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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 18, 2010 10:10:30 GMT -5
Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. It's wonderful to know you are right. It brings confidence, peace, thankfulness, satisfaction, it's hard to imagine religion being worthwhile without it.
Of course, it's also the bane of religion. It promotes misunderstanding, fear, even hatred.
In the rural United States, however, the occasional t-shirt that says "Islam is the antichrist" hardly harms anyone. The good of exclusivism outweighs the bad. Why? Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian.
The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too small. A little fish in a big pond...strife can hardly be avoided. It needs to open its arms, for its own well-being, to a larger group. Embrace Christianity as a whole, or republicans or caucasians or heterosexuals, or something.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 18, 2010 10:56:01 GMT -5
Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. It's wonderful to know you are right. It brings confidence, peace, thankfulness, satisfaction, it's hard to imagine religion being worthwhile without it. Of course, it's also the bane of religion. It promotes misunderstanding, fear, even hatred. In the rural United States, however, the occasional t-shirt that says "Islam is the antichrist" hardly harms anyone. The good of exclusivism outweighs the bad. Why? Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian. The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too small. A little fish in a big pond...strife can hardly be avoided. It needs to open its arms, for its own well-being, to a larger group. Embrace Christianity as a whole, or republicans or caucasians or heterosexuals, or something. Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too smallI'm assuming you mean denominations within religions? Or are you saying that the f&w's are a religion all to themselves? Christianity IS exclusive to Christians Buddhism IS exclusive to Buddhists etc.... However, Christian denominations are not exclusive in the sense that they are the 'only Christians'. If a group claims that, I think that it would fall into the definition of a cult or some such thing..... Ha! All funnin' aside, a Christian is a Christian. It doesn't matter if the church you go to for worship has 5 members or 5 million members. Being a Christian isn't about your relationship with the church, it is about your relaionship with Jesus/God. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more that standing in a garage makes you a car...... Scott
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Post by ts on Oct 18, 2010 12:13:04 GMT -5
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more that standing in a garage makes you a car...... "
You have just been standing in the wrong garages. So many people go from garage to garage trying to become cars but they do not get satisfaction. Many people THINK they are satisfied but they are not. They just go sporting around ACTING like cars. They are just going on fumes. If you come to my garage, you really will be a car. As long as you STAY in my garage you will not only be a car but you will see many other cars there all shined up and full of gas. So many cars lose valuation and begin spreading rumors among themselves and they question the dealers and the dealership. They end up leaving the garage and taking others with them and they all lose their registration. They just weren't willing to pay the sticker price.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 18, 2010 13:47:16 GMT -5
Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. It's wonderful to know you are right. It brings confidence, peace, thankfulness, satisfaction, it's hard to imagine religion being worthwhile without it. Of course, it's also the bane of religion. It promotes misunderstanding, fear, even hatred. In the rural United States, however, the occasional t-shirt that says "Islam is the antichrist" hardly harms anyone. The good of exclusivism outweighs the bad. Why? Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian. The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too small. A little fish in a big pond...strife can hardly be avoided. It needs to open its arms, for its own well-being, to a larger group. Embrace Christianity as a whole, or republicans or caucasians or heterosexuals, or something. Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too smallI'm assuming you mean denominations within religions? Or are you saying that the f&w's are a religion all to themselves? Christianity IS exclusive to Christians Buddhism IS exclusive to Buddhists etc.... However, Christian denominations are not exclusive in the sense that they are the 'only Christians'. If a group claims that, I think that it would fall into the definition of a cult or some such thing..... Ha! All funnin' aside, a Christian is a Christian. It doesn't matter if the church you go to for worship has 5 members or 5 million members. Being a Christian isn't about your relationship with the church, it is about your relaionship with Jesus/God. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more that standing in a garage makes you a car...... Scott Scott, in general, I don't think f&w's consider themselves a denomination of Christianity. We can stand off as impartial observers and see f&w's as a Christian offshoot, just as we can see Christianity as a first-century offshoot of Judaism, but it's not long in a new offshoot before the original identity is rejected and the name itself causes members to bristle. F&w's in general don't want to be called Christians, because it identifies them with all the false religions under the title Christian. So I guess for simplicity, I'm calling a 'religion' any group that believes they, alone, have the answer. Like Christians or f&w's.
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Post by emy on Oct 18, 2010 13:58:16 GMT -5
You really believe this for your present position, don't you?
(Yes, I know it was part of your clever analogy, but the question stands.)
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Post by ts on Oct 18, 2010 14:05:09 GMT -5
You really believe this for your present position, don't you? (Yes, I know it was part of your clever analogy, but the question stands.) Yes, I do believe it. That is why I put the phrase, "full of gas" in there. ;D
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Post by ts on Oct 18, 2010 14:25:36 GMT -5
But since you asked. I can tell you what I believe.
