy' folks with different sexual deviations in the work than most would admit or understand. The extremely unnatural celibate nature of the work fosters this. The same is likely true amongst priest and nuns. However there are literally hundreds of 2x2ers who actively choose to turn the other way and let 'what is' 'be', than need to accuse a worker of improper sexual behavior. The whole system is designed to place full blame on, what everywhere else in the world, is regarded as ordinary behavior and dress -- but that seems to arrouse feelings in the sex starved celibate leadership. This futile attempt to ignore basics of our hormone construction, is doomed to fail-- and the doctrine is designed to instead place the blame on victims created in the system.
|
|
|
Post by who are they on Feb 6, 2007 15:06:13 GMT -5
Edgar said:
"Of course, you don't have to believe me if you also wish it wasn't true .. but this does not change the fact that innocent children (including the boys raped later on) were very consciously put at risk by the workers involved."
Again, who are these "workers" who consciously put children at risk? What were they conscious of? Did they know of the 2000 confessions? How many complaints had they had before 2000?
Let's make these people accountable Edgar, not just pass on vague accusations.
The standard for workers should be:
1.Any formal accusation of molestation by children should be taken to the police for investigation. The status of the worker should be reviewed for dismissal. Should be automatically removed upon charges by the state. 2.Any worker facing two or more unrelated accusations should be automatically removed from the work, no proof required. 3.Known pedophiles should never be allowed in a meeting with children. It should be a life long ban.
Should any friend, worker or "outsider" see anything happening to the contrary of the above, it should be exposed widely.
Child abuse has to stop.
|
|
|
Post by kathy lewis on Feb 6, 2007 15:16:50 GMT -5
I didn't accuse 100s of workers of being pedophiles. I said that there are so many scandals. There are other kinds of sexual problems besides pedophilia. There is just plain adultery, homosexuality, pornography, etc. It is interesting that the workers, headworkers included, find it so easy to condemn professing people for divorce when they themselves frequently have adulterous affairs. Just remember the head worker in Alaska a decade ago.
The 2x2 system is all about appearances. The workers have enforced a rigid appearance code in the effort to make everyone look as uniformly unattractive as possible. There is a reason they want everyone to look unattractive. It makes everyone appear to be nonsexual.
The headworkers want the 2x2s to look and talk as if they are above all scandal. It obviously works because so many of you believe it.
|
|
|
Post by ali on Feb 6, 2007 15:19:35 GMT -5
Abuse of children in any way is the saddest most tragic thing. I can't stand to think about it....but we do need to think about it because the reality is it happens everywhere and a person needs to be vigilant. Unfortunately, you really can't completely trust anyone. Children don't lie about it and they need to be taught at a young age that their body is THEIRS. My children know the proper anatomical words for all their parts and they know to tell anyone that tries to touch them to say no ..that it is their privacy. They know that there are NO SECRETS and will come tell their mama even if someone threatens to hurt them or their family.
Teach your kids...IMO you can never be too careful. Family, friends, religious authorities, teachers, doctors....there are "nice" people everywhere who can take advantage of your trust and hurt your kids. We can't be with them constantly and thus they need to be educated. Always trust both your own and your children's instincts if something doesn't feel quite right.
|
|
|
Post by to Greg on Feb 6, 2007 15:24:52 GMT -5
I personally know of more than one case where the workers demanded that accusations be taken to the police, even where the alleged victim was unwilling to do so.Two things come to mind: 1 - Was the alleged culprit a non-worker? 2 - Did the workers think the allegations were false and hoped by pressing the matter thta they would go away? Greg, the alleged culprit was not a worker, but was a senior and high profile friend. From my understanding of the case, the workers did not attempt to reach a judgement on their own, but were applying their new zero tolerance rule, this is several years ago now(roughly about 4). The friend did not deny it either, but had come to an acceptable level of forgiveness by the victim and her family. The victim was post pubescent, but underaged, and the case bore some similarities to the Nevada case except the age differences were wider and the culprit was married. The workers insisted on police involvement which led to due process of law. Had the workers not insisted on police involvement right after they found out about it, nothing would have happened. Some insiders actually felt the workers had become too intolerant in the other direction. Personally, I think they have to go in that direction, whether it seems fair or not, intolerant or not.
|
|
|
Post by To who are they on Feb 6, 2007 15:25:35 GMT -5
I like your approach - it's constructive and solution oriented.
