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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 24, 2007 20:23:56 GMT -5
The insidiousness of the child sexual abuse problem is that so little is known about it. Predators are usually highly skilled at avoiding detection. RCC statistics is hardly anything to be scoffed at except when your premise is that we are "holier than thou", "thank you Lord that we are not like those wretched Catholics". Their system of celibate, authoritative religious leaders has a lot in common with the worker system. This is hardly generalizing, it is factual. It is "hear no evil, see no evil" folks like yourself who are creating a dangerous risk environment for our children. Predators love this mindset. Therefore, all workers are predators, and all "systems" are are based on these 'facts'. While we are busy generalizing about how I must be a see no evil hear no evil type of person, (because you MUST know, right? You are that smart with your crystal ball and *dazzling* intellect), perhaps you will pause your negative thoughts for long enough to consider that there are many people who choose their path of life and DONT ignore evil when they see it. Stop throwing crap around, and acknowledge the fact that you have a problem with workers and the truth. The child abuse is just a sideshow to your real two sided face. Just because you dont like my views dosen't give you the right to sterotype me. Just because I choose to move on, rather than dwell on and get upset about it, dosent make me ignorant. What would you rather I do, Go to the police and say "these people must be child abusers, investigate them"? And what, Exactly are you doing about it apart from having a go at the workers via the internet? What will it accomplish, people who abuse children should be locked up, but kicking the abusers colleagues is abuse also. Therefore, you are guilty of false accusation. Perhaps one should say "all americans promote invading other peoples countries therefore they are all invaders, therefore we should take them down" when in fact most americans most likely don't want to do what bush wants. Where do the revenge tactics end? When will you stop basing your "facts" on other people, and let them breathe the air they are entitled to? Just because your faith is lost, dosent mean you get to try and take mine down also. Have a look in the mirror, I may be ignorant to you, but what's in your heart? Don't just tell me its Sympathy for the Children either. Its Abusers of Chidren, not Workers and Children. Not the 2x2's, not the truth. Its Child Abusers. Once you get those words checked out in the dictionary, you might realize that the boat you are trying to capsize is the right boat but with a lot of innocent people in it who don't need your rocking. Perhaps you should go to Africa and stop the blood diamonds, and the child/men/women abuse there? Perhaps you should stop swine from raping women and children? Perhaps you should tell Mr Bush and Co to take his armies and shove them where the sun don't shine? But, no you choose to lay siege to thousands of peoples faith and tell them they are part of a conspiracy to sweep the sins of others under the carpet. Like hell. You picked the wrong battle, and if thats the battle you want, then good luck to ya, cause you wont win it, because you *can't*, just like Bush and Co can't win in Iraq because its not about democracy and rebuilding, its about oil and power. You think its about the children? Then stop moaning about workers and the truth, because the truth, you don't even recognize when its right in front you you because of your own fog of war. Have a brilliant day and marvelous battle, I'm sure You will make the world a much better place, when the workers and faith and the truth all come tumbling down because of a few child abusers that were not held accountable for their actions. Yeah, Right.
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Ramona
Junior Member
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Post by Ramona on Oct 24, 2007 20:38:47 GMT -5
Scott: Thanks for sharing, and it's nice to witness the love and respect between you and your brother.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 21:53:58 GMT -5
Whew, that's quite a mouthful! Be angry and sin not. The insidiousness of the child sexual abuse problem is that so little is known about it. Predators are usually highly skilled at avoiding detection. RCC statistics is hardly anything to be scoffed at except when your premise is that we are "holier than thou", "thank you Lord that we are not like those wretched Catholics". Their system of celibate, authoritative religious leaders has a lot in common with the worker system. This is hardly generalizing, it is factual. It is "hear no evil, see no evil" folks like yourself who are creating a dangerous risk environment for our children. Predators love this mindset. Therefore, all workers are predators, and all "systems" are are based on these 'facts'. While we are busy generalizing about how I must be a see no evil hear no evil type of person, (because you MUST know, right? You are that smart with your crystal ball and *dazzling* intellect), perhaps you will pause your negative thoughts for long enough to consider that there are many people who choose their path of life and DONT ignore evil when they see it. Stop throwing crap around, and acknowledge the fact that you have a problem with workers and the truth. The child abuse is just a sideshow to your real two sided face. Just because you dont like my views dosen't give you the right to sterotype me. Just because I choose to move on, rather than dwell on and get upset about it, dosent make me ignorant. What would you rather I do, Go to the police and say "these people must be child abusers, investigate them"? And what, Exactly are you doing about it apart from having a go at the workers via the internet? What will it accomplish, people who abuse children should be locked up, but kicking the abusers colleagues is abuse also. Therefore, you are guilty of false accusation. Perhaps one should say "all americans promote invading other peoples countries therefore they are all invaders, therefore we should take them down" when in fact most americans most likely don't want to do what bush wants. Where do the revenge tactics end? When will you stop basing your "facts" on other people, and let them breathe the air they are entitled to? Just because your faith is lost, dosent mean you get to try and take mine down also. Have a look in the mirror, I may be ignorant to you, but what's in your heart? Don't just tell me its Sympathy for the Children either. Its Abusers of Chidren, not Workers and Children. Not the 2x2's, not the truth. Its Child Abusers. Once you get those words checked out in the dictionary, you might realize that the boat you are trying to capsize is the right boat but with a lot of innocent people in it who don't need your rocking. Perhaps you should go to Africa and stop the blood diamonds, and the child/men/women abuse there? Perhaps you should stop swine from raping women and children? Perhaps you should tell Mr Bush and Co to take his armies and shove them where the sun don't shine? But, no you choose to lay siege to thousands of peoples faith and tell them they are part of a conspiracy to sweep the sins of others under the carpet. Like hell. You picked the wrong battle, and if thats the battle you want, then good luck to ya, cause you wont win it, because you *can't*, just like Bush and Co can't win in Iraq because its not about democracy and rebuilding, its about oil and power. You think its about the children? Then stop moaning about workers and the truth, because the truth, you don't even recognize when its right in front you you because of your own fog of war. Have a brilliant day and marvelous battle, I'm sure You will make the world a much better place, when the workers and faith and the truth all come tumbling down because of a few child abusers that were not held accountable for their actions. Yeah, Right.
