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Post by Scott Ross on May 20, 2011 14:42:17 GMT -5
But that doesn't surprise you coming from me now does it?
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Post by emy on May 20, 2011 15:10:42 GMT -5
But that doesn't surprise you coming from me now does it? What? You see yourself as a moron but a breath of fresh air?? ;D Al, I think FS meant there is no normal!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 20, 2011 15:12:13 GMT -5
But that doesn't surprise you coming from me now does it? What? You see yourself as a moron but a breath of fresh air?? ;D Al, I think FS meant there is no normal! You're right, emy . . . and I did get it, but I guess my head's just too much into this academic usage for right now . . .
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Post by Scott Ross on May 20, 2011 15:24:29 GMT -5
What? You see yourself as a moron but a breath of fresh air?? Uhhhh... hmmmm... well, I am not sure about the fresh air..... Ha!!
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Post by burdenofproof on May 20, 2011 15:37:09 GMT -5
Enjoyed browsing this thread...this topic of outward appearances seem to recycle...not that there is anything WRONG with that...as long as it is an issue it will continue to come up. Someone posted something to the affect that perhaps women should not be so anxious about how they look or having the perfectly "acceptable" updo/bun for meeting and instead spend more care/concern about the time they spend alone with God in prayer, reading, meditation, etc. I would agree with that, whenever that is the case. I do believe that there are some professing females (young or older, both) who do take a fairly low-maintenance approach to their looks-they do not go to the hairdressers, do not spend money or time dying their hair or having it professionally (no pun intended) styled, but they do spend a fair amount of time getting their long hair ready and "presentable" before meetings...all you have to do is go into the women's dorms at convention to know that the usage of blow-dryers&curling irons and electricity use is SO HIGH before the morning meeting on Sunday that it can cause a short circuit and seriously affect the ability of others on the grounds to use electric power... Now, mind you, this is really an area that can give us all a good chuckle, for sure...and has become a joke among some people. So, what's my point? Well, just that what is wrong with just combing your hair out and letting it lay as is to dry naturally in the fresh air? Is it somehow indecent to where your wet hair out and flowing? I don't think so, as this is really less fuss and time consuming than to wash it, blow dry it, curl it, only to stick it up and away in a bun or updo. It really does take more effort to go to all that fuss and is not as low maintenance as one would think. One lady in the dorms said to me once (her hair was down and she was getting ready to fix it)- "Oh, I hate my hair. I look like a witch." To which I replied: "Well, the nice thing about hair is that if you don't like it, you can change it relatively easily." To which she looked at me as if I were a martian from outer space, to which I pleasantly smiled. But, here is my stance: We are given what we are given. We can learn to like it or love it as we live with it every day. Why not like it/love it? Why dislike or hate something that is given to you by God? And IF by chance, we just cannot somehow "make peace" with what we are given by God and learn to like it or love it, then we can make changes that bring about more peace. For example: if you have naturally wavy or curly hair and you don't like that, there are things you can do to straighten the hair and make it sleek...or you can do things that enhance the natural curl in a way that is more agreeable to you. You can work with what you've got. If you don't like the texture or the color of your hair, you can change it. For less than $7 dollars you can change the color of your hair to your liking. In this day and age, there are so many options! So many people, especially women, but men too, live out their lives disliking themselves and not really accepting themselves as the God-given temple He created! Is that "godly"? Where is the Godly peace in that? Where is the acceptance of what God has created? I seriously do not believe that God intended we go through life in a type of misery of "self-loathing"...just as we should not go around loathing other people, but instead loving other people...we should not loathe ourselves either. To loathe yourself is to loathe God's creation. I don't mean to sound as if I am preaching or on a soap box, but this boils down to a matter of practicality for me as much as anything else. fwiw-bop
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 16:09:51 GMT -5
Enjoyed browsing this thread...this topic of outward appearances seem to recycle...not that there is anything WRONG with that...as long as it is an issue it will continue to come up. Someone posted something to the affect that perhaps women should not be so anxious about how they look or having the perfectly "acceptable" updo/bun for meeting and instead spend more care/concern about the time they spend alone with God in prayer, reading, meditation, etc. I would agree with that, whenever that is the case. I do believe that there are some professing females (young or older, both) who do take a fairly low-maintenance approach to their looks-they do not go to the hairdressers, do not spend money or time dying their hair or having it professionally (no pun intended) styled, but they do spend a fair amount of time getting their long hair ready and "presentable" before meetings...all you have to do is go into the women's dorms at convention to know that the usage of blow-dryers&curling irons and electricity use is SO HIGH before the morning meeting on Sunday that it can cause a short circuit and seriously affect the ability of others on the grounds to use electric power... Now, mind you, this is really an area that can give us all a good chuckle, for sure...and has become a joke among some people. So, what's my point? Well, just that what is wrong with just combing your hair out and letting it lay as is to dry naturally in the fresh air? Is it somehow indecent to where your wet hair out and flowing? I don't think so, as this is really less fuss and time consuming than to wash it, blow dry it, curl it, only to stick it up and away in a bun or updo. It really does take more effort to go to all that fuss and is not as low maintenance as one would think. One lady in the dorms said to me once (her hair was down and she was getting ready to fix it)- "Oh, I hate my hair. I look like a witch." To which I replied: "Well, the nice thing about hair is that if