I am new to these bulletin boards. I have been amazed by the amount of blame, accusations, denial and flaming that goes on here. To some extent, I acknowledge that there may be merit in venting, especially if one was not allowed to do it for years and years.
However, if a thread like this could encourage 2X2 leadership to take a more responsible role for these kinds of issues - and if even one child could be spared the experience of being abused - then it is well worthwhile.
If a thread like this can make parents more vigilant over the care of their children, so that they street-proof them and never put them in a situation where they might be at risk, then that is well worthwhile too.
|
|
|
Post by protection on Feb 6, 2007 15:37:05 GMT -5
Abuse of children in any way is the saddest most tragic thing. I can't stand to think about it....but we do need to think about it because the reality is it happens everywhere and a person needs to be vigilant. Unfortunately, you really can't completely trust anyone. Children don't lie about it and they need to be taught at a young age that their body is THEIRS. My children know the proper anatomical words for all their parts and they know to tell anyone that tries to touch them to say no ..that it is their privacy. They know that there are NO SECRETS and will come tell their mama even if someone threatens to hurt them or their family. Teach your kids...IMO you can never be too careful. Family, friends, religious authorities, teachers, doctors....there are "nice" people everywhere who can take advantage of your trust and hurt your kids. We can't be with them constantly and thus they need to be educated. Always trust both your own and your children's instincts if something doesn't feel quite right. Ali, you are quite right that parents must do whatever possible to protect their children. That includes never leaving them unaccompanied with men in particular, workers or otherwise. Children need to be taught about inappropiate touching and behavior. They need to be taught to recognize the deceptive signs of danger. They need to learn strategies to get out of danger. They need to be able to feel like they can report abuse without fear that they will be belittled or ignored. An educated child is the one of the best defences in combatting child abuse. You are also right that children don't lie typically. It is, however, known that children who have been repeatedly abused by someone will on occasion accuse an innocent party. Sounds weird but it happens apparently so one must be careful. Strangely enough, it's not unusual in a marital breakup that the child will choose the abusive parent to stay with. I would say though that when a child makes accusations of abuse, there is almost no chance that abuse hasn't occurred somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by data on Feb 6, 2007 15:44:55 GMT -5
I am from Oregon and have only heard of the Reuben Mata case second hand. So from here on this is nothing but hearsay. More often the case is that they have few actual facts. No case number and no indication of what the charges were. Yet minute details regarding the judge almost breaking down. More hearsay. I heard he also used to torture small kittens as well. But I have no data to back it up. I also heard that this one went to some small island in the South Pacific and instituted a tradition where, as the ruler, he had the first pick of the women. He also brought back droit du seigneur. But I don't have any details. Perhaps of wild unsupported accusations like these. When you stop pointing fingers you might find out what percentage of people in the general population are sex offenders, what percentage of people in some specialized profession (teaching, for example) and then see where your facts stand in regard to the number of workers that fall into the same classification. [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by to Data on Feb 6, 2007 15:54:14 GMT -5
Data, What do you classify as an acceptable level of tolerance for abuse?
I see you are talking percentages of secular world to "The God's Perfect Way". If in fact "God's Perfect Way" totally clean is the absolute and the absolute must be maintained. Remember "God's Perfect Way" on earth and "God's Perfect Way" in Heaven are one-and-the-same.
|
|
|
Post by to stargazer on Feb 6, 2007 16:04:37 GMT -5
It isn't a problem until it's YOUR PROBLEM. Until it's your problem you won't believe any of the whistle blowers. When it hits home then why were the issues not dwelt with before it came and hit ME.
I'm sure the Germans felt the same way in the 1930's and 1940's.
|
|
|
Post by data on Feb 6, 2007 16:04:38 GMT -5
Data, What do you classify as an acceptable level of tolerance for abuse? I see you are talking percentages of secular world to "The God's Perfect Way". If in fact "God's Perfect Way" totally clean is the absolute and the absolute must be maintained. Remember "God's Perfect Way" on earth and "God's Perfect Way" in Heaven are one-and-the-same. Zero abuse. And for spreading rumors about people - at lease some factual information. Not just something my wife heard from the farmer's hired hand relating what he heard through the walls of the outhouse.
