will
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Post by will on Feb 23, 2011 16:28:40 GMT -5
I saw this ad www.newtondailynews.com/articles/2011/02/20/r_5byubhlfsegy9kwnu0lfww/index.xml and it made me question the use of the term "non-denominational", etc. From what I read about the Faith Mission, I think they are indeed "non-denominational". However, the F&W really is a denomination even though it pretends not to be. I also wonder about "no collections taken" as people palm bills into the workers hands while handshaking after meeting. Guess repitition makes folks believe even untruths.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 16:45:50 GMT -5
To get the terms more currently correct, I think the F&W group is more accurately described as a sect, not a denomination. Denominations consider each other as branches of the same vine. Sects consider themselves the only branch on the vine.
So in a sense, that ad is correct regarding non-denominational-ism, although not as it is intended. It is trying to portray no institution or organized church system at all, nor that it is a sect when a sect is what it is.
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Post by mrlasns on Feb 23, 2011 19:04:11 GMT -5
The way i see it the 2x2's are probably registered with gov't but ain't telling 2x2 members...does any know if this standing today is correct
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Post by rational on Feb 23, 2011 19:08:19 GMT -5
The way i see it the 2x2's are probably registered with gov't but ain't telling 2x2 members...does any know if this standing today is correct There is a possibility that the 2x2s are part of the government and that is why no one questions the gifts that are given legally.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 23, 2011 20:47:32 GMT -5
To get the terms more currently correct, I think the F&W group is more accurately described as a sect, not a denomination. Denominations consider each other as branches of the same vine. Sects consider themselves the only branch on the vine. So in a sense, that ad is correct regarding non-denominational-ism, although not as it is intended. It is trying to portray no institution or organized church system at all, nor that it is a sect when a sect is what it is. I have never seen a definition of the word "sect" that includes "they consider themselves the only branch on the vine." I have seen that definition for a cult...i.e. all cults believe they alone possess God's only true way. My understanding was that a "sect" is usually a small breakaway religious group - and they often grow until they become a denomination. See Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 23, 2011 20:50:14 GMT -5
But "non-denominational" literally means "not-named," which is a big point with the F&W fellowship . . .
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Post by StAnne on Feb 23, 2011 21:47:31 GMT -5
wiki "In Christianity, non-denominational institutions or churches are those not formally aligned with an established denomination."
gotquestions "The simplest answer is that a non-denominational church is any church which is not part of a larger denomination."
Most non-denom churches do have names. I've never heard of a church besides 2x2 that doesn't have a name (correction ... that doesn't use their government registered name).
Doesn't mean there isn't one though. Curious...have any here encountered any other church that doesn't use a name?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 21:49:06 GMT -5
To get the terms more currently correct, I think the F&W group is more accurately described as a sect, not a denomination. Denominations consider each other as branches of the same vine. Sects consider themselves the only branch on the vine. So in a sense, that ad is correct regarding non-denominational-ism, although not as it is intended. It is trying to portray no institution or organized church system at all, nor that it is a sect when a sect is what it is. I have never seen a definition of the word "sect" that includes "they consider themselves the only branch on the vine." I have seen that definition for a cult...i.e. all cults believe they alone possess God's only true way. My understanding was that a "sect" is usually a small breakaway religious group - and they often grow until they become a denomination. See Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect Ahh, you didn't read the article I suggested for you last time. "In theory denominationalism is also sharply distinguishable from sectarianism. Each Christian sect sees itself as the only legitimate institutional expression of the followers of Christ." mb-soft.com/believe/text/denomina.htm
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 21:51:56 GMT -5
But "non-denominational" literally means "not-named," which is a big point with the F&W fellowship . . . Exactly Al. "The term "denomination" in general refers to anything distinguished by a name." mb-soft.com/believe/text/denomina.htmOf course, it has a larger context too though: " In religious contexts the designation has traditionally applied both to broad movements within Protestantism, such as Baptists and Methodists, and also to the numerous independent branches of such movements that have developed over the years primarily because of geographical expansion and theological controversy." We were always taught that it meant "no name" but also indicated that we weren't associated with any of those false churches who had a name.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 23, 2011 21:57:38 GMT -5
But "non-denominational" literally means "not-named," which is a big point with the F&W fellowship . . . Exactly Al. "The term "denomination" in general refers to anything distinguished by a name." mb-soft.com/believe/text/denomina.htmOf course, it has a larger context too though: You're right, CD . . . literal meanings are interesting, but things do take on a greater meaning in various contexts.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Feb 23, 2011 22:20:38 GMT -5
Non-Denominational to me means they wont stand for anything..Everything goes. Thats just an opinion though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 22:23:04 GMT -5
Non-Denominational to me means they wont stand for anything..Everything goes. Thats just an opinion though. No, that's the Undenominations......