you don't like it, you can change it relatively easily." To which she looked at me as if I were a martian from outer space, to which I pleasantly smiled. But, here is my stance: We are given what we are given. We can learn to like it or love it as we live with it every day. Why not like it/love it? Why dislike or hate something that is given to you by God? And IF by chance, we just cannot somehow "make peace" with what we are given by God and learn to like it or love it, then we can make changes that bring about more peace. For example: if you have naturally wavy or curly hair and you don't like that, there are things you can do to straighten the hair and make it sleek...or you can do things that enhance the natural curl in a way that is more agreeable to you. You can work with what you've got. If you don't like the texture or the color of your hair, you can change it. For less than $7 dollars you can change the color of your hair to your liking. In this day and age, there are so many options! So many people, especially women, but men too, live out their lives disliking themselves and not really accepting themselves as the God-given temple He created! Is that "godly"? Where is the Godly peace in that? Where is the acceptance of what God has created? I seriously do not believe that God intended we go through life in a type of misery of "self-loathing"...just as we should not go around loathing other people, but instead loving other people...we should not loathe ourselves either. To loathe yourself is to loathe God's creation. I don't mean to sound as if I am preaching or on a soap box, but this boils down to a matter of practicality for me as much as anything else. fwiw-bop i appreciate your stance on liking/loving what God has created .. which is the YOU that He has made .. complaining about it, well, what good does that do? But the sad reality is that there are a lot of people who are not truly "happy with themselves" .. and THAT is a BURDEN that people carry around .. ---no magic wand to wave around a just "fix" that problem as peoples' dislike of themselves or something about themselves doesn't always just disappear as soon as they have a different hair color .. it is often more deeply rooted .. the case you describe of the woman stating she hated her hair, well, likely while she made that statement ..at the SAME time keeping her hair the way it currently was/is is a point of righteousness or godly conviction .. maybe-maybe not .. maybe she feels she has NO CHOICE in the matter and is just "stuck" with her hair as is .. ---sad if that is case to such as extent that it robs her of peace and joy .. i mean, c'mon, to go around saying you hate your hair and that you look like witch, well, that doesn't sound too happy/content to me! .. .....if someone is content with what they have they do not protest too much .. .. to quietly and contently have a godly conviction with no need to broadcast it, or to make it a greater issue than it needs to be is a good balance and actually INDICATES that the conviction really IS godly, not of SELF or part of habit or bondage. ---your given scenario in the dorm speaks of someone who perhaps has her hair the way it is, but is not happy with that .. so what is worse: doing something different and being truly content with the outcome or...... just doing something because it is supposed to be righteous or it is what is "expected" and NOT being content/at peace with the outcome? .. personally, I think it is not only WORSE, but it is also disingenuous to do something, and resent doing it .. all in the name of "righteousness/self-righteousness" .. disingenuous being a type of dishonesty ..
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Post by burdenofproof on May 20, 2011 16:35:08 GMT -5
Enjoyed browsing this thread...this topic of outward appearances seem to recycle...not that there is anything WRONG with that...as long as it is an issue it will continue to come up. Someone posted something to the affect that perhaps women should not be so anxious about how they look or having the perfectly "acceptable" updo/bun for meeting and instead spend more care/concern about the time they spend alone with God in prayer, reading, meditation, etc. I would agree with that, whenever that is the case. I do believe that there are some professing females (young or older, both) who do take a fairly low-maintenance approach to their looks-they do not go to the hairdressers, do not spend money or time dying their hair or having it professionally (no pun intended) styled, but they do spend a fair amount of time getting their long hair ready and "presentable" before meetings...all you have to do is go into the women's dorms at convention to know that the usage of blow-dryers&curling irons and electricity use is SO HIGH before the morning meeting on Sunday that it can cause a short circuit and seriously affect the ability of others on the grounds to use electric power... Now, mind you, this is really an area that can give us all a good chuckle, for sure...and has become a joke among some people. So, what's my point? Well, just that what is wrong with just combing your hair out and letting it lay as is to dry naturally in the fresh air? Is it somehow indecent to where your wet hair out and flowing? I don't think so, as this is really less fuss and time consuming than to wash it, blow dry it, curl it, only to stick it up and away in a bun or updo. It really does take more effort to go to all that fuss and is not as low maintenance as one would think. One lady in the dorms said to me once (her hair was down and she was getting ready to fix it)- "Oh, I hate my hair. I look like a witch." To which I replied: "Well, the nice thing about hair is that if you don't like it, you can change it relatively easily." To which she looked at me as if I were a martian from outer space, to which I pleasantly smiled. But, here is my stance: We are given what we are given. We can learn to like it or love it as we live with it every day. Why not like it/love it? Why dislike or hate something that is given to you by God? And IF by chance, we just cannot somehow "make peace" with what we are given by God and learn to like it or love it, then we can make changes that bring about more peace. For example: if you have naturally wavy or curly hair and you don't like that, there are things you can do to straighten the hair and make it sleek...or you can do things that enhance the natural curl in a way that is more agreeable to you. You can work with what you've got. If you don't like the texture or the color of your hair, you can change it. For less than $7 dollars you can change the color of your hair to your liking. In this day and age, there are so many options! So many people, especially women, but men too, live out their lives disliking