|
Post by sharonw on Nov 22, 2010 8:05:27 GMT -5
Irvine, is the fact that some of the workers preach that only through workers can anyone be saved evident in places you've visited? I guess I'm wondering how prevalent such an issue becomes part of the gospel mission....I have heard it but more likely to those already professing and maybe towards the end of a mission.....being that the workers do not wish to proclaim such a thing to new outsiders?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Nov 22, 2010 9:05:36 GMT -5
rational -what did the recording say when you called it? Did either of the 2 workers identify themselves? It was a generic message generated by the carrier.
|
|
|
Post by apple on Dec 1, 2010 10:31:21 GMT -5
Never heard workers calling themselves apostles. Still sounds like a hoax to me! A worker told me he was an apostle recently.I couldn't help but laugh until I realised he was serious.Talk about deluded.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 1, 2010 10:35:59 GMT -5
A worker told me he was an apostle recently.I couldn't help but laugh until I realised he was serious.Talk about deluded. ~~ The word apostle means sent one= preacher of the gospel.Which then would pertain to every pastor/preacher/missionary/priest/holy-roller-on-the-corner. Just as long as they are preaching the gospel. Scott
|
|
|
Post by apple on Dec 1, 2010 10:39:15 GMT -5
~~ The word apostle means sent one= preacher of the gospel. Which then would pertain to every pastor/preacher/missionary/priest/holy-roller-on-the-corner. Just as long as they are preaching the gospel. Scott Exactly Scott! The workers are not preaching the real gospel, they are teaching a false gospel of salvation by works attained only by joining their group & obeying their rules.They even deny the trinity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2010 11:13:13 GMT -5
The Workers' gospel is simply based upon the sacrifice of the workers, not the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The alleged sacrificial life of the workers saves no one. Nor does in fact the sacrificial life of Jesus. It was Jesus's sacrificial death on the cross that gives us true hope. Yet how much importance is placed upon the sacrificial life of the workers ? It is frightening when you think about it. This way was created by workers, for workers.
Irvine declared to Cooney that he (Irvine) was the poor when Cooney sold his drapery business and asked him to give him the proceeds. The workers have regarded themselves as the world's poor ever since. Their very survival is dependent upon that principle.
Jesus expected good deeds from his disciples to be shown to the real poor in this world. He even gave instructions as to how it should be done. Irvine redirected these instructions towards himself and his peers.
Isn't it strange that a man who vehemently denounced all Christian churches and their various practices with rabid-like madness and promoted an only way in form, did not denounce Freemasonry, an institution which he apparently remained at least nominally connected with for more than 50 years, most of these years being after he founded the Workers' sect?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 1, 2010 23:39:48 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceiful workers, masquerading themselves as the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their work
Got some of those listed on WINGS, and a few more that we read about here on the board.....
|
|
|
Post by reply on Dec 2, 2010 0:14:51 GMT -5
Yes, the workers have created their own curtain - their gospel - and they are in charge of it (how could it be otherwise?).
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 2, 2010 8:37:33 GMT -5
Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceiful workers, masquerading themselves as the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their workGot some of those listed on WINGS, and a few more that we read about here on the board..... ~~Yep! ;D I agree. Let's pray that they and those like them will come to their sense and repent of their sins before they die... After death it will be too late. ALL of us have sins maybe not so terrible like some on WINGS but we still need to repent of our small, medium sins. We are all sinners. I agree Nathan. Although WINGS is about CSA in the truth fellowship, these wolves and false apostles are in all denominations. Whenever they are discovered, it is up to the church members and the church leaders to make sure that they are removed from their position of spiritual leader in order to protect the church. Irregardless of whether they repent or not, once they are exposed as an abuser they need to get the boot out of the work. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. We are seeing situations where there is ample evidence presented to senior workers and how they are ignoring that information and allowing known abusers to continue to preach and live in the homes of unsuspecting families. Those senior workers are now being viewed by many as uncaring and untrustworthy shepherds. Their names are no longer in the 'trusted and respected' category. They may think that what they are doing is right and just for those workers they are covering for, but if another instance happens concerning those workers, then the evidence is there showing that warnings were ignored by the senior workers, and then they too will be held accountable by the authorities. In one current issue, authorities in several areas have been given reports. My understanding is that they are simply waiting for one of several individuals to come forward and actually press charges and then they will act. Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 9:37:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. We are seeing situations where there is ample evidence presented to senior workers and now they are ignoring that information and allowing known abusers to continue to preach and live in the homes of unsuspecting families.