When we realize that we are not really cars and get rid of the airbags who are telling us we are exclusive cars...:-D .... We will find that there are a lot of Christians outside of meetings who have deep love for Jesus and show forth His Spirit in every way. These people would never be a part of meeting or agree with the doctrine. It is easy for most folks to see through the exclusivity and it raises red flags for them. I have been ministered to by many caring people. Through their help, I have gained a testimony of God's care because they were acting on what God put in their hearts. I will share that testimony with anyone. The people who are the most reluctant to hear that testimony is the friends and workers. They do not believe that anything that happened "out there" was anything more than just good works from good men. They will not recognize God's work being done and souls being saved "out there". If they do recognize it, they will not proclaim it from the mountain tops because they will get excommunicated.
Emy, you seem to think that I am trying to start a religion and that mine is the only right way. If I am mistaken, please clarify what you were alluding to.
All I have is my testimony. If I said that my testimony was not true, then I would be a liar like unto...someone who is lying. If I do not share my testimony, what good is it? If you do not believe my testimony, I cannot help that. I do wish you would, though. It isn't dangerous to believe that the F&W is not the only imperfect Christian fellowship. I know the workers preach the dangers of other fellowships and even call them all "false religions." I strongly disagree with that. Most of the friends do too. They just aren't free to say so openly without punishment.
Do you think I have a heretical doctrine?
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Post by JO on Oct 18, 2010 14:53:54 GMT -5
Many F&W seem to think that you can only serve God within the context of a one-true-way.
For folks to be a child of God outside of our fellowship means that another group is the one-true-way instead of ours.
So to suggest this is a direct attack on the one-true-way of the F&W.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 15:27:37 GMT -5
Many F&W seem to think that you can only serve God within the context of a one-true-way. For folks to be a child of God outside of our fellowship means that another group is the one-true-way instead of ours. So to suggest this is a direct attack on the one-true-way of the F&W. Weird, but true.
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Post by JO on Oct 18, 2010 15:45:37 GMT -5
The one-true-way has become the object of our worship, and anyone who questions it is not clear, not willing, teaching false doctrine, anti-worker etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 16:08:45 GMT -5
The headline of this thread really says it: Exclusiveness can be a BENEFIT and a bane; both. we need to find the balance! those that find the right balance will be the most happy and satisfied. folks can use exclusiveness for benefit ,but in doing so, it can become a "bane". so, striking the right balance is really the best thing to shoot for. do i want or NEED to know that what I believe in and trust is is good and right? Of course! no one wants to put their trust in something that is NOT good for them or right, do they? so, knowing that you have found the BEST way to fellowship and/or worship is maybe good to keep one's faith strong and ongoing....yes?
but the the "BANE" is really the BURDEN that comes with being exclusive. (not all burdens being bad things; some burdens are worth the weight). but the BURDEN of worrying about whether or not we are "the only one's saved".... is a burden that we need not take on nor preach to others. the best way to "preach" or to share with others is NOT in telling them how superior or "exclusive" we are, but in our living testimony and our willingness to just love as Christ loves...which is unselfish...
Is God an exclusive God? Yes, I think so...even though He created the earth and everything....He desired a People who would be His People: God has always desired that! He made man in His image. so i think it is fair to say that we have an innate drive for exclusivity to some degree. isn't this why husbands and wives decide to get married? they have come to the conclusion that they want to be together and with none other. so they take vows to that effect. Well, ,we are the "bride of Christ" and it is similar. i guess the question is whether or not we can recognize if one can become a bride of Christ outside of going to meetings? ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 16:13:33 GMT -5
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more that standing in a garage makes you a car...... " You have just been standing in the wrong garages. So many people go from garage to garage trying to become cars but they do not get satisfaction. Many people THINK they are satisfied but they are not. They just go sporting around ACTING like cars. They are just going on fumes. If you come to my garage, you really will be a car. As long as you STAY in my garage you will not only be a car but you will see many other cars there all shined up and full of gas. So many cars lose valuation and begin spreading rumors among themselves and they question the dealers and the dealership. They end up leaving the garage and taking others with them and they all lose their registration. They just weren't willing to pay the sticker price. never trust a car dealer... ..