themselves and not really accepting themselves as the God-given temple He created! Is that "godly"? Where is the Godly peace in that? Where is the acceptance of what God has created? I seriously do not believe that God intended we go through life in a type of misery of "self-loathing"...just as we should not go around loathing other people, but instead loving other people...we should not loathe ourselves either. To loathe yourself is to loathe God's creation. I don't mean to sound as if I am preaching or on a soap box, but this boils down to a matter of practicality for me as much as anything else. fwiw-bop i appreciate your stance on liking/loving what God has created .. which is the YOU that He has made .. complaining about it, well, what good does that do? But the sad reality is that there are a lot of people who are not truly "happy with themselves" .. and THAT is a BURDEN that people carry around .. ---no magic wand to wave around a just "fix" that problem as peoples' dislike of themselves or something about themselves doesn't always just disappear as soon as they have a different hair color .. it is often more deeply rooted .. the case you describe of the woman stating she hated her hair, well, likely while she made that statement ..at the SAME time keeping her hair the way it currently was/is is a point of righteousness or godly conviction .. maybe-maybe not .. maybe she feels she has NO CHOICE in the matter and is just "stuck" with her hair as is .. ---sad if that is case to such as extent that it robs her of peace and joy .. i mean, c'mon, to go around saying you hate your hair and that you look like witch, well, that doesn't sound too happy/content to me! .. .....if someone is content with what they have they do not protest too much .. .. to quietly and contently have a godly conviction with no need to broadcast it, or to make it a greater issue than it needs to be is a good balance and actually INDICATES that the conviction really IS godly, not of SELF or part of habit or bondage. ---your given scenario in the dorm speaks of someone who perhaps has her hair the way it is, but is not happy with that .. so what is worse: doing something different and being truly content with the outcome or...... just doing something because it is supposed to be righteous or it is what is "expected" and NOT being content/at peace with the outcome? .. personally, I think it is not only WORSE, but it is also disingenuous to do something, and resent doing it .. all in the name of "righteousness/self-righteousness" .. disingenuous being a type of dishonesty .. There is something to be said for quiet confidence! I know it when I see it in others and that is something I want more of in myself as well, although I have been accused of being a confident woman as it is. There is always room for improvement, but why not have peace while you are at it? For me, the appearance issue has a very practical side to it, but it can have a spiritual side as well. I believe that we are to glorify God. Therefore, if I am confused about something or maybe just not quite sure about something, I ask myself this: "Am I glorifying God?" Yes, or no....or maybe... There are different ways that we can glorify God, our Father. Some may not reach out and grab you or seem obvious. We can be DECEIVED as to what is TRULY glorifying to Him and what is not. I think for the most part beauty is a type of glory-it can glorify God but it can glorify us too-but He is the One who made us. Beauty, be it physical or spiritual, inside/inward or outside/outward is ultimately a thing that should glorify God-[all things made possible by Him]. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with looking good or looking beautiful-but it is perhaps HOW we choose to glory in it that makes it less virtuous. On the other hand, if as the case may be, perhaps it is not in how we just APPEAR that is beautiful, but it is the spirit that is beautiful...and again, we shouldn't have self-glory for that either-BUT, it is possible to take self-glory in being of a certain type of righteousness...even if one downplays their looks to a great extent...If one truly has a beautiful spirit, they do not need to TELL other people: "I am beautiful on the inside..." Satan will get you coming or going....one may THINK that they are taking a more "righteous" path by not being "vain" about their looks by keeping themselves looking "plain & humble"...but that can be deceptive.... So, I think it is good to ask yourself this from time to time : "Who am I really glorifying and HOW am I going about that?" fwiw-bop
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Post by apple on May 20, 2011 16:37:41 GMT -5
More of the younger (under 40-which to me is 'younger') women are starting to dress more modestly now (definition of modesty meaning not to draw attention to ones self in a normal group of people) and sensibly (wearing appropriate clothing for what you are doing) The under 40's single women are known for dressing inappriopately to attact male attentions.There they are at special meetings and conventions in tight skirts swaying in their expensive high heels admidst the older generation women in their drab clothes and their buns screwed in place. Modest they are not.Sensible they are not.There is nothing modest (or Christian) about flaunting one's wealth and that includes swaning about in expensive clothes sneering at those who aren't quite so well off.And there's nothing sensible about wearing very high heels in winter. Blending in with society does not make one "modest" but rather "immodest" because society does not follow God's word.The real Christian does not judge his or her standards by the non-believer world around him but by God's word.God says not to be conformed to the world and that would include the fashions of the world: Romans 12:2 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. John 15:19 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.....17 Therefore, “ Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” James 1:27 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.James 4:4 4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
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Post by burdenofproof on May 20, 2011 17:00:11 GMT -5
More of the younger (under 40-which to me is 'younger') women are starting to dress more modestly now (definition of modesty meaning not to draw attention to ones self in a normal group of people) and sensibly (wearing appropriate clothing for what you are doing) The under 40's single women are known for dressing inappriopately to attact male attentions.There they are at special meetings and conventions in tight skirts swaying in their expensive high heels admidst the older generation women in their drab clothes and their buns screwed in place.