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Post by mortified on Oct 24, 2007 21:58:07 GMT -5
If you believe the only way to stop this is to report it to the authorities, there is no need for the "however" and whatever follows it.
I guess we will have to disagree on this one.
I have seen a lot of posts here talking about protecting the children and getting things out into the open but I have yet to see one person who claims to know about a case of child abuse reporting it to the authorities.
I believe we have seen at least one case here that was reported.
No, they get away with it because it is not reported to the authorities when it happens. You can gossip about all the cases you wish here but it will not stop one criminal from continuing with what they have been doing.
No, it will not stop the criminals but maybe it will serve to make more unsuspecting people aware of a serious problem.
Does it really matter if the children are related or not?
Doesn't matter one bit. If you notice I did also add in other children that may not be related.
It is called education. You can not call what is posted here facts. If they were they could be reported to the authorities.
Yes some of what is posted here are facts. Just because there is not anyone close to the situation that will report the incident doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Read what has been posted. If you didn't think the workers could be guilty would you be inclined to believe what is written?
I was not speaking specifically about just the people on the board here. According to statistics-each person knows at least 200 more people. The fact that someone may read about it here and pass it along may make a difference.
Hmmm - I thought it was you who implied that Jesus would not just walk by. My error.[/quote][/color]
No you were correct. I did say that, however, it doesn't mean I know the master plan. It only means that the scripture teaches us our responsibility. It is my personal opinion that Jesus would not have just turned away according to God's word.
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Post by mortified on Oct 24, 2007 22:33:27 GMT -5
wow, lines you are letting your anger take over and showing your true colours. Maybe you need to cool down and get a grip.
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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 25, 2007 0:13:14 GMT -5
Oh I'm very sorry, Am I a little too direct?
The workers wont answer your questions?
Perhaps you will answer mine.
Lets call the mood, "calm".
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nomorelinesinthesand
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Post by nomorelinesinthesand on Oct 25, 2007 1:11:40 GMT -5
Actually you know what, I'm just going to leave you to it.
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Post by epoh on Oct 25, 2007 9:37:50 GMT -5
Once you get those words checked out in the dictionary, you might realize that the boat you are trying to capsize is the right boat but with a lot of innocent people in it who don't need your rocking.
Perhaps you should go to Africa and stop the blood diamonds, and the child/men/women abuse there?
Perhaps you should stop swine from raping women and children?
Perhaps you should tell Mr Bush and Co to take his armies and shove them where the sun don't shine?
But, no you choose to lay siege to thousands of peoples faith and tell them they are part of a conspiracy to sweep the sins of others under the carpet.Have a brilliant day and marvelous battle, I'm sure You will make the world a much better place, when the workers and faith and the truth all come tumbling down because of a few child abusers that were not held accountable for their actions.
To linesinthesand: Wow. I must say that it is very difficult to hear the truth. The truth about leaders in your faith Community that have sinned. That have done aweful things. That have lied. That have abused children. That have exploited their power and authority. I get it. I understand. It's like a slap in the face and it makes most people very angry. Some, so very angry, that they lash out at the wrong people. It's human nature to lash out at others instead of taking a look at how we were dooped. How we didn't see it coming. How we were tricked. I challenge you to accept that sexual abuse has and is happening in "the truth". And people in the truth have swept it under the rug out of fear. When you get into a boat with other believers, even if you are innocent, when the boat gets rocked.......EVERYONE feels it. Whether they have sinned or not. It's called the Body Of Christ. I can't see that anyone want's to capsize your "truth" boat, but everyone in the boat is going to suffer for the sins of even just one. We are ALL accountable for the weaker ones in our society. Period. It's not "sympathy" for children..........it's called being an accoutnable adult. You are right......we should be concerned about Africa, our President, and the raping of women and children. But this is a TMB. Those other issues are being fought in different avenues. If "the truth" comes tumbling down because child abusers were not held accountable................THEN SO BE IT! It won't FALL because people are spekaing out against it. If it falls, it will be because of the sin of it's leaders. Period. Put the blame and accountability where it goes. Within the sin of the leaders. I'm sorry that you are so angry and bitter. People are simply asking for justice.
