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Post by EternalShores on Aug 31, 2007 13:07:30 GMT -5
I read monica's post again I did do not agree. I think what she is trying to say is that she is glad the letter went out and that folks should no longer use the Tim situation as another reason to trash the cult.
What she might be saying is that the right thing was done and we are and should be thankful and should not beat the subject to death.
Could other cases been handled better? Sure. Were other abusers covered up? Probably. But Lyle has done right by this situation and hopefully going forward others will follow his example.
The spirit on this board is sure ugly at times.
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Post by yeah right on Aug 31, 2007 13:13:32 GMT -5
People like monica are upset that the right thing was done. According to her, the "exes no longer have a leg to stand on." In a manner of speaking, she's right. Let me explain: Exes ask that the 2x2 workers do things openly and honestly. That has been one of our primary complaints for years. Now, finally, we have an instance where two brother workers (Lyle and Craig) have openly and honestly dealt with this situation. And I, too, (dirty ex that I am) add my kudos to their action. So now that this has happened, we really don't have a leg to stand on, so to speak, since open and honest dialog has taken place. Lyle and Craig are to be commended. Monica needs to find a hole in the dirt and crawl in. Yep. Two workers (out of the hundreds there are)... do what is right (in contrast to the usual coverup)... on this one issue (compared to the many other issues out there). I guess if the molestations of Tim Severud is the only thing you care about then you can leave the F&W alone; You can even leave this board! If on the other hand you care about other issues (other molestations, various instances of sexual misconduct, matters of financial responsibility, matters of spiritual abuse, matters of false doctrine (<avoiding the urge to list 30 items here>), and a host of other problems in the F&W church) not a whole lot has changed.
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Post by as I c it on Aug 31, 2007 13:41:03 GMT -5
yeah right,
We rejoice--yes, rejoice!!!--with pride in our leaders (for once) on this board.
Can we not enjoy the moment--even for a few days--to see that a change in policy has come into existence???
When I first came to this board, rjkee's story greatly depressed me--and angered me--for months! Nothing fueled my anger more against my church! And it's behaviour toward those who'd been done wrong to.
I realize now that in those days it was very common to blame the victim. Women were blamed for getting raped. Wives for getting beaten. Children for being abused.
They--all (somehow) brought it upon themselves. And deserved it. (or so thought our brain-dead society).
Now our society has changed: with new knowledge putting the blame for the behaviour where it belongs. And with abuse being seen for what it is: anger and HATE: and very sick minds and souls--that would take pride and pleasure in their ability to use their strength and their minds and their power to hurt the powerless and the weaker and the defenseless!
(And of course, if you blame the victim for causing it...then it only made sense to move/separate the abuser and the abused from each other--and the problem would....just...disappear). Since, of course, it was the victim who "caused it to happen"...
Or--maybe it really was all done to protect our church's image...(I don't know what their reasoning was back then). But I fully agree. It was handled wrongly back then.
However--"today" they did right! And they did it sooooo very right! Let us enjoy this moment...
And tomorrow we can return to all the other 3o+ issues on your list...okay...
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Post by Yeah right on Aug 31, 2007 14:14:45 GMT -5
We rejoice--yes, rejoice!!!--with pride in our leaders (for once) on this board. Two out of how many leaders? Enjoy it all you want. I wouldn't stand in the way of that. But a little perspective would be nice. A change in policy? Where? How can you have a change in policy when there is no policy to begin with? At most, history may remember it as having "set a new precedent" but for now, it's nothing more than "unusual behavior" and "an isolated incident". LOL. I guess Monica is right. The TMB began outliving its' purpose yesterday. Ha ha ha ha. Go right ahead. Enjoy it. Enjoy the glow of your gold halo.
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Post by motives on Aug 31, 2007 14:18:15 GMT -5
Now our society has changed: with new knowledge putting the blame for the behaviour where it belongs. And with abuse being seen for what it is: anger and HATE: and very sick minds and souls--that would take pride and pleasure in their ability to use their strength and their minds and their power to hurt the powerless and the weaker and the defenseless!