Modest they are not.Sensible they are not.There is nothing modest (or Christian) about flaunting one's wealth and that includes swaning about in expensive clothes sneering at those who aren't quite so well off.And there's nothing sensible about wearing very high heels in winter.
Blending in with society does not make one "modest" but rather "immodest" because society does not follow God's word.The real Christian does not judge his or her standards by the non-believer world around him but by God's word.God says not to be conformed to the world and that would include the fashions of the world: [/i][/quote] And then....God created a happy medium and healthy balance. One can look nice, appropriate,tasteful, stylish, modest, attractive, and be sensibly dressed without resorting to either extreme....One extreme being dull, unattractive and the other flashy/showy/immodest - attention seeking - but, these young girls at convention...they have been dressing this way since forever ago...it is normal behavior for teenage girls to make themselves up nice...to acheive that "made up" look as convention is often viewed as an opportunity to meet and greet and network and find a professing boyfriend for a possible future professing spouse-which is approved on by friends and workers alike. What is a kid to do? Well, here is what often happens in that interpretation:...do as much as you can get away with...which leaves a lot of leeway...for if one simply wears a skirt and an updo, that is considered the "acceptable" attire for a young professing lady. But, oh, there are so many OTHER variations & things she can do or wear that show off her comeliness to its most advantageous way possible! I don't judge these girls for that, but I am a woman and not the least bit tempted or distracted by that either...Although, I do not understand the extreme high heels, just as a matter of practicality. My observation about many professing women, especially middle age and older is that it is or has somehow become likened to "sin" to be attractive or appealing in appearance. This seems like reverse of glorifying God as God has created everything, the world, the universe and everything in it, including the birds and bees and beauty and the power of ATTRACTION. As Children of God we should be "winsome". Meaning: To "win" others over to Christ by being generally pleasing and engaging! fwiw-bop
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Post by apple on May 20, 2011 17:26:17 GMT -5
The under 40's single women are known for dressing inappriopately to attact male attentions.There they are at special meetings and conventions in tight skirts swaying in their expensive high heels admidst the older generation women in their drab clothes and their buns screwed in place.
Modest they are not.Sensible they are not.There is nothing modest (or Christian) about flaunting one's wealth and that includes swaning about in expensive clothes sneering at those who aren't quite so well off.And there's nothing sensible about wearing very high heels in winter.
Blending in with society does not make one "modest" but rather "immodest" because society does not follow God's word.The real Christian does not judge his or her standards by the non-believer world around him but by God's word.God says not to be conformed to the world and that would include the fashions of the world: [/i][/quote] And then....God created a happy medium and healthy balance. One can look nice, appropriate, modest and be sensibly dressed without resorting to either extreme....One extreme being dull, unattractive and the other flashy/showy - attention seeking - but, these young girls at convention...they have been dressing this way since forever ago...it is normal behavior for teenage girls to make themselves up nice...to acheive that "made up" look as convention is often viewed as an opportunity to meet and greet and network and find a professing boyfriend for a possible future professing spouse-which is approved on by friends and workers alike. What is a kid to do? Well, here is what often happens in that interpretation:...do as much as you can get away with...which leaves a lot of leeway...for if one simply wears a skirt and an updo, that is considered the "acceptable" attire for a young professing lady. But, oh, there are so many OTHER variations & things she can do or wear that show off her comeliness to its most advantageous way possible! I don't judge these girls for that, but I am a woman and not the least bit tempted or distracted by that either...Although, I do not understand the extreme high heels, just as a matter of practicality. My observation about many professing women, especially middle age and older is that it is or has somehow become likened to "sin" to be attractive or appealing in appearance. This seems like reverse of glorifying God as God has created everything, the world, the universe and everything in it, including the birds and bees and beauty and the power of ATTRACTION. As Children of God we should be "winsome". Meaning: To "win" others over to Christ by being generally pleasing and engaging! fwiw-bop[/quote] I agree.It is natural for each new generation to try to be different to the last one and it's natural for teens to push the boundaries.For those brought up in the meetings, on reaching their teeange years it is very important for them to be able to express themselves.Equally important for them is to be able stand out from the dowdy emsembles of their elders and to be able to attract a boyfriend/girlfriend in a narrow pool. However as the meetings folks still feel superior to those not in the meetings ("worldly people") I don't have much sympathy for them when they dress like "the world" while feeling better than those they are choosing to copy.It is one of the many double standards in the meetings.If they ditched the exclusivist attitude I'd be more accepting of their micro miniskirts, makeup, dyed hair and skyscraper high heels. Yes, a happy medium does need to be met and a few of the younger folks have achieved it but most of the young folks in reaction to the strict rules and the dowdy uniforms their parents had dressed them in for so long have joyfully embraced the shortest, tightest clothes they can get away with- and who can blame them? I shudder at recalling what my mom had me wear and I recall as a tween been sblack personed at by some girls my age on account of my frumpy clothes.There are certain clothes I will not wear because of their association with the meeting.Naturally teens will rebell against rules and 2x2 teens have it harder which is why they can be so wild.I just wish they didn't go about snubbing those who cannot afford to dress head to toe in brand clothing and didn't act like they are better than the very people they minic.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 17:39:13 GMT -5