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2007 17:40:05 GMT -5
I believe we have seen at least one case here that was reported. I believe the case was reported to the authorities long before it was mentioned here.
Actually removing the criminals is a far better way to protect the children.
You cannot hide behind the distance shadow. Anyone who knows the facts can report abuse. That means if there were facts reported here about someone in CA and you live in NY you could report it to the CA authorities. Face it - it isn't reported because they simply are not facts but stories. If you know them to be facts - report them.
I was not speaking specifically about just the people on the board here. According to statistics-each person knows at least 200 more people. The fact that someone may read about it here and pass it along may make a difference.
Please let us know the source of those statistics.
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Post by mortified on Oct 26, 2007 6:50:50 GMT -5
I believe we have seen at least one case here that was reported.I believe the case was reported to the authorities long before it was mentioned here. Actually removing the criminals is a far better way to protect the children. You cannot hide behind the distance shadow. Anyone who knows the facts can report abuse. That means if there were facts reported here about someone in CA and you live in NY you could report it to the CA authorities. Face it - it isn't reported because they simply are not facts but stories. If you know them to be facts - report them. I was not speaking specifically about just the people on the board here. According to statistics-each person knows at least 200 more people. The fact that someone may read about it here and pass it along may make a difference.
Please let us know the source of those statistics. I think at this point I am going to have to say that I agree to disagree. I think we are both very concerned about the children and both of us agree that it should be reported right away. I think that where we disagree is our opinions on how far to discuss it with others. I understand and respect your opinions even though I do not agree with them.
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Post by rational on Oct 26, 2007 14:55:50 GMT -5
But although you want to help these children you seem to be completely oblivious to the potential damage that you are causing to the children, their parents, and the people you are gossiping about with little or no proof. At least not enough proof to file a claim with any agency that can actually do something about the problem. The sad part is that all of this gossip is not going to change the minds of a single parent or child regarding who they trust. And if you get just one case wrong you, and the gossiping people on this board, will be labeled as such and anything said will be disregarded. Think of how much more powerful the message about Tim being arrested and then being able to go to the parents and state the facts was rather than just a group of yentas making unsupported claims in the night. I know you will say the claims are supported but, again, if that is the case then report the criminal and get them taken away from children. If you know (with real facts) a case and you are not reporting it then you are in effect protecting the criminal. If you don't have the facts then this is just gossip. BTW - do you have a source for the statistics you quoted? I believe we have seen at least one case here that was reported.I believe the case was reported to the authorities long before it was mentioned here. Actually removing the criminals is a far better way to protect the children. You cannot hide behind the distance shadow. Anyone who knows the facts can report abuse. That means if there were facts reported here about someone in CA and you live in NY you could report it to the CA authorities. Face it - it isn't reported because they simply are not facts but stories. If you know them to be facts - report them. I was not speaking specifically about just the people on the board here. According to statistics-each person knows at least 200 more people. The fact that someone may read about it here and pass it along may make a difference.
Please let us know the source of those statistics. I think at this point I am going to have to say that I agree to disagree. I think we are both very concerned about the children and both of us agree that it should be reported right away. I think that where we disagree is our opinions on how far to discuss it with others. I understand and respect your opinions even though I do not agree with them.
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Post by mortified on Oct 26, 2007 20:13:14 GMT -5
But although you want to help these children you seem to be completely oblivious to the potential damage that you are causing to the children, their parents, and the people you are gossiping about with little or no proof. At least not enough proof to file a claim with any agency that can actually do something about the problem.I'm sorry but there is no potential danger to anyone by discussing the problem here. There are no names mentioned at all for the children or parents. The sad part is that all of this gossip is not going to change the minds of a single parent or child regarding who they trust. And if you get just one case wrong you, and the gossiping people on this board, will be labeled as such and anything said will be disregarded.Not true. I personally know of 2 professing families that have a whole new outlook on trusting a worker with their children alone. I think maybe this board might be much more powerful that you suspect. Think of how much more powerful the message about Tim being arrested and then being able to go to the parents and state the facts was rather than just a group of yentas making unsupported claims in the night.I agree it is a powerful message and it continues to be discussed here. It has worked wonders for opening up many eyes. I know you will say the claims are supported but, again, if that is the case then report the criminal and get them taken away from children. If you know (with real facts) a case and you are not reporting it then you are in effect protecting the criminal. If you don't have the facts then this is just gossip.Again, what you don't seem to understand and I will repeat it again. There are parents out there that are willing to let a child abuse incident be swept under the rug in order to keep everything from blowing up when they are asked to do that by a head worker. They really believe it is what God wants them to do. I can report a child abuse case but when the parents are confronted and deny knowing anything about it --then it is over. The worker gets relocated or goes home to take care of family and shows up a couple of years later in another state to abuse again. BTW - do you have a source for the statistics you quoted?You know, that was said in a class by a professor and I did try to find a hard copy of the reference but could not find it. I have it in my notes from the lecture but no reference. I looked in the text and didn't find it there either. I did find an article online that makes similiar claims but states 290 people instead of 200. Here is the link for that article if you are really interested. www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20020324peopleknow0324p1.asp
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Post by random on Oct 26, 2007 22:18:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry but there is no potential danger to anyone by discussing the problem here. There are no names mentioned at all for the children or parents.