(And of course, if you blame the victim for causing it...then it only made sense to move/separate the abuser and the abused from each other--and the problem would....just...disappear). Since, of course, it was the victim who "caused it to happen"...
Or--maybe it really was all done to protect our church's image...(I don't know what their reasoning was back then). But I fully agree. It was handled wrongly back then.
What the lyle and craig did yesterday could have been done to protect the church's image as well - after all, they were kind of forced into it by being shown what was on the TMB.
What they did was right but people can do the right things for the wrong motives.
What was their motives for what they did? To behave morally? Or to defuse a public relations / church image time-bomb?
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Need to start somewhere
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Post by Need to start somewhere on Aug 31, 2007 14:20:12 GMT -5
Now we just need to reach the other hundreds of workers out there. Take me to your leaders
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 31, 2007 14:23:38 GMT -5
whew..... For a split second there I thought someone had copied my avatar....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2007 14:42:14 GMT -5
This is still just a tiny step in the right direction. We need to realize that Lyle and Craig did not do this without prompting, nor without some righteous coercion. Nevertheless, they did do the right thing and that's heartening and what counts. They are clearly not playing political games with this, nor sacrificing children's safety to protect ministry reputation. In my view, the reputation of the ministry today has gone up, not down due to this openness and honesty.
We need to also realize that Lyle is one of the more progressive overseers out there. Most still live in the Stone Age so there is still much work to be done. We still have plenty of victims getting blamed and we still have people getting kicked out and shunned who have no victims. We have cases like these going on in our area right now, although no known pedophilia thank goodness.
Thanks to Juliette, husband and Scott. You made a difference in the world this week.
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Post by firstborn on Aug 31, 2007 15:10:08 GMT -5
I commend these workers for taking the appropriate action, not an easy issue to deal with..
First and for most I pray for the families involved, having kids myself, grown now, the emotions would be off the charts.
As for Tim, my prayers are with him that he could shuck this horrid desire within, pay his debt willingly, And like all, pray that Gods spirit would live with in, and our actions would be pleasing to Him...
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Post by las logged out on Aug 31, 2007 15:12:50 GMT -5
Most still live in the Stone Age so there is
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Post by as I c it on Aug 31, 2007 17:19:20 GMT -5
Yeah, right,
When you're right--you're right! The "sunshine" falling off of Lyle and Craig's right actions and attitudes HAS caused my little old halo to glow--ever so brightly!! And since a good laugh is so good for one's mind and soul, I'm very happy to hear that my posting contributed so much joy to your soul as well.
Let's keep in touch....
Clearday, and "motive",
Regardless of the motives or promptings that may (or may not have been present) a precedent has been set. And with all the knowledge previously out there to do with molesters: plus the additional knowledge now being given to the fellowship--including those who may have somehow still been stuck in the Stone Age-- I think that Lyle and Craig have set a course of action that will continue to be followed should any future events of this kind arise.
To do anything otherwise, would create a terrible backlash and pouring forth of outrage. (Whereas Lyle's actions have brought forth praise--and pride--because they did what was right in God's eyes and man's).
And have won our appreciation and admiration for doing so. Therefore, I believe their actions have begun a policy that all will follow.
I'm sorry to hear there's trouble in your area, Clearday. I hope wisdom and rightness and the spirit of Christ will prevail.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2007 20:45:46 GMT -5
Yeah, right, When you're right--you're right! The "sunshine" falling off of Lyle and Craig's right actions and attitudes HAS caused my little old halo to glow--ever so brightly!! And since a good laugh is so good for one's mind and soul, I'm very happy to hear that my posting contributed so much joy to your soul as well. Let's keep in touch.... Clearday, and "motive", Regardless of the motives or promptings that may (or may not have been present) a precedent has been set. And with all the knowledge previously out there to do with molesters: plus the additional knowledge now being given to the fellowship--including those who may have somehow still been stuck in the Stone Age-- I think that Lyle and Craig have set a course of action that will continue to be followed should any future events of this kind arise. To do anything otherwise, would create a terrible backlash and pouring forth of outrage. (Whereas Lyle's actions have brought forth praise--and pride--because they did what was right in God's eyes and man's). And have won our appreciation and admiration for doing so. Therefore, I believe their actions have begun a policy that all will follow. I'm sorry to hear there's trouble in your area, Clearday. I hope wisdom and rightness and the spirit of Christ will prevail. Yes, as i c it, I am very happy to see what I hope will become precedent. In fact, all overseers should send out an information package to every friend in their area in the hope of preventing this from happening elsewhere. There are too many non-vigilant parents out there regarding the workers. I just hope the next time won't take the promptings of exes to do the right thing. Not that I have anything against exes, but our church soundly lacks moral clarity, it even shows up in this case. Yes there is trouble in our area, but there is trouble in your area too. I've been around too long to know that no place is exempt from various troubles. We have troubles with gays, adulterers, alcoholics, abusers, cheats, worker worshipers and other problems. If you don't, then you mustn't have any friends in your field.