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Post by JO on Oct 18, 2010 16:20:33 GMT -5
He made man in His image. so i think it is fair to say that we have an innate drive for exclusivity to some degree. isn't this why husbands and wives decide to get married? they have come to the conclusion that they want to be together and with none other. so they take vows to that effect. Well, ,we are the "bride of Christ" and it is similar. i guess the question is whether or not we can recognize if one can become a bride of Christ outside of going to meetings? ... Exclusivity is in our relationship with Christ - not in the sect we are involved with.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 16:42:32 GMT -5
He made man in His image. so i think it is fair to say that we have an innate drive for exclusivity to some degree. isn't this why husbands and wives decide to get married? they have come to the conclusion that they want to be together and with none other. so they take vows to that effect. Well, ,we are the "bride of Christ" and it is similar. i guess the question is whether or not we can recognize if one can become a bride of Christ outside of going to meetings? ... Exclusivity is in our relationship with Christ - not in the sect we are involved with. yes absolutely..if one is a true Christian, the (exclusive&primary) spiritual relationship is with Christ first and foremost, but also with others in Christ who they are able to worship with in harmony..but transferring that to practical worship gets "tricky"...why else are there so many different churches? because people cannot agree on how to worship/fellowship TOGETHER...do you know how many people there are in the world today who "believe in God" but have not found a church that they feel is "right"...how many "unchurched" believers there are? why is that? it is not necessarily that the do not believe in God, but that they don't agree with how "church" is being done...
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Post by burdenofproof on Oct 18, 2010 17:13:00 GMT -5
Every religion I've been in contact with practices exclusivism. It's wonderful to know you are right. It brings confidence, peace, thankfulness, satisfaction, it's hard to imagine religion being worthwhile without it. Of course, it's also the bane of religion. It promotes misunderstanding, fear, even hatred. In the rural United States, however, the occasional t-shirt that says "Islam is the antichrist" hardly harms anyone. The good of exclusivism outweighs the bad. Why? Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian. The problem with f&w's is not its exclusivism, but that the f&w religion is too small. A little fish in a big pond...strife can hardly be avoided. It needs to open its arms, for its own well-being, to a larger group. Embrace Christianity as a whole, or republicans or caucasians or heterosexuals, or something. Exclusiveness is beneficial if it fortifies our faith or helps us be true. It is a bane if it causes undo worry about other people's salvation or if it causes us to become PROUD, selfish, possessive, or carry strife in our hearts. It is a bane if the focus and the very reason for being exclusive is diverted from Christ to our own selfish place or gain in His Kingdom. I do not believe that anxiety or excess worry about being exclusive is what God wants for us. I do not believe that anxiety or worry about whether or not "we are the only ones" or "oh no, so & so isn't saved, what must I do" is what God intended either...those things are BURDENS that have been created by humans and human thinking and they hamper our peace and they also hinder us from being able to enter in fully to all the joys of the Kingdom! Jesus never, ever intended to place burdens upon us that should not be! In fact the opposite it true...Jesus came to RELIEVE our burdens! So then: why is it we have a tendency to veer toward taking on burdens that should not be burdens? We are weak and we need God's help and His Power to NOT do what we have a tendency and WEAKNESS to do. We MUST rely on the Power of God! Sound simple? Should be simple, but again, we make it more complex that it has to be. The only way I can TRULY rely on God the way that I am supposed to is to somehow decrease in mySELF. I really need divine intervention, so help me God!Exclusiveness/exclusivity is beneficial in helping us to stay on the straight and narrow way. It is a bane if we take it too far in either direction and find ourselves led astray from what it is all about: Jesus and the Love of God and the Love that God intends for us to experience. That Love (agape Love) cannot be selfish, for self-gain, or to stir animosity and strife BETWEEN PEOPLE. That LOVE...is an exclusive Love of sorts...but when HUMAN/fleshly love is mixed in...(well, it is no longer exclusive, is it?)....it is no longer DIVINELY exclusive...BUT becomes a type of HUMAN EXCLUSIVENESS....which is different than what pleases God. So, yes, God desires and exclusivity that is "Jesus only"...NOT human exclusiveness. Two different things. Another way of thinking about exclusiveness as God would intend is: Primary or first. fwiw-bop
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Post by emy on Oct 18, 2010 17:20:36 GMT -5
Amen. And so we leave the judging up to God.
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Post by JO on Oct 18, 2010 17:24:57 GMT -5
...do you know how many people there are in the world today who "believe in God" but have not found a church that they feel is "right"...how many "unchurched" believers there are? why is that? it is not necessarily that the do not believe in God, but that they don't agree with how "church" is being done... I agree, there are many "unchurched" Christians who are wary of man's controlling tendencies. I believe there was a time when workers were good at finding such people and bringing them into a non-sectarian way of worship. Sadly, the workers over time became sectarian themselves.
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Post by burdenofproof on Oct 18, 2010 17:30:12 GMT -5
Amen. And so we leave the judging up to God. Yes, God is THE Judge-the FINAL Judge. But, He lends us His Power to discern for ourselves...what is beneficial and what is a bane. When we are relying on His Power of discernment and not our human/fleshly discernment we have a better grasp on it and can better avoid getting into situations or mind-sets that create burdens and bondage. fwiw-bop
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 17:31:30 GMT -5
I used to go along with the "God is exclusive" idea but I'm more careful with that these days. After all "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son....." This statement is something I firmly believe and is a completely non-exclusive aspect of God. God's love applies to everyone, and his door is open to everyone.....there are no exceptions, no exclusions. As JO says, our relationship with God is exclusive (ie no one else butts in and controls it) and we just have enter into the open door.