And then....God created a happy medium and healthy balance. One can look nice, appropriate, modest and be sensibly dressed without resorting to either extreme....One extreme being dull, unattractive and the other flashy/showy - attention seeking - but, these young girls at convention...they have been dressing this way since forever ago...it is normal behavior for teenage girls to make themselves up nice...to acheive that "made up" look as convention is often viewed as an opportunity to meet and greet and network and find a professing boyfriend for a possible future professing spouse-which is approved on by friends and workers alike. What is a kid to do? Well, here is what often happens in that interpretation:...do as much as you can get away with...which leaves a lot of leeway...for if one simply wears a skirt and an updo, that is considered the "acceptable" attire for a young professing lady. But, oh, there are so many OTHER variations & things she can do or wear that show off her comeliness to its most advantageous way possible! I don't judge these girls for that, but I am a woman and not the least bit tempted or distracted by that either...Although, I do not understand the extreme high heels, just as a matter of practicality. My observation about many professing women, especially middle age and older is that it is or has somehow become likened to "sin" to be attractive or appealing in appearance. This seems like reverse of glorifying God as God has created everything, the world, the universe and everything in it, including the birds and bees and beauty and the power of ATTRACTION. As Children of God we should be "winsome". Meaning: To "win" others over to Christ by being generally pleasing and engaging! fwiw-bop I agree.It is natural for each new generation to try to be different to the last one and it's natural for teens to push the boundaries.For those brought up in the meetings, on reaching their teeange years it is very important for them to be able to express themselves.Equally important for them is to be able stand out from the dowdy emsembles of their elders and to be able to attract a boyfriend/girlfriend in a narrow pool. However as the meetings folks still feel superior to those not in the meetings ("worldly people") I don't have much sympathy for them when they dress like "the world" while feeling better than those they are choosing to copy.It is one of the many double standards in the meetings.If they ditched the exclusivist attitude I'd be more accepting of their micro miniskirts, makeup, dyed hair and skyscraper high heels. Yes, a happy medium does need to be met and a few of the younger folks have achieved it but most of the young folks in reaction to the strict rules and the dowdy uniforms their parents had dressed them in for so long have joyfully embraced the shortest, tightest clothes they can get away with- and who can blame them? I shudder at recalling what my mom had me wear and I recall as a tween been sblack personed at by some girls my age on account of my frumpy clothes.There are certain clothes I will not wear because of their association with the meeting.Naturally teens will rebell against rules and 2x2 teens have it harder which is why they can be so wild.I just wish they didn't go about snubbing those who cannot afford to dress head to toe in brand clothing and didn't act like they are better than the very people they minic. .. for a lot of teenagers at convention, it IS not so much about wanting to show off as it is "fitting in" with the other teenagers at convention .. AND 'being cool' which also means being "in style" and fitting in with the cool fashions and this has been going on forever .. in the '70's it was all platform heels, and Gunne Sax (gunny sacks) dresses that could be quite expensive, but very in and attractive .."the thing", high heels at convention is nothing new .. feathered bangs were on the "edge" .. .. and it was fun to experiment and swap shoes with other girls .. ---if the brother workers were somehow tempted by me and my sisters and friends at convention, it was not because we set out to do that .. we were just being normal teenage girls .. some of us more into fashion and dressing up than others .. and the "snobbish" girls who turned their noses up for wearing more expensive clothing, etc, that is so not anything new either .. this is a group thing .. and by the way, I HATE cliques .. find them stifling .. not to mention destructive .. .. ---the "problem" you are referring jto encompasses much more than just some people thinking they are better than others, when really, maybe they are not .. sad to be deceived that way as someday the truth will hit and it will be a sad day when it does if one does not wise up sooner and realize that God is not a respecter of persons and that EVERYONE is a V.I.P. IN GOD'S EYES! .. AMEN! .. but what can happen is a type of "reverse" superiority .. in which those that are less "privileged" or have less in the material sense look down on those that are more affluent, etc. -- it is not always clearly evident who is "looking down" on whom?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 17:41:38 GMT -5
The under 40's single women are known for dressing inappriopately to attact male attentions.There they are at special meetings and conventions in tight skirts swaying in their expensive high heels admidst the older generation women in their drab clothes and their buns screwed in place.
Modest they are not.Sensible they are not.There is nothing modest (or Christian) about flaunting one's wealth and that includes swaning about in expensive clothes sneering at those who aren't quite so well off.And there's nothing sensible about wearing very high heels in winter.