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Post by caught on Aug 31, 2007 22:49:05 GMT -5
So Tim got caught, for everyone that gets caught there are many many more that don't get caught. Is Tim a scapegoat for the many other workers that haven't got caught. Guess there are a lot of other workers that are running scared.
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Post by yeah on Aug 31, 2007 23:14:14 GMT -5
They better be running scared... I would hope they would run right out of the work.
The work is no place for someone fighting themselves over demons within. There have been many that have left the work because they could keep the emotions under control. They understood the battle and went on with life where they could serve with whatever they had left.
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IQ
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Post by IQ on Aug 31, 2007 23:39:11 GMT -5
This is a serious issue and this is not the place to put down the workers, the friends, or whomever, rather we need to banned together to protect our littles from predators such as Tim.
Tim, just so happened to be a worker with 'rather' easy access to children, but he could have been a teacher, doctor, nurse, or any other of many occupation with a trusted relationship which deals closely with children.
So why, in this tragic situation are we bickering about 'the truth' and 'the workers'?
Lyle and Craig are an example of upright men - they would be this way whether they were just 'secular men' or the place they hold as workers. And most likely, Tim would have done what he was caught doing - whether a worker or not - most likely he wouldn't have victimized children of the friends.
So, let stick to the trauma of those who were victimized by this crime and the families of all involved.
We need to love and pray for the those who are in pain - and hope and pray that all who were hurt will be saved from the pain (of reliving those moments) of testifying - by Tim accepting a deal or pleading no contest and serving the time dictated by law for all the counts of the crimes he has committed.
Please - spent your love and energy in a positive way...examples are the way that John, Juli, and Scott have been pro-active.
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Post by THE DIFFERENCE SIR on Aug 31, 2007 23:59:28 GMT -5
Tim, just so happened to be a worker with 'rather' easy access to children, but he could have been a teacher, doctor, nurse, or any other of many occupation with a trusted relationship which deals closely with children. So why, in this tragic situation are we bickering about 'the truth' and 'the workers'? The difference, sir, is that if a teacher is caught molesting kids, the teacher is not sent to another school district by the principal in order to keep working. The teacher is arrested, booked, charged, fired, and subsequently barred from ever holding another teaching job again. The difference, sir, is that if a medical professional is caught molesting kids, that doctor/nurse is not sent to another hospital by their administrator in order to keep working. They are arrested, booked, charged, fired, and subsequently barred from ever holding another medical job again. The difference, sir, is that the 2x2s have been known to move workers of questionable integrity (where children are concerned) to other fields/states in order to protect the worker, the "work," and to keep the mess as quiet as possible. I cite Ruben Mata as a case in point. I cite the worker who molested R. Kee. I cite also the numerous brother workers who were known to take liberties with sister workers.
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Post by asi c it on Sept 1, 2007 0:15:55 GMT -5
Hello Clearday,
We have sinners in our field, of course. But I wouldn't classify most of them as "trouble in our area". Just "trouble" in their own households: or for the workers to deal with--not the fellowhship, as a whole, itself.
You seemed to indicate a wider scope of trouble (ones involving the fellowship): and ones where the fellowship (as a whole) would have to strive to reach a maturity in order to overcome themselves. And to keep their spirits right, as they did so.
Our area has seen and lived through its share of such problems. And therefore, today, many ESTEEM our workers--for what their spirits hold--the "worker worker" once BLINDLY given, now gone.