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Post by ts on Oct 18, 2010 17:38:23 GMT -5
Amen. And so we leave the judging up to God. so does that mean I can take part in meeting now? Or did an overseer judge me because I do not believe exclusivity?
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Post by burdenofproof on Oct 18, 2010 17:42:47 GMT -5
I used to go along with the "God is exclusive" idea but I'm more careful with that these days. After all "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son....." This statement is something I firmly believe and is a completely non-exclusive aspect of God. God's love applies to everyone, and his door is open to everyone.....there are no exceptions, no exclusions. As JO says, our relationship with God is exclusive (ie no one else butts in and controls it) and we just have enter into the open door. Yes, so true, the ideal is a relationship with God that is so exclusive no one can butt in or interfere or control it. But if we do not commit ourselves to God fully, "things" and people can interfere...not necessarily because we consciously ALLOW it..but because we have perhaps not been vigilant or not fully trusting God and keeping that primary relationship intact and secure. IF that primary relationship is INTACT and SECURE...other things don't creep in to threaten the integrity of our relationship with God. How to keep it intact and secure? Prayer. Godly fellowship. Godly influences. Godly friendships. Time alone with God. And Keep OUT the things that could crowd out God. But one of the biggest things that can crowd out God is our THOUGHTS. We NEED the Mind of Christ. Open door policy? Yes, we are free to choose. God not only observes that and respects it, He created the freedom of choice! fwiw-bop
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Post by burdenofproof on Oct 18, 2010 17:44:06 GMT -5
Amen. And so we leave the judging up to God. so does that mean I can take part in meeting now? Or did an overseer judge me because I do not believe exclusivity? Have you asked your local Elder?
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Post by emy on Oct 18, 2010 20:52:04 GMT -5
Add this to statements I can fully agree with! Missed it the other time around.
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Post by emy on Oct 18, 2010 20:53:45 GMT -5
so does that mean I can take part in meeting now? Or did an overseer judge me because I do not believe exclusivity? Have you asked your local Elder? Pretty much what I was thinking, along with why did you ask the overseer? Is it validation you need?
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Post by JO on Oct 18, 2010 21:09:38 GMT -5
Have you asked your local Elder? Pretty much what I was thinking, along with why did you ask the overseer? Is it validation you need? Does the following post clear this up? I was asked at a recent convention by an overseer my views on the doctrine of the workers being the only source of the gospel and the meetings being the only place where saved people are(or eventually will be if saved people exist "out there"). I flatly said that I and my wife flatly said that we do not believe that the workers are the only source of truth and salvation and that the friends and workers are not the only ones saved and that there are save ones out there who would never agree to some of the doctrines that the workers hold to and would never "profess". Consequently, we were asked to not take part and told that we would need to go to gospel meeting and reprofess. I know what the workers believe and what they talk about behind closed doors concerning their faith. I know what the effort is in gospel meetings: To get the "outsider" to profess and come to meetings. If he doesn't do so, he is unwilling for salvation in his day of opportunity. I was told by the overseer that I could be with the friends as long as I didn't speak false doctrine to them.
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Post by emy on Oct 18, 2010 21:20:52 GMT -5
Pretty much what I was thinking, along with why did you ask the overseer? Is it validation you need? Does the following post clear this up? I was asked at a recent convention by an overseer my views on the doctrine of the workers being the only source of the gospel and the meetings being the only place where saved people are(or eventually will be if saved people exist "out there"). I flatly said that I and my wife flatly said that we do not believe that the workers are the only source of truth and salvation and that the friends and workers are not the only ones saved and that there are save ones out there who would never agree to some of the doctrines that the workers hold to and would never "profess". Consequently, we were asked to not take part and told that we would need to go to gospel meeting and reprofess. I know what the workers believe and what they talk about behind closed doors concerning their faith. I know what the effort is in gospel meetings: To get the "outsider" to profess and come to meetings. If he doesn't do so, he is unwilling for salvation in his day of opportunity. I was told by the overseer that I could be with the friends as long as I didn't speak false doctrine to them. Not really. Unless the discussion was not prompted by TS.
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Post by ts on Oct 18, 2010 21:23:06 GMT -5
Thanks JO. I only wish I had flatly fixed that flatly worded sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 21:27:09 GMT -5
Have you asked your local Elder? Pretty much what I was thinking, along with why did you ask the overseer? Is it validation you need? We all know what happened in Alberta when elders let in people who had been kicked out elsewhere.
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