Scott, please tell me that this is no longer the case. I just can't believe that in spite of all the revelations of abuses in recent times that this pattern of response is continuing?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 2, 2010 10:36:08 GMT -5
Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. We are seeing situations where there is ample evidence presented to senior workers and now they are ignoring that information and allowing known abusers to continue to preach and live in the homes of unsuspecting families. Scott, please tell me that this is no longer the case. I just can't believe that in spite of all the revelations of abuses in recent times that this pattern of response is continuing? Yeah.... it's still happening. Just read an account yesterday of an ex-worker from Africa who has sent out an email listing names and issues that he has been aware of. I have already heard verification of parts of his email. The email was sent to both workers and friends and exes. It was posted with another group that I am a part of, so it has already been around the world. One of these days perhaps those who cover-up and condone inappropriate (and illegal) actions will realize that their actions and words are being spread through the church. I don't think that many of the overseers really understand what is happening to them and the view of workers in general. I think that they are seeing the regular support that they have had for years, so they don't realize that those that they most need to reach out to the most are the ones that are losing faith in and respect for the overseers. I am referring to those who are in the 20-50 age group for the most part. These people are internet savvy, and they check the various boards, email each other, talk to the workers they trust, and then simply ignore and marginalize the overseers and workers that they find to be covering abuse and not taking care of the church. Among that age group, guess what else you have? Yep.... you have the parents of the next generation of the church. They are teaching their kids that the workers are not to be trusted. That sounds harsh, but it is true. Sure..... they are learning to trust individual workers that they get to know, but if they don't know them, then not only are they not to be trusted, but they actually are going to be viewed with distrust. Why? Because it is a well known fact that overseers are still covering up for abusers and therefore they HAVE to be treated as not being trustworthy just to be on the safe side. Pretty sad.... Until the overseers clean out their own ranks and show the church that they place the health of the church over the needs of the workers, there is going to be a continuing decline of trust among the friends. Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 10:42:54 GMT -5
Here's a better suggestion Nathan. If an overseer has the uncaring arrogance and stupidity to allow a worker under reasonable suspicion of committing abuses against children or other vulnerable persons, to preach, or visit in his area as a worker, then people in that area should prohibit ALL workers from visiting their homes and should boycott all Gospel missions and meetings until that overseer sees sense, or better still is removed from his position.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 2, 2010 10:51:50 GMT -5
I agree Nathan. Although WINGS is about CSA in the truth fellowship, these wolves and false apostles are in all denominations. Whenever they are discovered, it is up to the church members and the church leaders to make sure that they are removed from their position of spiritual leader in order to protect the church. Irregardless of whether they repent or not, once they are exposed as an abuser they need to get the boot out of the work. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. We are seeing situations where there is ample evidence presented to senior workers and now they are ignoring that information and allowing known abusers to continue to preach and live in the homes of unsuspecting families. Those senior workers are now being viewed by many as uncaring and untrustworthy shepherds. Their names are no longer in the 'trusted and respected' category. They may think that what they are doing is right and just for those workers they are covering for, but if another instance happens concerning those workers, then the evidence is there showing that warnings were ignored by the senior workers, and then they too will be held accountable by the authorities. In one current issue, authorities in several areas have been given reports. My understanding is that they are simply waiting for one of several individuals to come forward and actually press charges and then they will act. Scott ~~ Here is my suggestion for the friends.... If they knew or heard about certain worker is the abuser DO NOT invite him/her to stay in your homes period. Tell them the reasons why so and so is not allow to stay in your home hopefully the senior worker/worker and overseer get the message and do something about it.
I agree again Nathan. (quit saying things that I agree with. People are going to think that I like you or something.....) ;D Actually, to take it a step further.... I would inform the overseer first in regard to who you do not want in your home and the reasons why not. That way they can tell the specific worker that they should stay elsewhere. I don't think that the friends should be put in the position of having to confront these workers on their doorsteps. Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 10:57:07 GMT -5
Scott, many thanks for that. This is very sad. I feel like emptying my guts. I am fast losing any thoughts that God might be in this way. These workers are certainly not behaving in a Godly manner. They have no right to claim they have a love for lost souls when they clearly are not motivated by a love for the vulnerable within their midst. They do not have a right to even bear the title of "hirelings!"