(Of course, there are still some who blindly worship the workers, just because they are workers. But there are also many--and I am such a one--who can testify that I have tested their spirits--and have found those I have done so with--to be worthy of my love and admiration--because of the love for Christ I found within them--and their spirits--as they had to deal with me).
And I can therefore state (as can many others) that our workers have PROVEN themselves to be good. And the past troubles have matured all of us within the fellowship.
Therefore, I come from a very good area--where love and understanding overcomes the judgmental self-righteous attitudes: and where we know how to bend to help: not stiffen up to break--the spirits of those within.
The recent events of MN affect everyone--and what we've seen will prove, I believe, that we don't have to worry about keeping a fragile image in place-- We can face the real facts--and survive--just fine! In the light of it.
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Post by ithascome on Sept 1, 2007 1:29:04 GMT -5
About how many friends would there be in MN? I was thinking it must have been a pretty expensive postage bill.
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Post by caught on Sept 1, 2007 1:29:32 GMT -5
Again, Tim is is the one who got caught. For everyone that has been caught there are many many that have not been caught. Be it worker or teacher, uncle or father and so on. The truth is that for every one there are many more......so if Tim was caught there are many workers who have not been caught. That is not distracting from the theme of this thread, but rather a frightening reality which needs to be considered.Tim getting caught can take the focus of others who are doing it...instead his arrest should alert us to the fact that there are other workers that are and have done it. There are senior workers that have been accused by at least one person on this board but what was done about him? Nothing, why because he is high up the rank and has power in the group. Tim appears to be fairly young. Is it any coincidence that Ira is now standing down since Tim' case has come to light?
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Post by ranman77007 on Sept 1, 2007 2:05:43 GMT -5
This is a serious issue and this is not the place to put down the workers, the friends, or whomever, rather we need to banned together to protect our littles from predators such as Tim. Tim, just so happened to be a worker with 'rather' easy access to children, but he could have been a teacher, doctor, nurse, or any other of many occupation with a trusted relationship which deals closely with children. So why, in this tragic situation are we bickering about 'the truth' and 'the workers'? Lyle and Craig are an example of upright men - they would be this way whether they were just 'secular men' or the place they hold as workers. And most likely, Tim would have done what he was caught doing - whether a worker or not - most likely he wouldn't have victimized children of the friends. So, let stick to the trauma of those who were victimized by this crime and the families of all involved. We need to love and pray for the those who are in pain - and hope and pray that all who were hurt will be saved from the pain (of reliving those moments) of testifying - by Tim accepting a deal or pleading no contest and serving the time dictated by law for all the counts of the crimes he has committed. Please - spent your love and energy in a positive way...examples are the way that John, Juli, and Scott have been pro-active. i have no idea if tim is innocent or guilty, but he's in for the duration, and being in P.C. instead of general population, he is probably only out of his cell an hour a day, maybe a couple if he is lucky, and even if innocent, he won't get that time back...but he's probably guilty, who knows? ...... but syd, you should cop a plea of being a jerk, because you are one... thats what i've been told by a few people (yup, you know it), but to save them from testifying, just cop a plea, and apologize... ;D sincerely, your brother in Him, and your friend (i got lots of friends that are jerks from time to time ), ranman ;D
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Post by lawyer on Sept 1, 2007 3:12:30 GMT -5
...save them from testifying.....
if a person pleads guilty their sentence is lighter than if they plead not guilty then are found guilty. In cases like this lawyers advice their clients to plead guilty in order to get a lighter sentence. It is in Tim's best interest that he pleads guilty probably on the advice of his lawyer.
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Post by TubeTrain on Sept 1, 2007 3:59:53 GMT -5
This is how matters should be dealt with.
Well done to all the exe's who have brought issues such as these to the light.
Lets hope this is how things will be in the 2x2. Open and honest. We are all observing every detail.
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IQ
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Post by IQ on Sept 1, 2007 16:50:03 GMT -5
TO: THE DIFFERENCE SIR
The difference, sir, is that if a teacher is caught molesting kids, the teacher is not sent to another school district by the principal in order to keep working. The teacher is arrested, booked, charged, fired, and subsequently barred from ever holding another teaching job again.
