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Post by apple on Dec 6, 2010 14:17:05 GMT -5
The Exclusive Brethren and the 2x2s are similar in ways.I've found that they seem to keep a close eye on 2x2s and in the past have had experiences with the brethren smiling at me in public, a group of them pointing at the length of my hair one day when my hair elastic broke and my hair tumbled out and with a Brethren man who actually cornered me on a quiet street to ask me if I went to meetings and got quite pushy when I could name all areas that had meetings in a certain city.I also know 2x2s who went to see other 2x2s in New Zealand and were invited to enjoy a private beach owned by some Brethren folks on the agreement that they did not wear swiming suits (sounds like the 2 groups rub along nicely in New Zealand).I also know a worker who on going to hospital was delighted to discover she would be sharing a room with a Brethren woman.
I wonder how many 2x2s have had similar experiences with the Brethren?
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 6, 2010 18:31:28 GMT -5
I've lived in four (4) American states in my lifetime: Texas, Oklahoma, California and Mississippi, for at least a decade in each state plus more in some, and I have never met anyone who was an "Exclusive Brethren" in my life, and have no idea what they believe. What is the official name of their church?
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Post by Christopher J. on Dec 6, 2010 19:33:32 GMT -5
In all my life in USA, I have never personally encountered any of the Exclusive Brethren. Some folks in New Mexico mentioned encountering someone there who sounded very much like that group, but I did not meet them personally. I heard there was a community of Exclusive Brethren in a small town in Nebraska near one area where I worked, but again, I never encountered them.
One of the first converts to our faith in Peru had previously belonged to a Brethren group, but I met him 20 years after the fact, so I didn't meet any of his former group, nor did he seem to care to talk about his experiences there.
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Post by selah on Dec 6, 2010 21:11:43 GMT -5
We have a "Brethren" group in our city...or at least we did. I haven't communicated with any for years now, but there was one man who used to attend our small group study. He was kind of "exploring." He told us a little about the group. Communion is for their group only. Women on one side, men on the other. Ladies wear dresses, no makeup and buns.
I also know two women who were raised Brethren, but have left. One burst into tears when I told her I had a similar background. She is an outcast to her family, and is constantly badgered by one relative to repent. She married outside of her faith, which was definitely frowned upon....well, in fact, she could not remain in the church because of that.
And, that's about all I know about that..
Blessings, Linda
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Post by apple on Dec 7, 2010 13:10:36 GMT -5
I've lived in four (4) American states in my lifetime: Texas, Oklahoma, California and Mississippi, for at least a decade in each state plus more in some, and I have never met anyone who was an "Exclusive Brethren" in my life, and have no idea what they believe. What is the official name of their church? They began around the same time as the meetings, in Plymouth, England and so are called Plymouth Brethren (some say they began in Dublin, Ireland).There are 2 main groups- exculsive and non-exclusive, I believe the split occurred in the 1960's.I don't know any non-exclusives so I can't say what they believe but I do know a few exclusives. The exclusives have meetings in windowless gospel halls, the men do not wear ties and wear patternless shirts in blue & white, the women wear their hair down, untrimed and with a bandanna, and only wear skirts, no jewelry or makeup.At their meetings women do not preach and I have heard that they do go to meetings every evening.They do not eat with outsiders or in restaurants, do not read newspapers and do not have a TV, radio, internet or mobiles.Their women do not work and they do not let their people go to university.Their preachers are unpaid and untrained.Most Exclusive Brethren men seem to work in Brethren business although I know one who does not- but then he is quite isolated from other Brethren folks.Those who leave the group or break a rule are completely shunned.They believe in a once saved always saved doctrine.They don't vote but this has not stopped them funding politicians in Australia.They drink and it is said that one of the leaders is an alcoholic.They tend to have private schools. They dress similar to 2x2s; denim skirts, long hair, no makeup, no jewelry.Their meetings, their distance from the world and their preaching system are similar too.I think their doctrine is different though and they don't have conventions or any meetings open to outsiders. An E.B. site: www.theexclusivebrethren.com/And ex E.B. group: peebs.net/And ex E.B. group: www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=19864203538&v=app_2373072738 And ex E.B. group: www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=5658649590 An ex E.B. forum: simplegathering.com/index.php?sid=fa760faf49b323172a45a9a1d6ff3627More info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_BrethrenArticle on an E.B. school: www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/education-no-sex-please-were-brethren-1115145.htmlPhotos of E.B.s: www.flickr.com/photos/43665811@N04/4268841593/www.flickr.com/photos/43665811@N04/4268841305/www.flickr.com/photos/luqi/31307035/www.flickr.com/photos/reportdigitalcouk/3293068971/resources3.news.com.au/images/2010/01/12/1225818/248187-brethren.jpgstatic2.stuff.co.nz/1233108507/580/164580.jpg
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Post by apple on Dec 7, 2010 14:20:33 GMT -5
I also know two women who were raised Brethren, but have left. One burst into tears when I told her I had a similar background. She is an outcast to her family, and is constantly badgered by one relative to repent. She married outside of her faith, which was definitely frowned upon....well, in fact, she could not remain in the church because of that. Blessings, Linda Sounds familar doesn't it? I feel for that woman, it's even harder for an E.B. to leave than for a 2x2 to leave.She must have been very brave to leave.
