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Post by snow on Nov 24, 2014 20:22:44 GMT -5
For some reason I cannot fathom, many Christians are focused on people going to hell. It seems the more people 'fall away' the more excited some get. They figure there can only be a few left before Christ returns. So it's seen as a good thing that the devil is winning against God hands down. I just don't get it. But then I have never understood how anyone could worship the Biblical God in the first place.
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Post by emy on Nov 24, 2014 20:26:27 GMT -5
326 Softly The Voice of Jesus
Is this not the same hymn as the new #229 with a slight change in the first line?
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 20:43:21 GMT -5
For some reason I cannot fathom, many Christians are focused on people going to hell. It seems the more people 'fall away' the more excited some get. They figure there can only be a few left before Christ returns. So it's seen as a good thing that the devil is winning against God hands down. I just don't get it. But then I have never understood how anyone could worship the Biblical God in the first place. I see these mechanisms at work; Feeds the desire to feel special Imagined fears which invoke a flight or fight response Mix in greed and punishment avoidance. The formula still works. www.protestant-reformation.org/looking-for-gods-church.html
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 20:52:40 GMT -5
Would you kindly give some examples of hymns about hell fire?
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 21:03:32 GMT -5
Would you kindly give some examples of hymns about hell fire? I no longer have my hymn book so I can't give you hymn numbers. I also had a separate hymn concordance that I also trashed. I don't think the exact words "hell fire" was sung but you know how the story songs go... The lost souls go to hell. Lots of songs about being "saved". The "what" you are saved from is hell fire.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 21:21:34 GMT -5
Would you kindly give some examples of hymns about hell fire? I no longer have my hymn book so I can't give you hymn numbers. I also had a separate hymn concordance that I also trashed. I don't think the exact words "hell fire" was sung but you know how the story songs go... The lost souls go to hell. I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 21:29:37 GMT -5
I no longer have my hymn book so I can't give you hymn numbers. I also had a separate hymn concordance that I also trashed. I don't think the exact words "hell fire" was sung but you know how the story songs go... The lost souls go to hell. I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. It reminds me of Luke 18:11. Thank god I'm not like those others who are going to hell... If you are not saved you go to hell, in hell there is fire. If you sing how happy you are saved the what you are happy about being saved from is hell fire. Again I don't have a hymn book I threw it in the trash so I'm not going to give you a quote from something I don't have.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 21:46:27 GMT -5
I no longer have my hymn book so I can't give you hymn numbers. I also had a separate hymn concordance that I also trashed. I don't think the exact words "hell fire" was sung but you know how the story songs go... The lost souls go to hell. I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. May be this we'll help you see my POV. The workers would preach; as in the past only those few in the ark were saved. There would have been many other boats at the time but only one boat did not sink, all other boats sank and the multitudes of people perished. Now if on that ark they sang a song about how happy they were to be on the one true ark while they watched all the other boats capsize and the people drown, would that be a song just about the good part their salvation alone? Or would that be about a mass drowning too?
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 21:47:20 GMT -5
I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. It reminds me of Luke 18:11. Thanks god I'm not like those others who are going to hell. OK, I'm trying to understand your position that Hymns Old and New contains too many songs about hell fire, and not enough about love. I couldn't think of a single hymn that I'd classify as a hell fire song, yet there are many that come to mind when I think about songs of love. In your opinion then, is the hymn "Blessed Assurance" by Fanny J. Crosby ( not in H:O&N but lyrics below), a song about love, or is it a song about hell fire? Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
Refrain: This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels, descending, bring from above Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, Watching and waiting, looking above, Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 21:49:08 GMT -5
It reminds me of Luke 18:11. Thanks god I'm not like those others who are going to hell. OK, I'm trying to understand your position that Hymns Old and New contains too many songs about hell fire, and not enough about love. I couldn't think of a single hymn that I'd classify as a hell fire song, yet there are many that come to mind when I think about songs of love. In your opinion then, is the hymn "Blessed Assurance" by Fanny J. Crosby ( not in H:O&N but lyrics below), a song about love, or is it a song about hell fire? Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
Refrain: This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels, descending, bring from above Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, Watching and waiting, looking above, Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.What is the writer happy to be saved from, if not hell? If there is no hell then there is nothing to be saved from. Being saved needs being saved from something.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 22:11:06 GMT -5
