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Post by alexander on Jun 29, 2011 9:58:47 GMT -5
A hymn has been selected the past two Sundays in our meeting- 215 Give Me a Heart. It is a beautiful hymn and I can certainly relate to the words and plea of the song. It was written by Ira Stanphill who according to Wikipedia was a "singer evangelist". I can believe that. He also wrote "I Don't Know about Tomorrow" which my companion used to sing when I was in the work. It too is a beautiful song/hymn and has been perfomed by the Oak Ridge Boys.
The following is from Wikipedia.org regarding Ira Stanphill: As a singer evangelist, Stanphill traveled the United States and Canada extensively and around the world to forty countries over his career to preach and perform his music. Many famous secular singers performed his works, which were received with great acclaim and are still popular. Entertainers such as Elvis Presley (Mansion Over the Hilltop) and Johnny Cash (Suppertime) are among those who have performed Stanphill's works. "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow", "I Walk with His Hand in Mine", and "We'll Talk It Over" are a few of his titles that are familiar and still performed today
I guess his message was good enough to be used in our, the 2x2 hymn book, but he himself is doomed to hell for being a hireling by our very doctrine? Hypocritical much? I know the 2x2 answer well: "We do not judge, God is the judge. And Jesus himself said that we are to do as they say, but not as they do." (Regarding all others that preach in the name of Jesus.)
Aren't we listening to his "preaching" in his songs? In our very meetings? But we would be told not to go hear him speak "preach" if he were still alive because he would be a "false teacher" and hireling?
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2fedup
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Post by 2fedup on Jun 29, 2011 11:54:06 GMT -5
We were told some years back that Ira was Billy Grahams music director at one time.
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Post by StAnne on Jun 29, 2011 13:46:47 GMT -5
Biography Ira Stanphill was a prolific Gospel songwriter, Minister, Singer and a Musician and was inducted into the Southern Gospel Music Association (SGMA) Hall Of Fame in 2001. Bethel Assembly of God in Lake Worth Florida, was founded by Rev. Ira Stanphill. www.sghistory.com/index.php?n=I.Ira_StanphillMaybe he was an okay guy because he was a traveling evangelist -- but a church founder too? Wow.
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Post by sharonw on Jun 29, 2011 18:25:45 GMT -5
We were told some years back that Ira was Billy Grahams music director at one time. Ira Stamphill was one of the most prolific songwriters in the religious genre! He made multimillions with his "preaching through singing"! I know an overseer's favorite song to pick is that "Give Me A Heart" but he would refuse to join in a group singing one of the friend's hymns.....they were not good enough for him perhaps they weren't tied to a multimillion dollar composer!
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 22, 2014 17:21:32 GMT -5
Is it true that this hymn (#215-Give me a heart) was the only "new" hymn written by an outsider in the 1987 Hymns Old & New?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 22, 2014 18:06:19 GMT -5
A hymn has been selected the past two Sundays in our meeting- 215 Give Me a Heart. It is a beautiful hymn and I can certainly relate to the words and plea of the song. It was written by Ira Stanphill who according to Wikipedia was a "singer evangelist". I can believe that. He also wrote "I Don't Know about Tomorrow" which my companion used to sing when I was in the work. It too is a beautiful song/hymn and has been perfomed by the Oak Ridge Boys. The following is from Wikipedia.org regarding Ira Stanphill: As a singer evangelist, Stanphill traveled the United States and Canada extensively and around the world to forty countries over his career to preach and perform his music. Many famous secular singers performed his works, which were received with great acclaim and are still popular. Entertainers such as Elvis Presley (Mansion Over the Hilltop) and Johnny Cash (Suppertime) are among those who have performed Stanphill's works. "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow", "I Walk with His Hand in Mine", and "We'll Talk It Over" are a few of his titles that are familiar and still performed today I guess his message was good enough to be used in our, the 2x2 hymn book, but he himself is doomed to hell for being a hireling by our very doctrine? Hypocritical much? I know the 2x2 answer well: "We do not judge, God is the judge. And Jesus himself said that we are to do as they say, but not as they do." (Regarding all others that preach in the name of Jesus.) Aren't we listening to his "preaching" in his songs? In our very meetings? But we would be told not to go hear him speak "preach" if he were still alive because he would be a "false teacher" and hireling? In the beginning days of the "TRUTH" with Wm. Irvin , nearly all the hymns were by other religious leaders. Had it not been so , there wouldn't have been much, if any hymn book!