There is enough information being posted so those involved would know. In the background there are PMs and email being sent that are spreading the same information, unsubstantiated. Scott has stated that people send him stories all the time. Facts? Nope - stories. Not true. I personally know of 2 professing families that have a whole new outlook on trusting a worker with their children alone. I think maybe this board might be much more powerful that you suspect.
I think this board may be able to cause more damage than you can imagine. Again, what you don't seem to understand and I will repeat it again. There are parents out there that are willing to let a child abuse incident be swept under the rug in order to keep everything from blowing up when they are asked to do that by a head worker. They really believe it is what God wants them to do. I can report a child abuse case but when the parents are confronted and deny knowing anything about it --then it is over. The worker gets relocated or goes home to take care of family and shows up a couple of years later in another state to abuse again. From this I am guessing you have never had to deal with an accusation made to CPS (or whatever it is called). Parents sweeping things under the rug are criminals as well as the person who committed the crime. If you have facts and report it and the parents try to hide it they will be charged with child endangerment. Filing a report starts more wheels in motion than you can imagine, especially if you continue to follow up. Of course, if all you are able to present the agency with is gossip and hearsay then what you say is true. You know, that was said in a class by a professor and I did try to find a hard copy of the reference but could not find it. I have it in my notes from the lecture but no reference. I looked in the text and didn't find it there either. I did find an article online that makes similiar claims but states 290 people instead of 200. Here is the link for that article if you are really interested.
Interesting take on the people that we know! Thanks.
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Post by juliette on Oct 26, 2007 23:01:07 GMT -5
Rational:
I'm interested to know how you think this board can do damage, especially in regards to child molestation. I, personally, think that if people know that sweeping things under the rug isn't as easy in this age of information, that they would be more inclined to follow proper procedures and call the authorities vs. moving the offender to another area. There was a time when no one would know, but it's becoming harder to hide things now. And then there's the issue of moving an abuser to a new area to live among unsuspecting friends. I'm guessing that that practice will be harder to pull off from now on as well.
Here's a little tidbit... the family of the victim in MN only knew that a letter had been sent to the MN friends because they saw it posted on this board. This is a letter that THEY had been asking be sent out so that other families who had interaction w/Tim would know the danger, but no action was taken when they asked.
Juli
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Ramona
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Post by Ramona on Oct 26, 2007 23:51:37 GMT -5
Sadly enough, there has been sexual misconduct thru out the ages. The end result is that when someone is violated, the odds are that the person who violated them is a product of sexual molestation. The sickness just keeps repeating itself. Because of the nature of the "crime", it is easy for the activity to go on for years without ever coming out in the open. I don't feel the need to be graphic, but possibly some people need to know just how ugly it all is. For those individuals who have been violated, it's a lifetime of feeling pain and low self esteem and an inability to trust. If it happens to be a girl who was molested, she's thankful she's not pregnant and if she were, the damage continues if she is forced to have an abortion. For the young boys/men who have been violated, they go thru a lifetime of confusion as well.
Somehow, someway, anyone who violates another person AND any parent or loved one who knowingly is aware of such misdeeds, needs to know that first of all, if and when they get caught, it's out there for the world to see. As far as this board goes, there is the wonderful possibility that by this case coming out in the open, that it will allow someone out there to reach out for the help they may be needing.
For those of us who profess to be Christian, it is mandatory that we offer a place for discussion without libel, but with the promise of hope for those that suffer.
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Post by juliette on Oct 27, 2007 0:36:42 GMT -5
It seems that I have more to say on this issue, especially in response to the posts of Rational and others. There have been details about the MN case, and our involvement with this case that I did not immediately share with the general public. I have to say, that I am grateful that Lyle and Craig listened to what we had to say, and sent a letter out advising MN friends to have discussions with their children who may have been alone with Tim. So what I am going to share here is not meant to take away from my appreciation for what they have done, because it was more than has been done before in these situations.
But.... the situation in MN was not handled entirely the way it should have been.