I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. May be this we'll help you see my POV. The workers would preach; as in the past only those in the ark were saved. There would have been many other boats at the time but only one boat did not sink, all other boats sank and the multitudes of people perished. Now if on that ark they sang a song about how happy they were to be on the one true ark while they watched all the other boats capsize and the people drown, would that be a song just about the good part their salvation alone? Or would that be about a mass drowning too? OK, thanks for helping. So what you are then suggesting is that the hymns in the hymnbook are not determined by the content of the hymns themselves but rather by the preaching of the workers present at the time. This would explain how a hymn might have a different meaning from one person to another. FWIW, I've never heard it preached about all the other boats that sank in Noah's day. To answer your hypothetical question, if a song mentioned watching other boats capsize and the people drown, then, yes, it would be a song about a mass drowning. But just because a song expresses a sentiment of love between two people, that doesn't make it a song about everyone else's misery and lack of love.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 22:13:19 GMT -5
OK, I'm trying to understand your position that Hymns Old and New contains too many songs about hell fire, and not enough about love. I couldn't think of a single hymn that I'd classify as a hell fire song, yet there are many that come to mind when I think about songs of love. In your opinion then, is the hymn "Blessed Assurance" by Fanny J. Crosby ( not in H:O&N but lyrics below), a song about love, or is it a song about hell fire? Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
Refrain: This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels, descending, bring from above Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, Watching and waiting, looking above, Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.What is the writer happy to be saved from, if not hell? If there is no hell then there is nothing to be saved from. Being saved needs being saved from something. So, to put it simply, this is a hell fire song? Yes/No
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 22:20:10 GMT -5
What is the writer happy to be saved from, if not hell? If there is no hell then there is nothing to be saved from. Being saved needs being saved from something. So, to put it simply, this is a hell fire song? Yes/No No, but without a hell it has no meaning.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 22:24:13 GMT -5
So, to put it simply, this is a hell fire song? Yes/No No, but without a hell has no meaning. OK, then perhaps you would give an example of a song about love, one that the hymnbook needs more of.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 22:37:22 GMT -5
No, but without a hell has no meaning. OK, then perhaps you would give an example of a song about love, one that the hymnbook needs more of. This is a good song about love. www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsxtImDVMigDo you see anything wrong with these pictures? It's like the point that I'm trying to make. Attachments:
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 22:47:42 GMT -5
326 Softly The Voice of Jesus Is this not the same hymn as the new #229 with a slight change in the first line? Yes, you're right, Emy. The hymn was written by James Fawcett and first appeared in the 1919 edition of the hymnbook. The first line of each verse was changed from The still small voice of Jesus to Softly the voice of Jesus for the 1951 hymnbook, but reverted to the original in the 1987 edition. The tune in the 1987 hymnbook is also different from the 1951 edition.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 23:05:32 GMT -5
OK, thanks for helping. So what you are then suggesting is that the hymns in the hymnbook are not determined by the content of the hymns themselves but rather by the preaching of the workers present at the time. This would explain how a hymn might have a different meaning from one person to another. FWIW, I've never heard it preached about all the other boats that sank in Noah's day. Words do not so much have absolute meaning in and of themselves but we give meaning to them which changes with time and context. Poems and songs are more open to interpretation than many other works. Math is the most exact language that I know of. The gospel pitch about being in the ark, one boat, one door, one way, is very well thought out and I have heard it many times. I professed on the east USA. I understand they were more liberal other places and are much more so now than in my day. Hell is still in there I hear.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 23:14:35 GMT -5
OK, then perhaps you would give an example of a song about love, one that the hymnbook needs more of. This is a good song about love. www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsxtImDVMigDo you see anything wrong with these pictures? It's like the point that I'm trying to make. The statement that you made was that the group needs more songs about love, and less about hell fire. That's OK except that you couldn't back up your statement with a single example of a "hell fire" song. Do you see the point I'm making? You would, however, like to see The Beatles' "All You Need Is Love" included in the hymnbook. For myself, I feel that there are more songs in the hymnbook about love than there are about hell fire, and besides, it's sufficient that I have The Beatles on my iPod. As far as the point you are now making with these pictures; my opinion is that suffering and starvation in the world does not mean that I shouldn't be grateful for what I have. I should express my gratitude by helping others who are less fortunate than myself. That's love.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 23:27:44 GMT -5
The statement that you made was that the group needs more songs about love, and less about hell fire. That's OK except that you couldn't back up your statement with a single example of a "hell fire" song. Do you see the point I'm making? You would, however, like to see The Beatles' "All You Need Is Love" included in the hymnbook. For myself, I feel that there are more songs in the hymnbook about love than there are about hell fire, and besides, it's sufficient that I have The Beatles on my iPod. As far as the point you are now making with these pictures; my opinion is that suffering and starvation in the world does not mean that I shouldn't be grateful for what I have. I should express my gratitude by helping others who are less fortunate than myself. That's love. Your God does not act out of love or is not able as; Why would a loving God let children die of starvation as we type away? Is God not able to act? If God is able then why does he not act? Why is it only man that feeds the starving children? How about bring back the mana for all this time? Where is the evidence of a loving god for the starving children tonight?