Blending in with society does not make one "modest" but rather "immodest" because society does not follow God's word.The real Christian does not judge his or her standards by the non-believer world around him but by God's word.God says not to be conformed to the world and that would include the fashions of the world: [/i][/quote] And then....God created a happy medium and healthy balance. One can look nice, appropriate,tasteful, stylish, modest, attractive, and be sensibly dressed without resorting to either extreme....One extreme being dull, unattractive and the other flashy/showy/immodest - attention seeking - but, these young girls at convention...they have been dressing this way since forever ago...it is normal behavior for teenage girls to make themselves up nice...to acheive that "made up" look as convention is often viewed as an opportunity to meet and greet and network and find a professing boyfriend for a possible future professing spouse-which is approved on by friends and workers alike. What is a kid to do? Well, here is what often happens in that interpretation:...do as much as you can get away with...which leaves a lot of leeway...for if one simply wears a skirt and an updo, that is considered the "acceptable" attire for a young professing lady. But, oh, there are so many OTHER variations & things she can do or wear that show off her comeliness to its most advantageous way possible! I don't judge these girls for that, but I am a woman and not the least bit tempted or distracted by that either...Although, I do not understand the extreme high heels, just as a matter of practicality. My observation about many professing women, especially middle age and older is that it is or has somehow become likened to "sin" to be attractive or appealing in appearance. This seems like reverse of glorifying God as God has created everything, the world, the universe and everything in it, including the birds and bees and beauty and the power of ATTRACTION. As Children of God we should be "winsome". Meaning: To "win" others over to Christ by being generally pleasing and engaging! fwiw-bop[/quote] .. i agree! it is about being a winsome Child of God! And being "winsome" can be achieved in various ways .. not just by a winsome appearance, but also by a winsome personality & attitude & spirit .. ---good looks are only going to get you so far .. but that doesn't mean that good looks are disqualified ..
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Post by emy on May 20, 2011 17:49:14 GMT -5
.. i agree! it is about being a winsome Child of God! And being "winsome" can be achieved in various ways .. not just by a winsome appearance, but also by a winsome personality & attitude & spirit .. ---good looks are only going to get you so far .. but that doesn't mean that good looks are disqualified .. At our special meeting one of the sister workers spoke about this verse: Titus 2:10 ...that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. She was not speaking about how women should dress, but how each one of us should act - much like psychichic said about personality, attitude and spirit.
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Post by freespirit on May 20, 2011 19:22:22 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this thread I feel the urge to light my protection-from-the-holier-than-thou candle. Seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 19:37:05 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this thread I feel the urge to go light my protection-from-the-holier-than-thou candle. Seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. .. you mention the "holier-than-thou types" .. and i can relate to that attitude coming off mainly from some professing women, [usually middle age or older, but sometimes younger than 40 as well] who carry off a superior attitude or a "holier-than-thou" attitude because they feel they are more modest and righteous and less vain because they don't do anything much for their looks .. they don't put much care into taking care of their skin and hair .. they go sans make-up and feel that that is a superior way to be as a "godly woman" .. ---nothing wrong with any of those things .. unless they do indeed judge OTHERS by that and feel they are somehow "better" because they are somehow less vain .. ---IF they were totally non-vain about it, it wouldn't even be in their thinking to think that they are better, more righteous, etc. .. but i think that if we all examine ourselves honestly, we would admit we all have areas of vanity in us .. vanity can be tied into anything that can contribute to vexation of spirit ..judging others wrongly and feeling superior over others is indeed a vexation of spirit .. one may think they are taking some sort of high road and being less vain, etc, (more plain, less vain), but they are deceived if they have ANY type of feelings of needing to compare themselves to others to feel justified, exalted, .. or needing to POINT OUT their area(s) of righteousness ..
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 19:59:37 GMT -5
.. i agree! it is about being a winsome Child of God! And being "winsome" can be achieved in various ways .. not just by a winsome appearance, but also by a winsome personality & attitude & spirit .. ---good looks are only going to get you so far .. but that doesn't mean that good looks are disqualified .. At our special meeting one of the sister workers spoke about this verse: Titus 2:10 ...that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. She was not speaking about how women should dress, but how each one of us should act - much like psychichic said about personality, attitude and spirit. yes, much of being winsome is in how you conduct yourself, your conversation, what you talk about, etc. .. but we also express ourselves or I should say our "selves" are also expressed in how we dress and our overall appearance sends a message out. --- when sizing a person up, say you may take note on whether or not they look disheveled and dirty or clean and nicely groomed. when a person is right in their mind, it is reflected in their appearance, their eye contact, their mannerisms, their speech .. there are a lot of signs and symptoms when a person is upset, or distraught or mentally derranged, psychotic, etc. .. just as when a person has a nice, calm, peaceful demeaner, it is in sharp constrast to someone is not not calm and peaceful or at ease .. one problem that people get into is they seem to think that "looks don't matter at all" .. and that is one extreme .. looks DO matter to an extent .. but should not be overemphasized ..