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 23, 2014 15:56:51 GMT -5
A hymn has been selected the past two Sundays in our meeting- 215 Give Me a Heart. It is a beautiful hymn and I can certainly relate to the words and plea of the song. It was written by Ira Stanphill who according to Wikipedia was a "singer evangelist". I can believe that. He also wrote "I Don't Know about Tomorrow" which my companion used to sing when I was in the work. It too is a beautiful song/hymn and has been perfomed by the Oak Ridge Boys. The following is from Wikipedia.org regarding Ira Stanphill: As a singer evangelist, Stanphill traveled the United States and Canada extensively and around the world to forty countries over his career to preach and perform his music. Many famous secular singers performed his works, which were received with great acclaim and are still popular. Entertainers such as Elvis Presley (Mansion Over the Hilltop) and Johnny Cash (Suppertime) are among those who have performed Stanphill's works. "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow", "I Walk with His Hand in Mine", and "We'll Talk It Over" are a few of his titles that are familiar and still performed today I guess his message was good enough to be used in our, the 2x2 hymn book, but he himself is doomed to hell for being a hireling by our very doctrine? Hypocritical much? I know the 2x2 answer well: "We do not judge, God is the judge. And Jesus himself said that we are to do as they say, but not as they do." (Regarding all others that preach in the name of Jesus.) Aren't we listening to his "preaching" in his songs? In our very meetings? But we would be told not to go hear him speak "preach" if he were still alive because he would be a "false teacher" and hireling? In the beginning days of the "TRUTH" with Wm. Irvin , nearly all the hymns were by other religious leaders. Had it not been so , there wouldn't have been much, if any hymn book!
There really is a dichotomy between thought and practice. On one hand the movement claims that the Bible is their only guide to faith and practice and then they supplement this with a hymnbook with many of their hymns, especially in the early editions written by men and women whom they look upon as hirelings and believe they are in hell. You are quite correct, if had not been for these other hymnwriters it would not have been much of a hymnbook. Interestingly they excluded perhaps the most prolific hymnwriter of all time, Charles Wesley. Of course they could have maintained a Scripture based route and did what the early Presbyterians did and the Covenanters still do – use the Psalms as their hymnbook.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 16:38:47 GMT -5
If the words to a hymn is spiritually inspiring, does it really matter who wrote it? Unity of spirit at variance with religious organisation can block spiritual growth.
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Post by blacksheep on Nov 23, 2014 16:48:22 GMT -5
Here's an Ira Stanphill hymn: "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow", performed by Alison Krauss.