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Dec 8, 2010 5:36:14 GMT -5
I've recently come across an old school aquaintance who I've not seen for over 30 years. He was raised Catholic, but was saved through an Evangelical church in the early eighties. He went into the ministry and pastored a church for a while, and then in the late eighties he moved over to the bretheren assemblies. He is a full time 'worker' for the bretheren (they call their preachers workers too, and it seems the 2x2's copied the bretheren in this as the bretheren started in the early 1800's as opposed to the late 1800's for the 2x2's)
He tells me that the early founders of the bretheren group would be dismayed if they thought they had created another denomination. They originally started out as a group of believers from various denominations who wished to get back to a more first century style of worship rather than the institutional mainstream church which was prevalent. They started meeting in a building in Plymouth and refused to take any name; when asked who they were they replied "We are just a group of bretheren who meet together". As they met in Plymouth they became known as 'The Plymouth Bretheren'.
My friend tells me that there are two groups now calling themselves 'bretheren', the 'exclusive bretheren' and the 'open bretheren'. I am informed that the exclusive group are by far the smaller of the two groups. The position that the open bretheren take is that they believe that anyone who has become convicted of their own sinful nature before God and has called on the Lord Jesus to cleanse them of their sin, and are trusting in Him alone as their means of being made right with God, and are displaying evidence in their lives of this change of perspective, this personal renewal, is saved.
They adhere (for the most part) to teachings that have been dropped by other denominations for example: The wearing of headcoverings for women, and women being silent in the church, but would not break fellowship with other sincere, re-born, believers over such matters.
They also believe in the plurality of Elders, and for the most part do not have pastors. The 'workers' travel widely and preach, and the elders travel around other local assemblies preaching at each others place of worship.
I have begun to attend on occasion, a local bretheren assembly and occasionally their bible study meeting, and have found myself to be much impressed and influenced by them. The simple faith of not so simple people is extremely encouraging, and makes a refreshing change in a world of increasing theological debate and complexity.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 8, 2010 10:16:22 GMT -5
So they are what Dr. Jaenen would call a "Restorationist Movement."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2010 11:40:59 GMT -5
A big mistake is made if one considers William Irvine's desire to get back to the beginning in an isolated or unique way. Throughout the 19th century this was a commonplace theme, with many seeking to get back to the original church methods according to their own understanding, just like Irvine and his peers.
That Irvine's "vision" was close to the end of the 19th century is indicative he was influenced by those who had gone before him/them, rather than he being a leader in this field.
His desires and goals were not as "different" as we have hitherto believed. Interestingly, many of these restoration pioneers came from the UK, most particularly Scotland.