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Post by Scott Ross on May 20, 2011 21:19:20 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this thread I feel the urge to light my protection-from-the-holier-than-thou candle. Seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. NOT ME!!! I think a woman should dress the way they feel convicted to do. Why isn't anyone talking about the men here? Is an expensive suit and tie on a brother worker modest? How about farmer Brown who shows up for meeting in his best clean bib overalls? Is he out of place for dressing that way? Isn't that more modest than the expensive suit and tie? Funny how it all revolves around how the women look isn't it...... Stupid really.... I have found that those who go to extremes to present a 'modest' (in their own eyes) look are actually showing just as much vanity as those who spend time making themselves look good. Just my opinion of course so not worth a whole lot..... Scott
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Post by freespirit on May 20, 2011 22:33:38 GMT -5
uuuuuuuh, Scott... you realize that these two things contradict each other, don't you? NOT ME!!! I think a woman should dress the way they feel convicted to do. I have found that those who go to extremes to present a 'modest' (in their own eyes) look are actually showing just as much vanity as those who spend time making themselves look good. Just my opinion of course so not worth a whole lot..... As I was saying... seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. *shrug*
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Post by freespirit on May 20, 2011 22:38:10 GMT -5
Funny how it all revolves around how the women look isn't it...... Stupid really.... Yup. Stupid. It's impossible to please everyone. And it will tie a woman in knots if she tries.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 20, 2011 23:51:20 GMT -5
uuuuuuuh, Scott... you realize that these two things contradict each other, don't you? NOT ME!!! I think a woman should dress the way they feel convicted to do. I have found that those who go to extremes to present a 'modest' (in their own eyes) look are actually showing just as much vanity as those who spend time making themselves look good. Just my opinion of course so not worth a whole lot..... As I was saying... seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. *shrug* Nope. I don't think that they contradict each other. I think that those that 'go to extremes' do so to conform to someone else's convictions on how they should look, not their own. But I have been wrong before, so I'll accept that to you it is a contradiction.
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Post by freespirit on May 21, 2011 0:00:24 GMT -5
Scott, "modest (in their own eyes)" is very different from "conform to someone else's convictions on how they should look."
Which one did you mean?
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Post by burdenofproof on May 21, 2011 0:05:14 GMT -5
At our special meeting one of the sister workers spoke about this verse: Titus 2:10 ...that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. She was not speaking about how women should dress, but how each one of us should act - much like psychichic said about personality, attitude and spirit. yes, much of being winsome is in how you conduct yourself, your conversation, what you talk about, etc. .. but we also express ourselves or I should say our "selves" are also expressed in how we dress and our overall appearance sends a message out. --- when sizing a person up, say you may take note on whether or not they look disheveled and dirty or clean and nicely groomed. when a person is right in their mind, it is reflected in their appearance, their eye contact, their mannerisms, their speech .. there are a lot of signs and symptoms when a person is upset, or distraught or mentally derranged, psychotic, etc. .. just as when a person has a nice, calm, peaceful demeaner, it is in sharp constrast to someone is not not calm and peaceful or at ease .. one problem that people get into is they seem to think that "looks don't matter at all" .. and that is one extreme .. looks DO matter to an extent .. but should not be overemphasized .. The mention of "expressing oneself" or people expressing themselves reminds me that there is a vast array of how people can express themselves in this world...and whether one is religious or not, they can really get caught up in that. I think perhaps the impetus behind what writings we have in scripture that relate to outward appearances has to do with striking the right balance; finding a healthy/happy medium...but most of all...[from the Christian perspective] that the Spirit of Christ would be expressed in our lives...that His Light would shine from our lives...that we would neither seek to cover up the Holy Spirit that lives in us nor take the glory or credit for any true Righteousness that exudes from our personna...Obviously, if what we find in Scripture is anything to go by, getting it just right has always been a challenge and a problem that needed to be addressed....That we would somehow "get it" that sure, we can adorn ourselves with all sorts of things and dress up in several different ways and styles...but the most important thing is to have a Christ-like Spirit and to not cause any contention.fwiw-bop
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Post by burdenofproof on May 21, 2011 0:16:17 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this thread I feel the urge to go light my protection-from-the-holier-than-thou candle. Seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. .. you mention the "holier-than-thou types" .. and i can relate to that attitude coming off mainly from some professing women, [usually middle age or older, but sometimes younger than 40 as well] who carry off a superior attitude or a "holier-than-thou" attitude because they feel they are more modest and righteous and less vain because they don't do anything much for their looks .. they don't put much care into taking care of their skin and hair .. they go sans make-up and feel that that is a superior way to be as a "godly woman" .. ---nothing wrong with any of those things .. unless they do indeed judge OTHERS by that and feel they are somehow "better" because they are somehow less vain .. ---IF they were totally non-vain about it, it wouldn't even be in their thinking to think that they are better, more righteous, etc. .. but i think that if we all examine ourselves honestly, we would admit we all have areas of vanity in us .. vanity can be tied into anything that can contribute to vexation of spirit ..judging others wrongly and feeling superior over others is indeed a vexation of spirit .. one may think they are taking some sort of high road and being less vain, etc, (more plain, less vain), but they are deceived if they have ANY type of feelings of needing to compare themselves to others to feel justified, exalted, .. or needing to POINT OUT their area(s) of righteousness .. Agreed that we all have areas of vanity in our lives. I think that is just part of the human condition. Can we really get totally away from it? As long as we live with our flesh, vanity will be hanging around us in some form. If we think we have it licked in the area of say, looks, then we don't have to look very far to find it cropping up in another area of our lives. Some people set a lot of store in looking just so and maybe that is their area of vanity...but the next person may not be so hung up on looks, however is vain about collecting material possessions that will have no worth in Heaven, just as our earthly bodies will pass away and we will not take them with us after they die; all the earthly possessions that we "collect" that may have meaning or special significance or sentimental value...I'm not saying that we should do away with those things altogether, but my point is, that no matter how hard we try to rid ourselves of all vain things in this earthly existence, we are going to have some vanity as part of living. We can decide to strike a certain balance though, that is healthy...to enjoy the gifts we are given, but not put too much stock in anything that is but temporal. fwiw-bop
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Post by quizzer on May 21, 2011 0:47:26 GMT -5
I am far more comfortable with this thread now than I have been. It's been mentioned on TMB how the dress code for women has "lightened up" and become more "fashionable." My own observations have contradicted this.