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 23, 2011 22:25:01 GMT -5
Clearday wrote
Can you provide other sources who define the word "sect" in this manner?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 22:28:25 GMT -5
Clearday wrote Can you provide other sources who define the word "sect" in this manner? No.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Feb 23, 2011 22:33:29 GMT -5
Non-Denominational to me means they wont stand for anything..Everything goes. Thats just an opinion though. No, that's the Undenominations...... Not to me because non means they are non committed to anything. Like I said, Its only my opinion and not gospel )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 22:39:20 GMT -5
No, that's the Undenominations...... Not to me because non means they are non committed to anything. Like I said, Its only my opinion and not gospel ) And that's the ungospel truth!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 22:40:42 GMT -5
Clearday wrote Can you provide other sources who define the word "sect" in this manner? No. Here's one: "one of a party in religion which has separated itself from established church, or which holds tenets different from those of the prevailing denomination in a state." This indicates exclusivity. Read more: www.brainyquote.com/words/se/sectarian217233.html#ixzz1EqOIclC0
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2011 22:54:24 GMT -5
wiki "In Christianity, non-denominational institutions or churches are those not formally aligned with an established denomination." gotquestions "The simplest answer is that a non-denominational church is any church which is not part of a larger denomination." Most non-denom churches do have names. I've never heard of a church besides 2x2 that doesn't have a name (correction ... that doesn't use their government registered name). Doesn't mean there isn't one though. Curious...have any here encountered any other church that doesn't use a name? For a fact the Plymouth Brethren do not have a name. That sounds silly right? But they don't; the term came from outsiders. 'Lutheran' also started as a derogatory name. Luther himself had some kind of simple descriptive term for the movement he founded. Quakers at first thought of themselves as the restoration of the true church. I believe they prefer the term 'Friends'. I believe the Churches of Christ don't think of themselves as a unique denomination but describe themselves in simple Biblical terms.
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Post by StAnne on Feb 23, 2011 22:54:47 GMT -5
But "non-denominational" literally means "not-named," which is a big point with the F&W fellowship . . . It just hit me...for the literal meaning... French non=no de = of nom - name
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will
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Post by will on Feb 23, 2011 23:15:55 GMT -5
But "non-denominational" literally means "not-named," which is a big point with the F&W fellowship . . . It just hit me...for the literal meaning... French non=no de = of nom - name Perhaps, but I bet in France they call themselves La Vérité. Oui ou non? So, do the F&W have a name? Sure they do! Why do we all pretend they don't? Everyone on this board knows the name they use for their way!!! Why do we say there is no name? Because we have heard workers over and over and over say there is no name and we parrot it back. But, clearly, "The Truth" is used as a moniker. C'est vrai.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 23, 2011 23:35:52 GMT -5
I dont see separating and "holding different tenets" to mean a group is exclusive. To me "Exclusive" means the group believes they are God's only true way. Yes, sects generally separate from another body and they hold differing beliefs from that body they came out of - they start small and those that grow larger and organize may become denominations. But IMO they are not necessarily exclusive (using my definition of excl).