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 23:31:05 GMT -5
OK, thanks for helping. So what you are then suggesting is that the hymns in the hymnbook are not determined by the content of the hymns themselves but rather by the preaching of the workers present at the time. This would explain how a hymn might have a different meaning from one person to another. FWIW, I've never heard it preached about all the other boats that sank in Noah's day. Words do not so much have absolute meaning in and of themselves but we give meaning to them which changes with time and context. Poems and songs are more open to interpretation than many other works. Math is the most exact language that I know of. The gospel pitch about being in the ark, one boat, one door, one way, is very well thought out and I have heard it many times. I professed on the east USA. I understand they were more liberal other places and are much more so now than in my day. Hell is still in there I hear. Thank you, then we are in agreement about the open interpretation of songs. I can also understand how your substantial exposure to threat of hell fire would affect your interpretation. I hope it doesn't affect your gratitude or your love for others. Happy thanksgiving!
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 23:52:41 GMT -5
Words do not so much have absolute meaning in and of themselves but we give meaning to them which changes with time and context. Poems and songs are more open to interpretation than many other works. Math is the most exact language that I know of. The gospel pitch about being in the ark, one boat, one door, one way, is very well thought out and I have heard it many times. I professed on the east USA. I understand they were more liberal other places and are much more so now than in my day. Hell is still in there I hear. Thank you, then we are in agreement about the open interpretation of songs. I can also understand how your substantial exposure to threat of hell fire would affect your interpretation. I hope it doesn't affect your gratitude or your love for others. Happy thanksgiving! If I did not care for you and those still in the 2x2 I would not be here. If someone truly believes in the 2x2 way, I respect that as long as they do not act in a way that harms others. I do not respect any who say they believe, but do not. Life is too short to live a lie. If you are reading this then I suspect you feel the same about the ex's otherwise you would not be reading this. I welcome reasoning together. If I'm wrong I want to know, if you are wrong, you too should know. Each should seek truth. I see this life as all there is, not as a dress rehearsal, which makes this life most precious.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2014 0:08:39 GMT -5
Partaker, the "falling away" has to happen before Jesus returns it was foretold by the apostle Paul: Well, Of course! So much for the rationalization of a belief in Christ!.
It of course, it has nothing whatever to do with the fact that the resurrection of a dead body & an ascension into the sky with any means of propulsion are against all the rules of physics!
People are getting less & less taken in by such contradictions.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 25, 2014 0:09:16 GMT -5
The statement that you made was that the group needs more songs about love, and less about hell fire. That's OK except that you couldn't back up your statement with a single example of a "hell fire" song. Do you see the point I'm making? You would, however, like to see The Beatles' "All You Need Is Love" included in the hymnbook. For myself, I feel that there are more songs in the hymnbook about love than there are about hell fire, and besides, it's sufficient that I have The Beatles on my iPod. As far as the point you are now making with these pictures; my opinion is that suffering and starvation in the world does not mean that I shouldn't be grateful for what I have. I should express my gratitude by helping others who are less fortunate than myself. That's love. Your God does not act out of love or is not able as; Why would a loving God let children die of starvation as we type away? Is God not able to act? If God is able then why does he not act? Why is it only man that feeds the starving children? How about bring back the mana for all this time? Where is the evidence of a loving god for the starving children tonight? The reason that there are children starving as we speak is not a lack of food, it is the economic system of our society: i.e: Man's greed. God (or if you don't believe, then, NATURE) provides enough resources to feed the entire population. Yet, the greed of man makes us unwilling to share with one another. When man is willing to feed the starving children, what is it that impels him to do it? LOVE. You say "All you need is love", I say "God is love". If you have love then you will feed the starving child. If every man has love, there will be no more starving children. However, this is way off the topic of Ira Stanphill and the hymnbook. I apologise.