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Post by apple on Dec 8, 2010 13:52:18 GMT -5
it seems the 2x2's copied the bretheren in this as the bretheren started in the early 1800's as opposed to the late 1800's for the 2x2's I think so too.Since the Reformation there has been many groups like the Anabaptists, Pietists, Shakers, Methodists, Plymouth Brethren and Quakers who returned to living like the first Christians and most of them adopted practises that W.Irvine came up with- small meetings in homes, adult baptism, dressing plainly, a non-conformity with the world, al capella singing, abstaining from various activities such as gambling & dancing and untrained & unpaid lay preachers. Methodists would not let a woman take communion if she was dressed in lace and jewelry, Shaker women were considered equal in their own right to men and could run communities, Quaker women could be preachers and were also considered equal to men, all Amish except the Beachy Amish worship in members' homes and have no church building, the River Brethren, Old Order German Baptist Brethren and Old German Baptist Brethren baptise by immersion in rivers and lakes.Old Order German Baptist Brethren and Old German Baptist Brethren sometimes have meetings in tents and their men and women sit seperately during meetings (Two by Twos used to do this).All Anabaptists groups (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, Bruderhof) do not permit wedding rings (once a Two by Two rule, kept now by only the men).Anabaptists and Anabaptist-Pietist groups are expected to marry within their group.Plymouth Brethren, Quaker, Anabaptist, Pietist and Anabaptist-Pietist preachers are untrained and unpaid.The Plymouth Brethren have meetings with the bread and wine in the centre of the room and workers.Two by Twos believe all of these things, their beliefs are not unique: Anabaptists Anabaptists... are Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe, and their direct descendents, particularly the Amish, Brethren, Hutterites, and Mennonites.Anabaptists rejected conventional Christian practices such as wearing wedding rings, taking oaths, and participating in civil government. They adhered to a literal interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount and Believer's baptism. ...Anabaptists required that candidates be able to make their own confessions of faith and so refused baptism to infants. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism River Brethren The three groups of Old Order River Brethren were very similar in most respects in 1987. Meetings for worship were traditionally held in the homes of the members. This practice continued, but meetinghouses and public buildings were also used for church services. The ministry was unsalaried and preachers received no formal training. A bishop, two ministers, and one or two deacons were the traditional body of ordained men for each congregation. The English language has been used exclusively in Old Order River Brethren services since about the 1940s. In the 1980s few members could speak Pennsylvania German. Singing is from small books without musical notation (Spiritual Hymns, originally used by the Brethren in Christ from 1874 to 1902; a revised version was published by the "Strickler" group in 1980). Traditional slow tunes designated by meters were usually used. The experience or testimony meeting was an integral part of every worship service. There was no Sunday School. The two-day love feast observance of communion is practiced which includes feetwashing. Baptism was by trine immersion. Very conservative plain clothing (dress) has been a distinctive of the Old Order River Brethren. All brethren wear full beards, sometimes with a mustache. Opaque white headcoverings were peculiar to the sisters. Children did not wear the traditional garb until conversion. In the "Old" church the use of horse-drawn vehicles was maintained. The Musser group permitted car ownership in 1951 and the Strickler group in 1954. Electricity and telephones was accepted in all the groups for many years, but television was forbidden. www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/O5466.html German Baptist Brethren Old German Baptist Brethren (OGBB) descend from a pietist movement in Schwarzenau, Germany, in 1708, when Alexander Mack founded a fellowship with seven other believers. They are one of several Brethren groups that trace themselves to that original founding body. These emerged from the German Reformed and Lutheran Churches, and are historically known as German Baptists rather than English Baptists. Other names by which they are sometimes identified are Dunkers, Dunkards, Tunkers, and Täufer, all relating to their practice of baptism by immersion. They are part of the post-reformation Anabaptists (which include, among others, the Amish and Mennonites), who rejected baptism of infants as a biblically valid form of baptism..... The form of worship is fairly consistent from church to church, with acappella singing, kneeling in prayer, sermons by congregationally-elected ministers.. and provision for divided seating with women and men assembled on opposite sides of the meetinghouse. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_German_Baptist_Brethren Dunkard Brethren A believer is immersed three times, once in the name of the Father, once in the name of the Son, and once in the name of the Holy Spirit. Some of the Dunkard Brethren exhibit the plainness of dress associated with the "Old Order" Brethren and Mennonites.The Dunkers regard nonconformity to the world as an important principle, following closely scripture teaching and observing the primitive simplicity of the church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkard_BrethrenAmish Amish church membership begins with baptism, usually between the ages of 16 and 25. It is a requirement for marriage, and once a person has affiliated with the church, she or he may only marry within the faith. Church districts average between 20 and 40 families, and worship services are held every other Sunday in a member's home.Amish church groups seek to maintain a degree of separation from the non-Amish world. There is generally a heavy emphasis on church and family relationships. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmishMennonites The Mennonites are a group of Christian Anabaptist denominations based on the teachings and tradition of Menno Simons...Their core beliefs, deriving from Anabaptist traditions are:
1. Baptism of believers understood as threefold: Baptism by the spirit (internal change of heart), Baptism by water (public demonstration of witness), and baptism by blood (martyrdom and asceticism). 2. Church discipline understood as threefold : Confession of Sins, Absolution of Sin, and Re-admission of Sinner in the church. 3. The Lord's Supper as Memorial, shared by baptised believers within the discipline of the church. www.wordiq.com/definition/MennonitePlymouth Brethren Many Protestant denominations claim adherence to the New Testament doctrine of the "priesthood of all believers" (1 Peter 2:9,10) to varying extents. The Plymouth Brethren embrace the most extensive form of that idea: there is no ordained or unordained person or group employed to function as (a) minister(s) or pastor(s)... As a practical matter, many "Open" assemblies have come to embrace the need to financially compensate an individual who has made preaching and teaching his full-time occupation, and these people are sometimes salaried. Such an individual may be termed a "full-time worker".. Some women may also be full-time workers, but their efforts are often limited to these mentioned areas or to supporting roles..