I'm in agreement with these later posts that women still need to "fit in" to a particular dress code. The dress code hasn't changed much, and the attitude toward the dress code is still the same. "Fit in or else" is screamed at professing women.
The saddest part is that professing women are not in charge of their physical appearance. Their teen-age years are not free to experiment with different looks. In the end, they have a plain appearance which is imposed on them, not chosen by them.
Call it what you will - modest, fashionable, stylish, plain. It's sad.
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Post by kiwi on May 21, 2011 2:03:35 GMT -5
I am far more comfortable with this thread now than I have been. It's been mentioned on TMB how the dress code for women has "lightened up" and become more "fashionable." My own observations have contradicted this. I'm in agreement with these later posts that women still need to "fit in" to a particular dress code. The dress code hasn't changed much, and the attitude toward the dress code is still the same. "Fit in or else" is screamed at professing women. The saddest part is that professing women are not in charge of their physical appearance. Their teen-age years are not free to experiment with different looks. In the end, they have a plain appearance which is imposed on them, not chosen by them. Call it what you will - modest, fashionable, stylish, plain. It's sad. Lot of what you say panders to the flesh.
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Post by emerald on May 21, 2011 8:00:15 GMT -5
That's not what I said. Read it again with your head out of the sand. This may be a male/female issue. Some of the social rules are so illogical that men sometimes just don't get it and if you try to explain it to them, their eyes glaze over. ;D Tosh. Kiwi has said that he can speak for us females, therefore strange as it may seem, he thinks like us. His confusion is just a little issue of sand in his eyes.
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Post by apple on May 21, 2011 8:20:02 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this thread I feel the urge to light my protection-from-the-holier-than-thou candle. Seems like everybody and their dog has opinion and criticism about what we women should wear. NOT ME!!! I think a woman should dress the way they feel convicted to do. Why isn't anyone talking about the men here? Is an expensive suit and tie on a brother worker modest? How about farmer Brown who shows up for meeting in his best clean bib overalls? Is he out of place for dressing that way? Isn't that more modest than the expensive suit and tie? Scott The reason why mens attire is not being discussed is because they are so few rules for men and so many for women.The average 2x2 male on an ordinary weekday or relaxing on a Saturday does not stand out but the average 2x2 woman always stands out.Regarding dress rules, the men get off so light- they don't get plagued by the guilt women get for simple things like for wanting to trim heavy hair and trousers are never out of fashion the way skirts can be.About 2 months before convention starts women have to start looking for suitable skirts.Some years the fashion changes and there are few skirts to be found but we still have to somehow turn up in the worker required skirts.There's also so much pressure for women to buy expensive clothing because wearing clothes that aren't expensive enough for our peers is seen as "disrespectful".This kind of nonsense is no different to the Catholics being expected to give children hundreds of pounds on their communion and conformation.No one should be obliged to spend beyond what they cannot afford just to be expected to fit in.For those who feel they must remain the meetings lest they go to hell, the burden must be hard indeed.But men buy a few suits and that will do them for the meetings and conventions, all they have to do is change a shirt/tie/shoe and they don't look dated.Suits tend to be much better quality than the average skirt and therefore are longer lasting.Skirts, blouses and womens' shoes tend to be such soddy quality so they need to be replaced often and of course that all adds up.
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Post by ScholarGal on May 21, 2011 11:42:24 GMT -5
No one should be obliged to spend beyond what they cannot afford just to be expected to fit in.For those who feel they must remain the meetings lest they go to hell, the burden must be hard indeed.But men buy a few suits and that will do them for the meetings and conventions, all they have to do is change a shirt/tie/shoe and they don't look dated.Suits tend to be much better quality than the average skirt and therefore are longer lasting.Skirts, blouses and womens' shoes tend to be such soddy quality so they need to be replaced often and of course that all adds up. Your reality doesn't match my reality. I rarely buy new clothes before convention. Why would I want to wear brand-new stuff out in the dusty convention grounds? Or slop through mud puddles if it happens to be a wet year? Last year I had a near miss on a fashion disaster at convention. I got dressed in the morning at home, then changed clothes after I spilled my breakfast all over myself. When I arrived at the convention grounds, I discovered another woman wearing the same dress as I had been wearing that morning. (I had purchased the dress at least 3 years earlier at Target for $18.) I joked about the "near miss" with her, and she told me that her mother had found the dress at a second-hand shop. Men's suits usually cost as much as 5-6 women's skirts/dresses. Considering the amount of wear I get out of many of my skirts, I don't think the cost per wear is much different for women's clothing. Quizzer says the dress code hasn't changed. I disagree. I see lots of professing women who wear clothing that looks very normal in the workplace or at the shopping mall. Example
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