This thread is about Tim – Tim will in fact not be sent to another field, state, of country. If, in fact, another is guilty of the same crime or crimes and has not been charged – this isn't the workers’ fault, it is the fault of the ones who didn’t turn them. We as citizens are just as responsible as law enforcement to ensure that other follow the law.
The difference, sir, is that if a medical professional is caught molesting kids, that doctor/nurse is not sent to another hospital by their administrator in order to keep working. They are arrested, booked, charged, fired, and subsequently barred from ever holding another medical job again.
See above.
The difference, sir, is that the 2x2s have been known to move workers of questionable integrity (where children are concerned) to other fields/states in order to protect the worker, the "work," and to keep the mess as quiet as possible. I cite Ruben Mata as a case in point. I cite the worker who molested R. Kee. I cite also the numerous brother workers who were known to take liberties with sister workers.
We are as responsible to turning them in to law enforcement, as the one committing the crime. Knowing and not turning them in can make us as responsible as the one who is doing wrong. So, you and your all knowing about brother workers and etc doing wrong against another (i.e. sister workers, etc), seems to me you have failed the victims by not alerting law enforcement?
TO: lawyer
...save them from testifying.....
if a person pleads guilty their sentence is lighter than if they plead not guilty then are found guilty. In cases like this lawyers advice their clients to plead guilty in order to get a lighter sentence. It is in Tim's best interest that he pleads guilty probably on the advice of his lawyer.
Justice will be served when all who are involved in the justice system have sentenced the criminal to punishment that is allowed by law. If this does not suit you, then you as a citizen do have the right to petition thru the right channels that this be changed.
TO: tubetrain
This is how matters should be dealt with.
Well done to all the exe's who have brought issues such as these to the light.
Lets hope this is how things will be in the 2x2. Open and honest. We are all observing every detail.
KUDO to you…but, you don’t understand. (vision clouded with *exe-ism) Tim was turned in by those who are currently professing people. The meeting that is being publicized here was requested and the minutes by those who are former professing folks. Why? Well, most likely the folks who turned him in, either don’t visit this site or are under orders by law enforcement not to say anything till the investigation, hearing, and sentencing has been completed.
*exe-ism – the psychological thought process of finger pointing and thinking that one sector of society is less subjected to abuse and crime than any other sector. Raising one’s personal status in life by climbing on the back of another without reasonable common sense or moral character.
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Post by TubeTrain on Sept 2, 2007 5:59:22 GMT -5
InnocentQ.
Things should be kept simple.
- Don't fondle kids. -If you do fondle kids, be prepared to face a lot of trouble. -If you fondle kids by mistake.... too bad... you are caught, it's Gods ways of drawing the brakes!!
.... K.I.S.S
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Post by no name on Sept 2, 2007 7:30:55 GMT -5
So why, in this tragic situation are we bickering about 'the truth' and 'the workers'? Because certain people can't let any sort of thing go by without bickering and snarking - even if it's moot, as in this current situation. As I'm sure you've probably noticed, all sorts of silly threads are started for one gripe or another. So how could you expect a sense of reason to suddenly emerge now? * exe-ism – the psychological thought process of finger pointing and thinking that one sector of society is less subjected to abuse and crime than any other sector. Raising one’s personal status in life by climbing on the back of another without reasonable common sense or moral character. LOL! That was quite succinct!
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Post by linkster on Sept 3, 2007 10:31:08 GMT -5
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Post by in a nutshell on Sept 3, 2007 12:58:46 GMT -5
So, in a nutshell, those workers who have committed sexual crimes are not at fault, according to InnocentQ's warped way of thinking (using that term loosely, of course),
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Post by ithascome on Sept 3, 2007 15:32:57 GMT -5
Often attending church is impossible for convicted child sex offenders. They are often required to stay away from children. So if Tim were allowed to return to meetings... it would have to be one without children. He could not attend Gospel meetings, Special meetings or Conventions.
Most pedophiles will never get off probation no matter how well they do. They have a lifetime probation.... restrictions will always be enforce. It is kind of like never being forgiven.
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