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Post by blacksheep on Nov 23, 2014 18:35:17 GMT -5
Another Ira Stanphill Hymn, this one performed by Elvis Presley: "Mansion Over The Hilltop"
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 23, 2014 18:51:51 GMT -5
If the words to a hymn is spiritually inspiring, does it really matter who wrote it? Unity of spirit at variance with religious organisation can block spiritual growth. I suspect after a former friend who pointed out the fact that when we receive spiritual encouragement from a song written by someone outside the 2x2 religion that we are actually having "fellowship" with them, that the next hymnbook will likely have very few hymns in it that are written by "outsiders". Of course, in order to fill the pages, one might as well expect to see some songs that are not really very good songs...as well....jmo
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Post by stevnz on Nov 23, 2014 19:41:55 GMT -5
A hymn has been selected the past two Sundays in our meeting- 215 Give Me a Heart. It is a beautiful hymn and I can certainly relate to the words and plea of the song. It was written by Ira Stanphill who according to Wikipedia was a "singer evangelist". I can believe that. He also wrote "I Don't Know about Tomorrow" which my companion used to sing when I was in the work. It too is a beautiful song/hymn and has been perfomed by the Oak Ridge Boys. The following is from Wikipedia.org regarding Ira Stanphill: As a singer evangelist, Stanphill traveled the United States and Canada extensively and around the world to forty countries over his career to preach and perform his music. Many famous secular singers performed his works, which were received with great acclaim and are still popular. Entertainers such as Elvis Presley (Mansion Over the Hilltop) and Johnny Cash (Suppertime) are among those who have performed Stanphill's works. "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow", "I Walk with His Hand in Mine", and "We'll Talk It Over" are a few of his titles that are familiar and still performed today I guess his message was good enough to be used in our, the 2x2 hymn book, but he himself is doomed to hell for being a hireling by our very doctrine? Hypocritical much? I know the 2x2 answer well: "We do not judge, God is the judge. And Jesus himself said that we are to do as they say, but not as they do." (Regarding all others that preach in the name of Jesus.) Aren't we listening to his "preaching" in his songs? In our very meetings? But we would be told not to go hear him speak "preach" if he were still alive because he would be a "false teacher" and hireling? In the beginning days of the "TRUTH" with Wm. Irvin , nearly all the hymns were by other religious leaders. Had it not been so , there wouldn't have been much, if any hymn book!
sites.google.com/site/hymnsoldandnew/home/statistics shows that each edition has included an increasing percentage of hymns written by members of the fellowship: Go Preachers Hymn Book 11% 1917 Hymns Old and New 35% 1919 Hymns Old and New 45% 1928 Hymns Old and New 59% 1935 Hymns Old and New 64% 1951 Hymns Old and New 64% 1987 Hymns Old and New 74%
There are many other hymns written by members that could have been used if there was a strong desire to only have hymns from members. For instance Sam Jones has 112 hymns in the current book but he wrote many others that haven't been used.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 4:09:00 GMT -5
If the words to a hymn is spiritually inspiring, does it really matter who wrote it? Unity of spirit at variance with religious organisation can block spiritual growth. I suspect after a former friend who pointed out the fact that when we receive spiritual encouragement from a song written by someone outside the 2x2 religion that we are actually having "fellowship" with them, that the next hymnbook will likely have very few hymns in it that are written by "outsiders". Of course, in order to fill the pages, one might as well expect to see some songs that are not really very good songs...as well....jmo Well that makes no sense to me, that is being petty minded; any words that strengthens faiths and uplifts the spirit should be embraced in the worship of God in any and every religious organization, as long as there is no copyright restrictions. My understanding is that many of the old hymns in our hymn book have been removed because of copyright limitations and restrictions.
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Post by stevnz on Nov 24, 2014 7:04:44 GMT -5