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Feb 6, 2007 16:06:29 GMT -5
I am from Oregon and have only heard of the Reuben Mata case second hand. I was expecting that those from California would be more forthcoming but so far they haven't given the details, probably because they don't want to be attacked in the same way people have attacked Edgar Massey for exposing the scandals. This quote came from someone in California. "I do not have Reuben's case number but this is what I have received in an email from one of my other cousins who was at the sentencing. Reuben got 6 years for the first count and 15 for the second and 15 for the third. That is consecutive, so he has a total of 36 years to life. He would be 90 by that time so there isn't much chance for him to ever be on the street again. The judge talked to him pretty straight and told him he chose this himself because he had plenty of time to change during the years before the trial after he turned himself in, etc. The judge almost broke down when she was talking to him. She told him he was not at all eligible for parole and even if he was she wouldn't give it to him! I really don't know too much more regarding Reuben but certainly feel the judge was good and am glad for the sentencing. I was not aware that he had turned himself in and wonder what the judge did mean by that statement." I was told that Reuben's mom and the head workers did everything they could to keep him from being prosecuted. They did not want people to find out. There was a brother worker, Duane Wong, in Oregon who was sent to jail for several years for molesting multiple children while he was in the worker. He was put out of the work, and got married and then molested his own daughter. There was a worker from the state of Washington who was in Africa for a number of years and he was sent home from Africa and put out of the work for the same reason and then he married and adopted children and molested his daughter. I have a whole list of workers and elders who have been found guilty of this problem through the years. I suspect that the reason that the head workers cover up the problem is because there are so many sexual scandals that if they got rid of them all, they wouldn't have many workers left. One exworker told me that when the workers are together, they often discuss the latest scandals. So, it isn't as if these things are being done without anyone's knowledge. The head workers are usually the earliest ones to hear about them because the other workers must report up. In fact, they are trained to tell the head workers everything. Why do you people, who are so quick to defend the workers, actually think that this kind of a lifestyle does not proliferate such problems? I don't feel as judgmental against these workers as I do against the system that sets everyone up for sexual problems. It is the system that is more evil than the workers. Workers are more victimized by this system than anyone. Thanks a million for this one Kathy
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Feb 6, 2007 16:08:30 GMT -5
I sure never knew that sexual abuse among the workers was such a problem
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Feb 6, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -5
My dad has always maintained that the workers should be married
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 16:15:01 GMT -5
Workers have always claimed zero tolerance regarding sexual abuse. The claim is as old as the hills!!! The mass denial expressed by most 2x2 supporters on this issue would suggest that reality is quite different. Wonder what the victims of worker sexual abuse feel as they read the self-righteous denial posts on this thread? Chances are not that slim, that some of them are on line.
|
|
|
Post by June on Feb 6, 2007 16:21:02 GMT -5
EXCEPTS from letter: The person in question was removed from the 2x2 ministry in 2001. Areas of Concern: Fresno County, Kern County, Tulare County, Selma and Hanford, CA area,as well as other places in California. Richard (Richard) Middleton is the overseer of this ministry for California for the year 2002-2003 in the Lodi-Placerville area. The ministers of this religion work in pairs, and his companion for the year 2002-2003 is listed as Harold Hilton. Mr. Middleton would have been the person responsible for this expulsion from the ministry, and he undoubtedly is fully aware of whatever accusations Mr. Middleton is not unaware of child molestation in his ministry. I reminded him that, while the ministry advocated the prosecution of lay people for sexual offences, the ministry has on numerous occasions sheltered their own members from prosecution for child molestation. He admitted that was true. ....................................................... 1. The trial was in Santa Clara County, CA. 2. Ruben was charged with three counts, summarized here: a. Penal Code section 288(b)(1) Lewd or lascivious act on a child by force, violence, duress menace and fear. b. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. c. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. 3. He was found guilty of all three counts. .................................................... Elmwood Correctional Facility Inmate Details First Name: RUBEN PFN: DWI200 Last Name: MATA CEN: 06034897 Middle Name: R Housing Facility: ELMWOOD M-4 Sex: M Bail Amount: No Bail Allowed Date Of Birth: 8/11/1945 Release Date: Booking Date: 05/23/2006 eservices.sccgov.org/ovr/find_inmate.doI get nothing from this URL. What's up.