Do we need any further evidence that this way was created by workers, for workers ! It is clearly a self-serving worker set-up.
To think that for years I swallowed hook, line and sinker all their self righteous nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 2, 2010 11:27:00 GMT -5
Scott, many thanks for that. This is very sad. I feel like emptying my guts. I am fast losing any thoughts that God might be in this way. These workers are certainly not behaving in a Godly manner. They have no right to claim they have a love for lost souls when they clearly are not motivated by a love for the vulnerable within their midst. They do not have a right to even bear the title of "hirelings!" Do we need any further evidence that this way was created by workers, for workers ! It is clearly a self-serving worker set-up. To think that for years I swallowed hook, line and sinker all their self righteous nonsense. I am fast losing any thoughts that God might be in this way. These workers are certainly not behaving in a Godly manner.Well.... I haven't lost that belief. I know that God is in the truth fellowship. I do agree that there are some of the workers that do not behave in a 'Godly manner', but there are many, many more that do. It is unfortunate that some of those that are senior workers are in the category I mentioned. Here is something for those who are professing to think about: Of all the workers that you have heard leave the work in the last 5 years, how many of them were workers with a really good message and showed a real love for the church?With only a few exceptions, when my professing friends hears about a worker that has quit being a worker they have felt bad as it was someone that they felt had a really good message to share in gospel meetings and conventions, and one that was much loved by the friends. "OH NO.... there goes another one of the good ones....." It might be interesting to think long and hard as to WHY these younger workers feel the need to leave the ranks of workers.... Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 11:46:05 GMT -5
You underscore my point admirably Scott !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2010 12:11:24 GMT -5
Scott, I'm not disagreeing with you as to this being a valid procedure, but readers do need to be aware that this very thing is what started off the whole firestorm in Alberta.....ie one family who banned a certain worker from their home. Perhaps a few more Alberta firestorms are valuable, but a lot of people got hurt out of it.
I think if someone is going to try that, they would be smart to seek some support from like minded friends in the area first before any worker-banning. Perhaps a meeting elder or two would help. Overseers do indeed look at the politics of a situation, and if they see that someone has considerable support in the church, they will be much more careful to weigh up the pros and cons of whether or not they will support their first loyalty priority.....their staff.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Dec 2, 2010 12:49:29 GMT -5
It doesn't say much for a church that bases membership on who you allow into your own home to eat your food, sleep in your beds and place a moral and financial burden on you now does it? Who would want to support an overseer that excommunicated members because they refused to have someone stay in their house? Yeah.... I know that there are overseers out there that would take such action. The sad part is when you look at the past and just how many members no longer attend the church because of the need to coddle an abusive worker or protect the image of the workers. Pretty sad stuff for sure..... Scott
|
|
|
Post by reply on Dec 2, 2010 13:02:50 GMT -5
I think a reaction from a Christian leader would be along this line:
III John:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
But I also think John would have little knowledge or interest in what happens in a Pharisee church. Likely he would be glad of the casting out.
Whereas the workers side of this is as the letter from Dale that clearly indicates the workers love to have the preeminence, even the overseers, and as such they will not receive the truth (ironical, eh?) and cast out their brethren.
|
|
|
Post by irvinegrey on Dec 4, 2010 16:49:03 GMT -5
Sharon since I am aware of the 'Living witness doctrine' I can hear in implied in the sermons but never explicity preached. Of course all of the other distinctives such as the church in the home and the homeless workers going out in twos is farily explicit. Sometimes as I listen to the exegesis I think of the little saying 'wonderful things in the Bible I see, some of the put the by you and by me'!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 17:06:00 GMT -5
Never heard workers calling themselves apostles. Still sounds like a hoax to me! Quote: "It could have been in the paper, but that doesn't necessarily mean the workers put it in." Actually it was NOT a hoax but was put in, or at least authorised, by the workers. Subsequent invitations to TG's gospel meetings (in a different area) omitted the "2X2" bit to read "present-day Apostles"
|
|