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Post by xna on Nov 25, 2014 0:15:02 GMT -5
Your God does not act out of love or is not able as; Why would a loving God let children die of starvation as we type away? Is God not able to act? If God is able then why does he not act? Why is it only man that feeds the starving children? How about bring back the mana for all this time? Where is the evidence of a loving god for the starving children tonight? The reason that there are children starving as we speak is not a lack of food, it is the economic system of our society: i.e: Man's greed. God (or if you don't believe, then, NATURE) provides enough resources to feed the entire population. Yet, the greed of man makes us unwilling to share with one another. When man is willing to feed the starving children, what is it that impels him to do it? LOVE. You say "All you need is love", I say "God is love". If you have love then you will feed the starving child. If every man has love, there will be no more starving children. However, this is way off the topic of Ira Stanphill and the hymnbook. I apologise. Way off topic, I Agree. I give you the last word. Happy thanksgiving!
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 25, 2014 12:15:16 GMT -5
I no longer have my hymn book so I can't give you hymn numbers. I also had a separate hymn concordance that I also trashed. I don't think the exact words "hell fire" was sung but you know how the story songs go... The lost souls go to hell. I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. I realize this is not addressed to me, but I do have a "Hymns Old and New" and will provide you with all of the references to hell fire (not that exact wording) I can find, if you're really interested. They are mostly found in the gospel hymns, 1-170.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 25, 2014 12:43:09 GMT -5
I don't need hymn numbers, just a line of any hymn about hell fire will be enough. I'm interested to know what qualifies a song as a "hell fire" song. I realize this is not addressed to me, but I do have a "Hymns Old and New" and will provide you with all of the references to hell fire (not that exact wording) I can find, if you're really interested. They are mostly found in the gospel hymns, 1-170. You're welcome to contribute. I'm interested to know what others feel are "hell fire" songs.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 25, 2014 14:03:22 GMT -5
I realize this is not addressed to me, but I do have a "Hymns Old and New" and will provide you with all of the references to hell fire (not that exact wording) I can find, if you're really interested. They are mostly found in the gospel hymns, 1-170. You're welcome to contribute. I'm interested to know what others feel are "hell fire" songs. Here are the songs that strike fear in the heart during gospel meetings. The words "hell" and "fire" do not actually appear, but these hymns manage to be pretty scary without them.
38: tis not worthwhile that thou shouldst be/an outcast for eternity Chorus: Tis not worthwhile o count the cost/why should thy precious soul be lost? 83: every day some new illusion/seems to offer what you crave/thus the author of confusion/leads men to a christless grave
94: if you miss his great salvation/oh what then will be your end?
102: while god’s spirit bids you come/sinner, do not longer roam/lest you seal your hopeless doom/be in time Chorus: if in sin you longer wait/you may find no open gate/and your cry be just too late/be in time!
111: the night of death is coming/soon you must stand alone/your sins still unforgiven/before the great white throne/do not reject the savior/until the die is cast/your life’s short day is ended/and you are lost at last.
120: do not strive with your creator/to resist him means this cost/you will miss his great salvation/and be numbered with the lost.
121: there are dangers untold in the path you now tread/with no hope of escape for your soul And To his comfort and rest then o hasten away/lose no time lest your soul should be lost/with no Christ in your heart drifting on to your doom/o say have you counted the cost?
122: see Jesus is waiting/ he reasons with you/your soul is in danger/oh what will you do?/ Death! Death is approaching/ how sad is your plight!/while Jesus is calling/ oh come, come tonight.
126: Kindly entreating come unto me/jesus the savior is speaking to thee/earnestly saying do not delay/flee from destruction escape while you may Kindly entreating come unto me/glory immortal your portion shall be/shame and dishonor wait those who stray/far from the savior on ruins dark way Angels are waiting do you not care/that you are drifting to endless despair? No hope no refuge where will you end?/hasten to jesus your savior and friend.
129: sad will be our end if thus we build/ at last with grief we will be filled
135: God will bring you into judgment/ you cannot escape the day/when you shall appear before him/him whose love you cast away/you may seal your doom forever/if you still go on in sin/open is the door of mercy/hasten now and enter in.