The abuse was not reported until 5 days after it happened. The parents of the abuser called Lyle (at convention in another state) instead of calling the authorities first. I do not know why. Lyle advised them that it was their right to call the authorities, but that they shouldn't because it would be better for Tim if he turned himself in. The parents and Lyle had more than one conversation about this. In the meantime, Tim's companion (Craig) learned of the incident from Tim, and tells him to turn himself in but did not call the authorities. During this time period, Tim was making calls to the family of the victim threatening to kill himself. At one point, the family was fearful for their safety given Tim's instability and left their house to spend the night with relatives. They were also even more hesitant to call the authorities because they were afraid Tim will kill himself.
Eventually, Tim agreed to turned himself in, but was allowed by Craig to pack up his things and drive to a relative's house first. So 5 days pass. I'm not sure what happened first. A family member of the victim learned of the issue and either picked up the phone to call the police herself or picked up the phone and handed it to the father. I'm not sure if Tim turned himself in because he knew the police had been called, or if the two event are unrelated.
During the next month or so, the extended family of the victim asked Lyle again and again to somehow notify MN families of the danger that Tim had posed, and to ask families to talk to their children. This family had unfortunately had a prior experience with sexual abuse, and were therefore very aware of the dangers that pedophiles pose. Their requests were ignored and written off as unrealistic.
I found out about the situation about 6 weeks after it occurred. I was very concerned because we were not told about Tim, and my children had spent time alone with him, something that both sets of our parents were aware of. Since we had left the fellowship, we were outside of the gossip chain and did not know until I talked to a friend who still attends meetings. When I asked my dad why he didn't tell me, he said that he had asked Craig about it when he found out Tim was in jail for child molestation, and Craig told him that it was a one time thing (not true) and the Tim had turned himself in (stretching the truth a bit). My dad then decided that he did not need to tell me. My parents also discussed that my daughter (the same age as the victim) was very strong physically and mentally (true, but irrelevant) and if something had happened with Tim, she would have already told me.
So I called Lyle and asked him to meet with us. My husband and Scott Ross joined me at this meeting. In that meeting, I asked him and Craig about the time and asked why the authorities hadn't been called earlier. This part of the conversation basically went no where. Then I told them that I thought that all families who had contact with Tim and whose children may have been in danger of being abused should be contacted. I told him that if he didn't do this, that I would. Scott them showed Lyle a stack of print outs from this board about the subject, with over 1,000 hits in a few days. This seemed to get Lyle's attention, and he asked quite a few questions about the board and who used it. Scott impressed on him that many people were watching this situation and waiting to see what would be done. Scott also gave Lyle copies of other people's personal stories of sexual abuse at the hands of workers that had gone unreported and where the abuser continued to abuse. Reuben Mata's case was one.
We then told Lyle that we would like to hear from him in the next few days about what he was going to do. He called me two days later informing me that a letter similar to the one I had drafted as an example was going to be sent out. We received our copy a few days later.
A few days later I received a call from a family member of the victim thanking me for what we had done. She had read about the letter being sent out on this board, which someone had just told her about. Until she read it on the board, she did not know that a letter was being sent out. It was at this point that I learned more about the details of the situation, including that Lyle had asked the family not to report Tim but to let Tim turn himself in, and the details about Tim calling the family and threatening to kill himself.
I'm posting this information now because I'd like people to see that outside scrutiny can make a difference, and that sometimes people will do the right thing because they know others are watching.
I would have had the same reaction if I had learned of a specific case of abuse in a school or in my neighborhood. It is not my intent to simply point out flaws in the religion of the friends and workers. My daughter played with the victim in MN at convention, and my children were alone with this abuser. I felt very strongly that parents needed to have information to protect their children, and to get them help if needed. I haven't heard the outcome yet, but I had heard from the family that there is another girl in another part of the state that may have been abused by Tim. The parents only put the details together about the changes they had seen in their daughter that had even caused them to bring her to a therapist when they learned about Tim.
So why are some of us sticking our noses where they don't belong? I feel that as a mother and a Christian, it is my duty to try and bring about some change. We all have our own backyards, and I guess this is mine. Yes, parents should simply call the police when their child is abused. But if that doesn't happen, are we all off the hook? I don't think so. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I learn that a child was molested, that the authorities weren't called and that the abuser is still roaming free, I feel compelled to act. Once enough details have been accumulated, I will call the authorities myself. Something needs to happen to change the pattern of cover-up, which simply aids and abets the abuser. And make no mistake, cover-ups have occurred and are still occurring.
So I think this board is a valuable tool. In the MN case, I think the attention this case got on this board made Lyle and Craig a little more willing to listen to us. And when I call an overseer (which I imagine I will be doing in some of these cases) to ask him to report child abuse instead of transferring an abuser into a new group of unsuspecting families, I will certainly use this board as an example of how increasingly difficult it will be to cover up these situations in the information age. Can anyone say that the Catholic Church would not have started to clean up it's act if the media hadn't been all over the issue?