|
|
|
Post by for your info on Feb 6, 2007 16:35:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by to Stargazer on Feb 6, 2007 16:38:53 GMT -5
I happen to know the people Kathy is speaking about. He was in the Sunday Morning meeting I attended in Washington State. I also know the other one in Oregon, but never attended meetings with him. I was in his gospel meetings when he was in the work. I didn't know why he left the work until reading the post Kathy put on her most today.
You stated: "My concern, like others, is the extrapolation of one or several horrible events to blanket a system or people.". Do you believe there is only "one or several horrible events" within the Workers Group?
I believe both Kathy and Edgar among others are attempting to expose the flaws in the system.
What percentage of problems in the system are you willing to tolerate? When that intolerable point is reached then should the system be repaired, dismantled, or replaced.
There are many religious systems available. Some seem to function remarkably well by inpowering the people to draw people to Jesus Christ. Some systems seem to do fairly well at drawing people to their system. Some do rather well working with other systems for the benefit of the final goal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 16:39:29 GMT -5
Kathy, I dont think anyone condones peodiphles. In fact I am sure they dont.' The suggestion that there are literly hundreds of workers who are inclined that way is a bit over the top. In all this we, as parents, have a duty of care and responsibility to our children. We must be vigilant of all people to ensure that we do not place our children in places of danger. Common sense and diligence will ensure that we lessen the risks. I can honestly say that I was always accutely aware of the dangers of improper behaviour and was diligent in my protection of my children. If anyone had touched my children, be he the president or pope, I would have persured him to the end of the earth. And Edgar, if this has been happening for years, why did you not do something about it when you were in the work? You are correct! I know NOT too many workers or friends condones peodiphles in the ministry or the fellowship and to suggest hundreds and thousands of the friends that way is indeed FALSE! When these exes were 2x2s did they condones such a thing? I don't think so then why they are saying that many workers and friends condones it. Our complaint is not that either friends or workers condone any form of sexual deviation (except compulsory celibacy) The complaint is that so many (a very large proportion) choose to deny victims the acknowledgment of their suffering that they deserve. They choose instead to allow (and enforce) the environment unquestioned faith in the moral chastity of workers, which indirectly is support for the offenders. -- and a free ticket for sexual vice.
|
|
|
Post by old case on Feb 6, 2007 16:40:46 GMT -5
I know of an old case where the worker brother of an overseer was caught molesting an underaged girl. This goes back to the 70's. It wasn't covered up. It was dealt with by a large group of elders who summarily punted the sicko forever.
Edgar should know about this case in his neighbouring province. He either doesn't want to talk about it because it demonstrates the opposite of what he is saying, or he had his head stuck in the sand back then too.
|
|
|
Post by a believer on Feb 6, 2007 16:42:44 GMT -5
Kathy, I dont think anyone condones peodiphles. In fact I am sure they dont.' The suggestion that there are literly hundreds of workers who are inclined that way is a bit over the top. In all this we, as parents, have a duty of care and responsibility to our children. We must be vigilant of all people to ensure that we do not place our children in places of danger. Common sense and diligence will ensure that we lessen the risks. I can honestly say that I was always accutely aware of the dangers of improper behaviour and was diligent in my protection of my children. If anyone had touched my children, be he the president or pope, I would have persured him to the end of the earth. And Edgar, if this has been happening for years, why did you not do something about it when you were in the work? You are correct! I know NOT too many workers or friends condones peodiphles in the ministry or the fellowship and to suggest hundreds and thousands of the friends that way is indeed FALSE! When these exes were 2x2s did they condones such a thing? I don't think so then why they are saying that many workers and friends condones it. I only heard of the odd rumors when I was in meetings and some actions that people were talking about. One I witnessed myself of a worker, later head worker, visiting a neighbor alone almost daily but I didn't think anything of it at the time. Only since leaving have I heard stories and have been able to put everything together. I too was brainwashed into ignoring things as I would not be believed and be seen as a trouble maker. The victims also would be too scared to come forward. Most of what I have heard has been since I have left and people sharing their stories and experiences with me. I have encouraged them to take action and some of the perpetrators are dead or very old. A worker having an affair with a woman is not a criminal offense.