I suspect after a former friend who pointed out the fact that when we receive spiritual encouragement from a song written by someone outside the 2x2 religion that we are actually having "fellowship" with them, that the next hymnbook will likely have very few hymns in it that are written by "outsiders". Of course, in order to fill the pages, one might as well expect to see some songs that are not really very good songs...as well....jmo Well that makes no sense to me, that is being petty minded; any words that strengthens faiths and uplifts the spirit should be embraced in the worship of God in any and every religious organization, as long as there is no copyright restrictions. My understanding is that many of the old hymns in our hymn book have been removed because of copyright limitations and restrictions. 32 Hymns in the 1951 book weren't included in the 1987 edition. They include 10 written by friends and workers and 7 where the author died in the 1800s (so there isn't likely to be any copyright issue) so your understanding doesn't seem to be correct. 1951 O&N Title Author Author birth-death Author Religious Affiliation 5 O Love that will not let me go Rev. George Matheson 10 Jesus Died for Sinners 16 The Saviour is Calling 60 Where Will You Dwell SAM JONES 1877-1946 Christian 22 Souls of Men Rev. Frederick W Faber 1814-1863 Catholic 31 I Was a Wandering Sheep Rev. Horatius Bonar 1808-1889 Church of Scotland 38 Jesus is Calling Today Fanny J. Crosby 1820-1915 Methodist 59 Where Will You Spend Eternity? Rev. Elisha A Hoffman 1839-1929 Presbyterian 92 Have You Counted the Cost A J Hodge 239 Cease Not JAMES FAWCETT 1886-1958 Christian 185 Come over and Help us ROBERT BLAIR 1874-1942 Christian 28 Faintly the Shadows JAMES JARDINE 1884-1969 Christian 152 A Living Offering WILLIAM WEIR 1882-1969 Christian 279 The Sweetest Story JAMES JARDINE 1884-1969 Christian 95 O Jesus, Thou art Standing W H How 151 In Deep Distress SAM JONES 1877-1946 Christian 99 The Voice of God is Calling 325 Jesus my Shepherd is SAM JONES 1877-1946 Christian 102 A few more Years shall Roll Rev. Horatius Bonar 1808-1889 Church of Scotland 131 O God Give Ear 334 Life's Cares JAMES CRAIG 1888-1953 Christian 204 Jesus Thou Joy of Loving Hearts 209 A Homeless Stranger anon. 259 Live Out Thy Life Frances R. Havergal 1836-1879 Anglican, Calvanist 275 I am His and He is Mine Rev. Wade Robinson 296 Jesus Thy Life is Mine Frances R. Havergal 1836-1879 Anglican, Calvanist 311 Light after Darkness Frances R. Havergal 1836-1879 Anglican, Calvanist 313 When the Weary Seeking Rest Rev. Horatius Bonar 1808-1889 Church of Scotland 324 Constrained by Love 34 The Voice of Jesus Calls SAM JONES 1877-1946 Christian 326 Softly The Voice of Jesus 328 O Blessed Lord
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 7:31:19 GMT -5
Well I am not a lawyer and have not investigated this matter at all, but I have read it somewhere or probably heard it in a meeting at convention by a worker who referred to, and quoted words, from a hymn that is no longer in our hymn book. In point of fact, I have heard many workers quote verses from hymns that have been removed from the hymn book for whatever reason.
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Post by Persona non grata on Nov 24, 2014 8:35:31 GMT -5
Is it true that this hymn (#215-Give me a heart) was the only "new" hymn written by an outsider in the 1987 Hymns Old & New? No, that's not true. The website Hymns Old and New shows that there are several "new" hymns in the 1987 hymn book, written by "outsiders". No. 54, So Kind A Shepherd, by Rev. Frederick W. Faber, Catholic No. 60, Teach Me Thy Way, by B. Mansell Ramsey, Anglican (?) No. 89, Give Me Thy Heart, by Mrs. Eliza Edmunds-Hewitt, Presbyterian No. 95, God Calling Yet, by Gerhard Tersteegen No. 197, Teach Me To Pray, LORD, by A. S. Reitz, Baptist No. 215, A Tender Heart, by Ira F. Stanphill No. 271, I Know Not Why, by Daniel W. Whittle
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 24, 2014 9:00:03 GMT -5
Thank you very much PNG!
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Post by stargazer on Nov 24, 2014 10:56:07 GMT -5
My understanding is that some hymns were not included in the 1987 edition because of copyright considerations.
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Post by blacksheep on Nov 24, 2014 11:17:46 GMT -5
I saw somewhere a comparison between the original words of "outsider" hymns and the slight changes to the words when the hymns were included in the 2x2 hymnal. Mostly, the changes seemed to be to phrases that were too "grace oriented" for the 2x2 philosophy. (I'll try to locate the article, unless someone else recalls where it is and posts it first. Cherie?)