I understand that other people have different opinions on this. I have friends that go to meeting who have told me that some people were upset that Lyle sent out the letter. Apparently, they didn't want to know about unpleasant things happening within the fellowship. And others have concerns about a "witch hunt". I understand these concerns. I, personally, do not pass on information that I receive that is not substantiated. And the people I've been working with, namely Cherie and Scott have the same policy. But once we get enough facts, we will take appropriate action, which means contacting the authorities. I also believe that overseers stop the pattern of cover-up, so I plan on asking overseers in situations that we learn about to begin handling these matters appropriately. Sexual abuse will happen, unfortunately there are bad people out there. But much pain and misery can be avoided if abusers are immediately reported, and that is our goal.
Juli
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2007 0:49:00 GMT -5
Rational: I'm interested to know how you think this board can do damage, especially in regards to child molestation. Being falsely accused of such a crime is damage. Having gossip posted on a public message board can certainly damage a family. As was stated above, if you have facts about things being swept under the rug why not file a repost with the proper authorities? I work with CPS. Anyone with the facts can file a report. The agency, by law, must follow up. Although there are problems with CPS, in general if they are given the facts the investigators and very good about getting the whole story. If no one tells, no one knows. If someone knows they need to report it or they are supporting the criminal. This would be really tough to do once an investigation has been started. As many have stated, why, if people know about abuse, are they willing to post it here and email it and PM it to strangers but are not willing to report it to the authorities? My guess is that many people claim to "know" of these things but the vast majority are just repeating gossip. This doesn't ring true. If they asked the workers to send the letter and it was not sent, why didn't they send the letter? Thanks for the tidbit. But they already knew the contents of the letter. The message board added nothing. It seems that you think gossip delivered to a larger number of people is somehow more powerful or less harmful than the same gossip whispered in private. Here's something to think about - How may people do we both know who have been hurt by gossip?
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Post by Observing on Oct 27, 2007 2:00:12 GMT -5
I'm posting this information now because I'd like people to see that outside scrutiny can make a difference, and that sometimes people will do the right thing because they know others are watching. This case is very different from the others being discussed because the facts were known and the authorities were notified. Notified long before in was known on this message board. Anyone who felt as strongly as you do could have written the letter and sent it out. No, they are not off the hook. If you know of child abuse call the authorities. If they are not facts that will allow that action - it is gossip. I have seen several cases mentioned about child abuse. In how many cases have the authorities been called? Educate the parents and the children. Why did you feel you could not write the letter if you felt people should be informed? If you have the facts why would you call the overseer? If you know the facts submit the report. And the media was all over the cases where there were charges placed - not speculating about what might have happened. It has been made known that there has been a lot of information exchanged. How many cases have been reported to the authorities? So you do have facts to accuse someone? Are these included in the number that have been reported to the authorities? How do you plan to educate the parents and children so this will happen? I am opposed to child abuse in any form by any person. My concern also extends to the unfounded implications made on message boards like this. Educating parents and children about abuse is the way to stop criminals.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2007 5:01:54 GMT -5
"Educating parents and children about abuse is the way to stop criminals."
Educating parents and children will certainly go a long way towards raising awareness and reducing opportunities for child abuse occurring. However, it will NOT stop child abuse criminals. It WILL restrict them.
Education, although highly important, not only for parents but for ALL Friends and Workers, is ONLY one part of the answer (n.b. I say answer- not solution, for there will always be those cases that slip through the net). Protection is the best answer. It begins with Education but also includes the equally important issues of Prevention.
In a unique way such as the Friends and Workers fellowship which provides unbelievably unique opportunities and environments for child abuse to occur by the few miscreants amonst the workers, extra special preventative measures must be designed and adopted by the church.
Most traditional churches recognise the need, both legal and moral, to adopt strong measures to protect the valuable and vulnerable little ones in their midst. They have prescribed format and codes of practice to follow. WE all have a responsibility to protect the children of the church. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. How anyone can renege on this responsibility defies my understanding, especially from those who would lap up the words "Love Thy Neighbour !" This WAY should start by following the examples of what other churches are reasonably, morally, legally and rightly doing to address these issues, not looking for ways to protect the ministry and keep it arms length from doing its "God given responsibilities" to do the proper thing in these matters.
In addition to following "standard" Duty of Care" and reporting responsibilities, the Work seriously needs to consider doing the following in light of their unique relationship with the children and other vulnerable persons within the fellowship.
1) Standard criminal background checks for those in and applying for positions with the ministry. In almost all cases these are likely to have a negative result and superficially this might seem like a waste of time. However, they are inexpensive, sensible and protect the church leadership by showing they are living up to their responsibilities (legally and morally) in ensuring as far as possible, those with questionale backgrounds are not admitted to, or are removed from, the ministry. Such a procedure, since it is widely adopted and a recognised standard within society as a whole would certainly help protect the Work if ever legally challenged and would show it to be acting responsibly.