|
|
|
Post by to Nathan on Feb 6, 2007 16:51:24 GMT -5
When these exes were 2x2s did they condones such a thing? I don't think so then why they are saying that many workers and friends condones it. [/quote] When I lived in Washington and this person who was released from the Work (He had been in Africa) was in our field, he was moved from meeting to meeting because of his "sexual" problems. My father was elder of a meeting in that area. He had the workers begging many times to let him come to our place for Sunday Morning Meetings. Yes, a book could be written about the guy. Everyone knew of the problem but nobody could really do anything about it. He finally married, adopted some children so he now had children under his own roof to abuse. His wife finally left him and he is still on the loose. He's in his late 70's to early 80's now. Those going to meetings don't like it, but they are still under the constraints of the Workers who will advise or not advise approaching legal authorities. The problem is at it's worst when Workers or friends that have those problems move to other areas and the folks aren't warned to be careful because of the person's prior history.
|
|
|
Post by data on Feb 6, 2007 17:03:37 GMT -5
EXCEPTS from letter: The person in question was removed from the 2x2 ministry in 2001. Areas of Concern: Fresno County, Kern County, Tulare County, Selma and Hanford, CA area,as well as other places in California. Richard (Richard) Middleton is the overseer of this ministry for California for the year 2002-2003 in the Lodi-Placerville area. The ministers of this religion work in pairs, and his companion for the year 2002-2003 is listed as Harold Hilton. Mr. Middleton would have been the person responsible for this expulsion from the ministry, and he undoubtedly is fully aware of whatever accusations Mr. Middleton is not unaware of child molestation in his ministry. I reminded him that, while the ministry advocated the prosecution of lay people for sexual offences, the ministry has on numerous occasions sheltered their own members from prosecution for child molestation. He admitted that was true. ....................................................... 1. The trial was in Santa Clara County, CA. 2. Ruben was charged with three counts, summarized here: a. Penal Code section 288(b)(1) Lewd or lascivious act on a child by force, violence, duress menace and fear. b. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. c. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. 3. He was found guilty of all three counts. .................................................... Elmwood Correctional Facility Inmate Details First Name: RUBEN PFN: DWI200 Last Name: MATA CEN: 06034897 Middle Name: R Housing Facility: ELMWOOD M-4 Sex: M Bail Amount: No Bail Allowed Date Of Birth: 8/11/1945 Release Date: Booking Date: 05/23/2006 eservices.sccgov.org/ovr/find_inmate.doI get nothing from this URL. What's up. This is a great example of verifiable facts being presented. Bob could take a lesson from this.
|
|
|
Post by I agree on Feb 6, 2007 17:13:05 GMT -5
Yeah, just think of how his credibility and his fan base would have gone up if he hadn't stooped to the same methods as those he was criticizing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 17:13:17 GMT -5
Yes I am well aware of the accusations against Sid Lee -- perhaps they had some basis -- I am not sure. What I do know is that he was a political hot potatoe and this capability was effectively squashed by the charges laid against him. These charges were never reported to the proper authorities for justice where a impartial investigation could be conducted -- and I have learned that senior workers cannot be trusted. This was Sid Lees position on the matter as well!
Similar to the Ron Hansson story -- charges never substantiated -- and left to worker discretion -- never reported to authorities as the law requires.
|
|
|
Post by Trust me on Feb 6, 2007 17:17:21 GMT -5
Oh, the Syd Lee "accusations" had basis.
And I'm not a senior worker either! ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 17:32:35 GMT -5
Oh, the Syd Lee "accusations" had basis. And I'm not a senior worker either! ;D Why were they not reported to the proper authorities then? Was he given a fair trial? Or just subjected to superior worker discretion? I have heard different versions.
|
|