A distinctive practice of the Brethren is a separate weekly Communion meeting, referred to as the "Breaking of Bread," or "The Lord's Supper."..
* The "Remembrance Service" is usually held each Sunday morning (though some assemblies hold it Sunday evening). * Where a meeting hall allows for the adjustment of furniture, the table bearing the communion "emblems" (bread and wine or grape juice) will sometimes be placed in the centre of the room. Chairs may be arranged around the table in four radiating sections, all facing the table, although this is not a recognised standard. # Either at the beginning, or toward the end of the "Remembrance Service" meeting, a prayer is said in reference to the bread concerning its portrayal as "the body of Christ," perhaps by an individual so appointed.. # Generally a loaf of leavened bread is used as an emblem of Christ's body. After giving thanks for the loaf, it will be broken and circulated to the quiet, seated congregation. Congregants will break off small pieces as it is passed, and eat it individually.. # As with common Christian practice, wine has been traditionally used at Brethren Remembrance Services as the emblem of Christ's blood.. The emblem of the blood will be served after the bread has been circulated to the congregation and after it has been prayed over. The wine is used as an emblem of Christ's blood. # The bread and wine are seen as memorial symbols of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_BrethrenIrvine did not come up with anything new; he just copied those before him and the Faith Mission group.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2010 14:56:47 GMT -5
Ah so, William Irvine was not a Scotsman, he was Chinese ?
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Post by apple on Dec 8, 2010 15:41:28 GMT -5
Ah so, William Irvine was not a Scotsman, he was Chinese ?[/quote hah?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2010 17:01:45 GMT -5
The modern Chinese have a reputation for copying things as opposed to inventiveness, like the Japenese a few decades ago.
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Post by open mind on Dec 8, 2010 20:42:14 GMT -5
once a Two by Two rule, kept now by only the men Who says? Men in the 2x2 way here wear wedding rings
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Post by apple on Dec 9, 2010 14:47:57 GMT -5
once a Two by Two rule, kept now by only the men Who says? Men in the 2x2 way here wear wedding rings um.. no.. I don't know a single 2x2 man with a wedding ring.
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Post by Gene on Dec 9, 2010 20:52:12 GMT -5
um.. no.. I don't know a single 2x2 man with a wedding ring. Well of course not. They're all married.
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Post by open mind on Dec 9, 2010 21:08:37 GMT -5
Who says? Men in the 2x2 way here wear wedding rings um.. no.. I don't know a single 2x2 man with a wedding ring. I wear one, nearly every male that I know who is married and professing has one...no rules againt it here
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Post by emy on Dec 9, 2010 21:47:23 GMT -5
um.. no.. I don't know a single 2x2 man with a wedding ring. I wear one, nearly every male that I know who is married and professing has one...no rules againt it here Same here in Upper Midwest USA.
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Post by apple on Dec 10, 2010 6:27:19 GMT -5
Professing men with wedding rings!! I have never ever met a professing man with a wedding ring.
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Post by fred on Dec 10, 2010 19:02:34 GMT -5
Professing men with wedding rings!! I have never ever met a professing man with a wedding ring. Oh well apple, your really ought to get out a bit more. Preached against still in the 80's, men's wedding rings are now commonplace among the f&w. Still, some cynics insist that the man's ring ought to be worn in the nose, if you get my drift. ;D
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Post by apple on Dec 11, 2010 14:17:47 GMT -5
Professing men with wedding rings!! I have never ever met a professing man with a wedding ring. Oh well apple, your really ought to get out a bit more. Preached against still in the 80's, men's wedding rings are now commonplace among the f&w. Still, some cynics insist that the man's ring ought to be worn in the nose, if you get my drift. ;D Not where I am.Don't know any married professing man with a wedding ring.