2) Until such checks are carried out on individual workers, they should not be permitted to stay in the homes where there are children, young single women or other vulnerable people.
3) After checks have been satisfactorily carried out, Workers should as far as possible only stay in homes where there are vulnerable people when they are accompanied by a companion. This protects the Workers as much as any potentially vulnerable persons. It helps prevent and counter any false accusations, misinterpretations of conduct, etc.
4) When staying at the homes of the friends, Workers, except in exceptional circumstances, should never sleep in the same bed. They must have separate beds, and if possible separate bedrooms. This can protect young vulnerable workers from any older domineering companions, to whom they must show obedience and deference to. Privacy in a world of life under the spotlight is essential in order to release stresses and tensions which might otherwise come to the fore in adverse and unexplainable ways.
5) Any allegations, both past and present, against any workers regarding child abuse or sexual misconduct should be investigated forthwith, without delay. Until each individual matter is resolved, those who are accused should be immediately suspended from the work, or at least their activities severely restricted, until cleared.
6) Workers must take on board their Christian and Social duty to immediately report any allegations of sexual misconduct to their overseers (even those made against themselves) and any allegations of child abuse or abuse to certain other vulnerable persons to the appropriate authorities. Failure to do so should result in mandatory suspension from the work.
7) Allegations or reports of persons having a TV or having cut their hair must not take precedence to any of the foregoing.
Furthermore. investigating cases and bringing those guilty of child abuse etc, to justice will have a large deterrent factor. It will also instill confidence in those who have been wronged, and who in turn may focus that wrong upon the perpetrator rather than the system. It will also allow victims a greater opportunity to heal and eventually forgive their transgressors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2007 7:55:39 GMT -5
Good list ram. I realize you imply this in #2 below, but there needs to be a policy that goes beyond workers staying in homes with another worker for a check and balance. The policy should look like this: "All workers must decline all opportunities to be alone with underaged children. All interactions with children should preferentially occur in the presence of at least one parent." In our part of the world, sister workers (even when accompanied by other sister workers) wouldn't even be seen anywhere near the home of a single man. In fact, a pair of sister workers won't meet a single man for lunch in a public place. Yet the workers have no policy on being alone with vulnerable and impressionable children. If both workers and parents were made aware of this policy, I believe that abuse would have a very difficult environment in which to occur. "Educating parents and children about abuse is the way to stop criminals." Educating parents and children will certainly go a long way towards raising awareness and reducing opportunities for child abuse occurring. However, it will NOT stop child abuse criminals. It WILL restrict them. Education, although highly important, not only for parents but for ALL Friends and Workers, is ONLY one part of the answer (n.b. I say answer- not solution, for there will always be those cases that slip through the net). Protection is the best answer. It begins with Education but also includes the equally important issues of Prevention. In a unique way such as the Friends and Workers fellowship which provides unbelievably unique opportunities and environments for child abuse to occur by the few miscreants amonst the workers, extra special preventative measures must be designed and adopted by the church. Most traditional churches recognise the need, both legal and moral, to adopt strong measures to protect the valuable and vulnerable little ones in their midst. They have prescribed format and codes of practice to follow. WE all have a responsibility to protect the children of the church. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. How anyone can renege on this responsibility defies my understanding, especially from those who would lap up the words "Love Thy Neighbour !" This WAY should start by following the examples of what other churches are reasonably, morally, legally and rightly doing to address these issues, not looking for ways to protect the ministry and keep it arms length from doing its "God given responsibilities" to do the proper thing in these matters. In addition to following "standard" Duty of Care" and reporting responsibilities, the Work seriously needs to consider doing the following in light of their unique relationship with the children and other vulnerable persons within the fellowship. 1) Standard criminal background checks for those in and applying for positions with the ministry. In almost all cases these are likely to have a negative result and superficially this might seem like a waste of time. However, they are inexpensive, sensible and protect the church leadership by showing they are living up to their responsibilities (legally and morally) in ensuring as far as possible, those with questionale backgrounds are not admitted to, or are removed from, the ministry. Such a procedure, since it is widely adopted and a recognised standard within society as a whole would certainly help protect the Work if ever legally challenged and would show it to be acting responsibly. 2) Until such checks are carried out on individual workers, they should not be permitted to stay in the homes where there are children, young single women or other vulnerable people. 3) After checks have been satisfactorily carried out, Workers should as far as possible only stay in homes where there are vulnerable people when they are accompanied by a companion. This protects the Workers as much as any potentially vulnerable persons. It helps prevent and counter any false accusations, misinterpretations of conduct, etc. 4) When staying at the homes of the friends, Workers, except in exceptional circumstances, should never sleep in the same bed. They must have separate beds, and if possible separate bedrooms. This can protect young vulnerable workers from any older domineering companions, to whom they must show obedience and deference to. Privacy in a world of life under the spotlight is essential in order to release stresses and tensions which might otherwise come to the fore in adverse and unexplainable ways. 5) Any allegations, both past and present, against any workers regarding child abuse or sexual misconduct should be investigated forthwith, without delay. Until each individual matter is resolved, those who are accused should be immediately suspended from the work, or at least their activities severely restricted, until cleared. 6) Workers must take on board their Christian and Social duty to immediately report any allegations of sexual misconduct to their overseers (even those made against themselves) and any allegations of child abuse or abuse to certain other vulnerable persons to the appropriate authorities. Failure to do so should result in mandatory suspension from the work. 7) Allegations or reports of persons having a TV or having cut their hair must not take precedence to any of the foregoing. Furthermore. investigating cases and bringing those guilty of child abuse etc, to justice will have a large deterrent factor. It will also instill confidence in those who have been wronged, and who in turn may focus that wrong upon the perpetrator rather than the system. It will also allow victims a greater opportunity to heal and eventually forgive their transgressors.