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Post by StAnne on Feb 23, 2011 23:36:38 GMT -5
It just hit me...for the literal meaning... French non=no de = of nom - name Perhaps, but I bet in France they call themselves La Vérité. Oui ou non? So, do the F&W have a name? Sure they do! Why do we all pretend they don't? Everyone on this board knows the name they use for their way!!! Why do we say there is no name? Because we have heard workers over and over and over say there is no name and we parrot it back. But, clearly, "The Truth" is used as a moniker. C'est vrai. Oui. C'est vrai. ( my HS French teacher was great!! very interesting. very strict. "silence dans la classe!, she would say. and there was silence.)
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 23, 2011 23:41:03 GMT -5
IN FRANCE...they are called: Les Anonymes (Anonymous) Les Sans-Nom (Without Name) Disciples du Christ (Disciples of Christ) Amis (Friends), Deux-à-Deux (Two by Twos) Here's a French website: www.workersect.org/2x205af.html
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will
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Post by will on Feb 24, 2011 0:09:12 GMT -5
IN FRANCE...they are called: Les Anonymes (Anonymous) Les Sans-Nom (Without Name) Disciples du Christ (Disciples of Christ) Amis (Friends), Deux-à-Deux (Two by Twos) Here's a French website: www.workersect.org/2x205af.htmlI've been in meeting in France. Wonder if the American I was with simply translated The Truth on their own rather than used the colloquial. Possible. Ironic calling the group "Les San-Nom" that's kinda oxymoronic, actually. Our name is no-name?
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Post by StAnne on Feb 24, 2011 0:10:21 GMT -5
IN FRANCE...they are called: Les Anonymes (Anonymous) Les Sans-Nom (Without Name) Disciples du Christ (Disciples of Christ) Amis (Friends), Deux-à-Deux (Two by Twos) Here's a French website: www.workersect.org/2x205af.htmlNow that's fun. I can even read it fairly well. Since it's somewhat familiar history and pretty predictible that helps trememdously as it's been a few years since I had HS French, three years of it, but still...a looong time ago.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 24, 2011 1:03:23 GMT -5
Maybe a way to define non-denominational is to look at denomination.
Wiki says "A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity".
This fits the 2x2s. It has a name, structure and doctrine.
The workers group is a denomination. It is not nondenominational. It is a group. You have to profess to join. When a person professes they are professing into the group. It is a definable group.
Someone mentioned the brethern.
Wiki says: The Plymouth Brethren is a conservative, Evangelical Christian movement, whose history can be traced to Dublin, Ireland, in the late 1820s.[1][2] Although the group is notable for not taking any official "church name" to itself, nor having an official clergy or liturgy, the title, "The Brethren," is one that many of their number are comfortable with, in that the Bible designates all believers as "brethren.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 24, 2011 3:37:44 GMT -5
Maybe a way to define non-denominational is to look at denomination. Wiki says "A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity". This fits the 2x2s. It has a name, structure and doctrine. The workers group is a denomination. It is not nondenominational. It is a group. You have to profess to join. When a person professes they are professing into the group. It is a definable group. Someone mentioned the brethern. Wiki says: The Plymouth Brethren is a conservative, Evangelical Christian movement, whose history can be traced to Dublin, Ireland, in the late 1820s.[1][2] Although the group is notable for not taking any official "church name" to itself, nor having an official clergy or liturgy, the title, "The Brethren," is one that many of their number are comfortable with, in that the Bible designates all believers as "brethren This makes sense.
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Post by JO on Feb 24, 2011 5:01:23 GMT -5
So, do the F&W have a name? Sure they do! Why do we all pretend they don't? Everyone on this board knows the name they use for their way!!! Why do we say there is no name? Because we have heard workers over and over and over say there is no name and we parrot it back. But, clearly, "The Truth" is used as a moniker. C'est vrai. No name, undenominational, no founder, no organisation, from the shores of Galilee etc were true statements in the early days. The problem is that the rhetoric continued long after the situation it described ceased to be. Today, people who in reality espouse no name, undenominational, no founder, no organisation, from the shores of Galilee, etc would be considered "outsiders" who need to join the workers' one-true-way organisation in order to be saved.
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