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Post by freedomatlast on Dec 21, 2010 16:24:22 GMT -5
Anyone wanting to find out more about the Brethren can track down and read a book called BREAKOUT, by David Tchappat. It is highly recommended. My husband and I read it just last week. Would love to know what others think of it. isbn 9781741108163 It's under the biography category.
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Post by apple on Dec 21, 2010 17:55:09 GMT -5
Anyone wanting to find out more about the Brethren can track down and read a book called BREAKOUT, by David Tchappat. It is highly recommended. My husband and I read it just last week. Would love to know what others think of it. isbn 9781741108163 It's under the biography category. I'm unable to get to the library with the bad weather.Could you give me a brief synopis of the book?
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Claire
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Post by Claire on Dec 22, 2010 2:12:36 GMT -5
Oh well apple, your really ought to get out a bit more. Preached against still in the 80's, men's wedding rings are now commonplace among the f&w. Still, some cynics insist that the man's ring ought to be worn in the nose, if you get my drift. ;D Not where I am.Don't know any married professing man with a wedding ring. I'm backing Apple on this one. At least until I left, wedding rings on men in Ireland would get the old air-sucked-through-teeth reaction. I'm not surprised it hasn't changed much in the last umpty-teen years.
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Claire
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Post by Claire on Dec 22, 2010 2:22:03 GMT -5
Brethren are quite common in Northern Ireland -- but then there are many other exotics as well. That strange little corner of a country that holds so much religion, so many churches and so much tension. I went to school with two girls from the Open gathering - in fact our year was quite "rich" in exotics ... 3 of us were 2x2, 2 Open Brethren, 2 Independent Methodist and a couple of Free Presbyterians if I remember correctly. Nearly put the plain old Church of Ireland, Methodist and Presbyterian girls into a minority No Reformed Presbyterian, though - didn't meet them until I went to Belfast. I also went to QUB with a Brethren guy so I guess he was Open ... seeing it was not only higher education but also computing.
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Post by freedomatlast on Dec 22, 2010 16:15:22 GMT -5
Anyone wanting to find out more about the Brethren can track down and read a book called BREAKOUT, by David Tchappat. It is highly recommended. My husband and I read it just last week. Would love to know what others think of it. isbn 9781741108163 It's under the biography category. I'm unable to get to the library with the bad weather.Could you give me a brief synopis of the book? sure apple, here is blurb on the back on the book. David Tchappat tells a spellbinding true story of escape from the Exclusive Brthren where his every waking hour was controlled by the church. His struggle to forge a new life outside makes for fascinating reading-Former EB member
Imagine a life with no TV, no music and no freedom, imagine every minute of your spare time attending shurch, imagine growing up believing swimming pools, cinemas and dancing are evil.
For members of the exclusive Brethren, a strict religious sect, constraints such as these are normal. No member is allowed to eat in the same room as a 'worldy' person, they are forbidden from owning a pet and they are restricted from socialising with anyone outside the EB. But not all members can live in such a controlled existence. Once David Tchappat had a taste of the real world as a teenager, there was no going back-despite the fact he knew he would be ostracised from his family, friends and the only life he had ever known. Breakout is the story of David's regimented upbringing and his battle to see through the brainwashing and condemnation to escape to the outside world. See if you can track it from an online book store etc. Hope the bad weather breaks, we've got the other problem: to little rain. Have a great day. Freedomatlast
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 18:32:31 GMT -5
um.. no.. I don't know a single 2x2 man with a wedding ring. Well of course not. They're all married. ;D
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Post by eyedeetentee on Dec 22, 2010 22:50:11 GMT -5
Apple, you might want to state that your 'facts' are taken from your side of the world. Your information on 'all' Amish and 'all' Mennonites is incorrect . . . in this part of the world. But what do I know? This area isn't 99% Amish like your 99% Catholic area so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. But if you would like some factual information, get on a plane or boat, go to the US, and take a leisurely drive through the country side. The Amish and Mennonites are plentiful - you just have to know where to look. You might learn a thing or three.
If your reference to Methodists is current, it is also incorrect.
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