136: o be reconciled to jesus/ere your day of grace is past/and outside the door of mercy/you are left to morn at last.
137: out of Christ without a savior/ give to him now your heart/ ere the door of mercy closes/ and you hear his word “depart”
138: Hopeless the plight of the careless then/bitter the cry of deluded men/awful that moment, beyond all ken/when the king comes in
139: Have you any room for jesus/ as in grace he calls again?/oh today is time accepted/tomorrow you may call in vain
142: why should you let your priceless soul be lost/and then awake, too late to count the cost?/where the gulf cannot be crossed/outside the kingdom of God. Chorus: how shall you escape if you willfully remain/outside the kingdom of God?
143: while he calls you arise/and no longer despise/do not trifle with him I implore/ see his heart yearns for you/say of what will you do/if he leaves you there outside the door? There is coming a day/when the master will say/”Go! Depart, ye are not of my flock”/you will then weep and wail/but no tears will prevail/twill be useless then standing to knock Chorus: one day too late, many will wait/stand knocking outside at the gate/jesus will say “depart ye away”/the door is now shut it’s too late (tenor and alto lines repeat: “too late”) brrrr!!
144: Jesus is calling: he may call no more/strive then to enter, ere he close the door/what a sad awakening, should you find too late/mercy has vanished, shut is heaven’s gate Chorus: jesus is calling: hear his heartfelt cry/why will you perish? Oh why will you die/ outside the kingdom, missing the goal?/what shall it profit if you lose your soul?
147: Your only hope is jesus, oh do not turn away/for you must stand before him on that great judgment day/when those of every nation before him will appear/all who despised his mercy, in awful guilt and fear
148: God had almost won you when your friends drew near/”you shall lose our friendship!” whispered in your ear/ with the flesh conferring, soon your heart grew cold/ then you turned against him, and your birthright sold Chorus: oh what might have been! This will be your cry/when too late you see Jesus has passed by/long with you he pleaded but you would not hear/now he cannot help you, though you faint with fear
157: if you close the door to jesus and refuse his words so true/then you’ll find to your own sorrow, heaven’s door is closed to you
160: to die with no hope! Hast thou counted the cost?/to die out of Christ and thy soul to be lost?/so near to the kingdom! O come we implore!/while jesus is pleading come enter the door!
164: only one step, oh soul if thou dost waver/ how sad thy lot, if thou shouldst hopeless die
167: what if the word were passed, this night shall be thy last/ where would thy soul be cast? where hide thy face?
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 25, 2014 14:40:05 GMT -5
You're welcome to contribute. I'm interested to know what others feel are "hell fire" songs. Here are the songs that strike fear in the heart during gospel meetings. The words "hell" and "fire" do not actually appear, but these hymns manage to be pretty scary without them.
...
Thank you. Clearly we have different thresholds of what strikes fear into our hearts but, as XNA and I discussed earlier, this can be relative to the preaching/experiences that we have each been exposed to, and I respect that. I’ve included below, a couple of hymns that I consider to be “hell fire” songs for your comparison. These hymns were included in a British evangelical society (Anglican/Baptist/Independent) hymnbook targeted at children! I’m sure you’ll agree, the hymns in Hymns Old & New are tame compared to these two: What a dreadful place is hell! There bad children ever dwell; Cursed spirits, wicked men, Suffer there eternal pain.
All in that dread world below, Feel unknown and hopeless woe; Are o’rewhelm’d with deepest shame, Ever burn in quenchless flame.
And if I in sin remain - If I am not born again - I, alas! at death must go To that awful place of woe.
Change my heart, then, gracious God; Cleanse my soul in Jesu’s blood; Thus shall I be sav’d from hell, And with thee for ever dwell.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And will the Judge descend? And must the dead arise? And not a single soul escape His all-discerning eyes?
And from his righteous lips Shall such a sentence sound? And through the millions of the lost Speak black despair around?
“Depart from me accurs’d, To everlasting flame, For rebel angels first prepar’d, Where mercy never came.”
How will my heart endure The terrors of that day, When earth and heav’n before his face, Astonish’d shrink away?
But ere that trmpet shakes The mansions of the dead, Hark, from the Gospel’s cheering sounds What joyful tidings spread!
Ye sinners, seek his grace, Whose wrath you cannot bear; Fly to the shelter of his cross, And find salvation there.
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