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Post by spanky on Oct 27, 2007 7:56:21 GMT -5
Does anyone have a picture of Tim Severud? I remember his name but I can't put a face on him! Also, how old was he?
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Post by BR on Oct 27, 2007 8:23:30 GMT -5
Hello, I have never been with the friends and worker group but I did go to a few gospel meetings once. During that time I was told by a worker to "not say anything bad about the group to my spouse." I really HAD nothing bad to say actually, so the conclusion I came to as to why the worker said this is that they felt that since they are the "only way" , I would be affecting his eternal salvation if I said anything to influence him against them. If this is the prevailing attitude....I can see why abuse within this group could be very difficult to deal with. The people, although very upset about any injustice, may be terrified into inaction for fear of condemning someone or themselves to eternal torment if they don't join, leave or are expelled from the group as a result.
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Ramona
Junior Member
Posts: 155
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Post by Ramona on Oct 27, 2007 8:29:51 GMT -5
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first, we practice to deceive"..............
Juliette: Thanks for your most recent post.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2007 9:39:45 GMT -5
Clearday,
re :-
I realize you imply this in #2 below, but there needs to be a policy that goes beyond workers staying in homes with another worker for a check and balance. The policy should look like this:
"All workers must decline all opportunities to be alone with underaged children. All interactions with children should preferentially occur in the presence of at least one parent."
I concur with the good sense in this and thanks for pointing it out. I tended not to consider this aspect too much at this stage as this is generally standard advice in the outside world for these situations. A good start could be made by obtaining copies of practices and procedures adopted by the traditional churches which would give the basic advice (at the click of a button these days - all the work done for them) then adding to this to prescribe for the unique circumstances the workers would find themselves in due to their staying in homes of the friends etc.
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Post by eye opener on Oct 27, 2007 11:18:00 GMT -5
I have felt that what has been posted on the board concerning
child molestation has been helpful to me..it has been an eye-
opener for me because I never thought much about molestation
in regards to the workers and friends....so know I am more aware
I think many people that have posted have many valid points
even tho they differ .....I agree that its a problem that should
be addressed..not swept under the rug..not moving workers
around etc...it is a horrible and sickening crime..enjoyed Juliette's
reply #156
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Oct 27, 2007 12:57:06 GMT -5
God Bless you, Juli.
It is very clear if you & Scott hadn't taken the right path; this too would have been swept under the rug and the abuse would have continued.
I feel so bad for sex abuse victims as it seems the first thought of parents is to protect the worker & not their children. And, why? Aren't the children more important than a worker?
God Bless
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Post by Please explain on Oct 27, 2007 13:19:11 GMT -5
God Bless you, Juli. It is very clear if you & Scott hadn't taken the right path; this too would have been swept under the rug and the abuse would have continued. I feel so bad for sex abuse victims as it seems the first thought of parents is to protect the worker & not their children. And, why? Aren't the children more important than a worker? God Bless How is this very clear? Not to detract from what Juli and Scott did, Tim has turned himself in before they took any steps. It is difficult to sweep an arrest under the rug.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2007 13:30:33 GMT -5
Yes ram, it's easy to forget that what is standard good sense rules in the "outside" world doesn't always apply to an insular group like the f&ws. I would expect that there are many professing parents who would be very happy for their kids to spend time alone with a worker, hoping that something good would rub off, and be totally oblivious to the potential danger in that. Clearday, re :- I realize you imply this in #2 below, but there needs to be a policy that goes beyond workers staying in homes with another worker for a check and balance. The policy should look like this: "All workers must decline all opportunities to be alone with underaged children. All interactions with children should preferentially occur in the presence of at least one parent." I concur with the good sense in this and thanks for pointing it out. I tended not to consider this aspect too much at this stage as this is generally standard advice in the outside world for these situations. A good start could be made by obtaining copies of practices and procedures adopted by the traditional churches which would give the basic advice (at the click of a button these days - all the work done for them) then adding to this to prescribe for the unique circumstances the workers would find themselves in due to their staying in homes of the friends etc.
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