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 24, 2014 11:20:56 GMT -5
I saw somewhere a comparison between the original words of "outsider" hymns and the slight changes to the words when the hymns were included in the 2x2 hymnal. Mostly, the changes seemed to be to phrases that were too "grace oriented" for the 2x2 philosophy. (I'll try to locate the article, unless someone else recalls where it is and posts it first. Cherie?) Here you go: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/19wmibook.php#Changes
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 12:16:09 GMT -5
. It too is a beautiful song/hymn and has been perfomed by the Oak Ridge Boys. The bible and hymns have "some" good instruction. I also like "some" of the music, but some years after I quit professing & had an understanding where I had come from, I decided all in all, it was best to throw my bible, bible case, hymnal, & concordance, in the trash. It wasn't out of anger but more that I didn't want another to get caught up in the movement. It must be something akin to when an alcoholic person dies and the kids come in and pour all that "good booze" down the drain. I expect this action would be hard to understand for those who still profess.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 15:49:33 GMT -5
Yes Natan, I know about the history of the fellowship, and I know that the movement grew and spread rapidly. I am also aware that it is now declining rapidly. Workers have been jumping ship, and friends have been jumping ship so what exactly has been happening? I know that this is also happening in some other churches as well. If you attend gospel meetings these days and make a head count of those there, the number of outsiders will be very small. A short few years ago a sister worker ( who is now deceased) attended our Sunday morning meeting and she was lamenting the fact that far from getting new people into the fellowship, they are having a hard time keeping people in the fellowship. Why, why, why is that the case? There has to be a reason for that and the senior workers/overseers, elders need to put heads together to find out why and seek to reverse the trend, IMH.
ps. I believe that the world's populations has increased enormously over the years, so either people have become less religious, which might partly explain the decline in church attendances in some churches, although attendances have increased in other churches like The JHWS for example, or other churches are failing to satisfy and restrict the spiritual needs of the people by maintaining and enforcing unnecessary rules and practices that have little or nothing to do with the salvation of one's soul.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 17:08:56 GMT -5
Gods been falling away for thousands of years. Each thought they were the right and the others wrong. When was "Behold, I am coming quickly" said? www.godchecker.com/
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 17:31:05 GMT -5
Well one day is like a thousand years in the sight of God, and there is a Great falling away already, so it looks like by the second coming of Christ they won't be many left to enter heaven, hence Many will be called but few will be chosen to enter. He will come early for the elect sake. I think I'll shut down the iPad now and go on the keyboard/organ and sing and play Hymn 337: Counted In.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 17:48:05 GMT -5
Well one day is like a thousand years in the sight of God, and there is a Great falling away already, so it looks like by the second coming of Christ they won't be many left to enter heaven, hence Many will be called but few will be chosen to enter. He will come early for the elect sake. I think I'll shut down the iPad now and go on the keyboard/organ and sing and play Hymn 337: Counted In. The 2x2 message is; just some of the F&W are saved, and the rest go to hell. This message is part of the reason for the falling away. Even if you are 100% correct would you want to worship such a God for ever and ever?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 18:02:45 GMT -5
Well one day is like a thousand years in the sight of God, and there is a Great falling away already, so it looks like by the second coming of Christ they won't be many left to enter heaven, hence Many will be called but few will be chosen to enter. He will come early for the elect sake. I think I'll shut down the iPad now and go on the keyboard/organ and sing and play Hymn 337: Counted In. The 2x2 message is; just some of the F&W are saved, and the rest go to hell. This message is part of the reason for the falling away. Even if you are 100% correct would you want to worship such a God for ever and ever? Almighty God is a righteous Judge, no body in the F&W fellowship or in any other church for that matter, will or can decide who goes to heaven or to hell. You can be rest assured of that; those who exalt themselves will be abased.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 18:25:32 GMT -5
The 2x2 message is; just some of the F&W are saved, and the rest go to hell. This message is part of the reason for the falling away. Even if you are 100% correct would you want to worship such a God for ever and ever? Almighty God is a righteous Judge, no body in the F&W fellowship or in any other church for that matter, will or can decide who goes to heaven or to hell. You can be rest assured of that; those who exalt themselves will be abased. The workers said; only by hearing the word from them can any be saved. All the others that preach are hireling and the false preachers. All of them and their following go to hell. In this gospel message who are the "special true preachers" exalted above all the rest? PS: I like your tag line, I agree with you on that.
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Post by xna on Nov 24, 2014 19:18:42 GMT -5
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