Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on Sept 13, 2010 0:24:38 GMT -5
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Post by anderson on Sept 18, 2010 14:26:50 GMT -5
Can a worker be sacked?
As I understand it they are "called" by Almighty God, Our Father. He, and He alone should do the sacking when needed. If it depended on Him, of course.
If it were up to me there are a few that I would send on their way, asap!
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Post by anderson on Sept 18, 2010 14:30:13 GMT -5
As for idioms, "paid up" is a joke in the context of supposedly "freely we have received etc." Ironic.
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on Oct 4, 2010 14:14:08 GMT -5
Are the "misdemeanours" part of the good authority or simply the "no longer part of"
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on Oct 5, 2010 5:27:40 GMT -5
If it was just clerical bungling he'd have been demoted to civvies but he's out altogether. I have no news, no information, only opinion - that my limited experience of TG would lead me to believe he goes for daisy-cutter solutions ... regardless of the enormity or forgive-ability of a 'crime'.
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Post by apple on Oct 31, 2010 14:09:31 GMT -5
Hi,
I joined here a long time ago but never bothered posting.
However I will post now.Nearly a year ago I had a conversation with the worker in question about the meetings.I pointed out one or two things I did not agree with and to my surprise he agreed with me.I found him to be a pleasant man who at Monaghan convention 2009 went to a nearby home that had lost a family member to pass on his sorrow for them.He would be the only worker I would bother with. The rest are liars who spread a false gospel and teach the arianist heresy.
But what is this about N studying the Koran?
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Post by hope on Oct 31, 2010 19:49:04 GMT -5
agreed nice post apple. yes I've talked to him about the koran, he's read it a few times. People will only listen as much as you are willing to listen and engage with them, therefore it helps to know what they believe. can you imagine a muslim trying to convert you with no prior knowledge, understanding or opinion on the bible? Worker in Question has a brilliant mind, and uses this gifting to engage and reach people that otherwise would remain unreached.
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Irish2
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by Irish2 on Nov 1, 2010 15:44:42 GMT -5
downright shocked to hear that about WinQ, disgusting! Where will it ever end?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2010 17:12:49 GMT -5
So far we have the WIQ portrayed as a pleasant man, with a brilliant mind, a reader of the Koran, spiritually beautiful, something the fellowship needed, a healing influence, a do darer in the jungle, encouraging friendly, unafraid to ask hard questions, unafraid of being wrong, not an upholder of tradition, an acquirer of cures for tonsillitis, agreeing with things, disagreeing with things, a maverick, imperfect, an unhappy bunny, an incoherent speaker, lacking in scripture, distinctly off message, persona non grata, suffering from ill health, inclined to fluctuations, intolerant of authority, causing no end of trouble, touched by madness, certifiably insane and a sexual assaulter of Peruvian men.
Now, I have no idea what the WIQ has or hasn’t done (or with whom), but if there ever was a worker with whom one should relish tea and cucumber sandwiches then surely it is him? Over the years I’ve had to endure countless sermons by the dull and the not quite dead, whether within the confines of a curious circuslike tent or in a hired hall with a creaking floor and a leaking roof, most of whom were remarkably uninteresting by comparison. Dear God, it was less a case of people not laughing at their jokes as them being completely devoid of even a hint of a sense of humour; less a case of them lacking in coherent thought and scriptural references as them being completely incapable of saying anything remotely rousing or inspiring. May I helpfully suggest that if public reaction to one’s preaching is the barometer by which one’s future in the work is determined, then may God help them all; and that includes Tommie Gamble, that old master of the mockery attracting sermon! Matt10
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Irish2
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by Irish2 on Nov 1, 2010 17:29:17 GMT -5
Irish2, how can you be sure what you have heard is true? Maybe we should start asking for the evidence, the witnesses etc? So far all we have is a gossip/whispering campaign that is a far cry from the way Jesus said we should deal with offences. Perhaps if we did adhere to Jesus' teaching in this we'd find WinQ isn't so guilty after all? Judge, jury and execution by unsupported accusations, whispers, hearsay and gossip isn't the way Jesus planned it as far as I can tell. You're right, and I'd hope it is just gossip, but I've now heard this from 3 different sources...
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Post by hope on Nov 2, 2010 0:01:04 GMT -5
eurgh... If you are familiar with my posts you'll know I'm not normally a strongly worded poster. I believe in grace not karma and giving people space to grow along the pilgrimage home....that said..
alot of the stuff written on this thread this makes me actually feel physically ill and reminds me why I left Ireland, all the gossiping, biting, whispers of a small community.
There is a great power in our words, just as God created the universe with His words, so also in our mouths are life and death. (proverbs 18:21) I rarely (in my time in the meetings) remember words of life being spoken over people, rarely saw anyone recognising and calling out the giftings and talents of another given by God. doing so has the power to launch someone into their God given destiny.
But I do remember the slander of loveless and gracelessness of people hurting eachother by stirring and discord sowing - there is DEFINITELY an attitude of stirring in the posts that have negatively commented on him, however flippant and uninvolved they may appear in tone.
I've seen members of my own family both innocent and guilty leave or be excommunicated because of being victims of this kind of behaviour. This biting and back stabbing until the victim is destroyed and broken.
"But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another."
Whose character do you reflect the God of Love or prowling lion wanting to devour and destroy? light or darkness? love or hate? restoration or destruction? balm or poison? check out John 8:44
before you "open your mouths" to attack or gossip consider the end that you are going for? what is your goal in all of this? what good will come out of it?
what if it is all gossip and you are slandering this man for nothing.. or perhaps those that are slandering him are doing so because of personal offense, jumping on the bandwagon of his "firing", waiting in the sidelines ready to pounce and kick him when he is down. If he has indeed harmed you, because we are all careless, thoughtless, hurtful at times - and if he has I'm not justifying his behaviour but if thats so, then for your own sake forgive him for whatever he has done to you personally because until you do you are the one that is thrown into your own prison of sorts - forgiveness sets you free. and its a choice not a feeling. (matt 18) the freedom comes to the forgiver whether than person who hurt them deserves to be forgiven or not, because you are renouncing your right to judge and placing the judgement of the harmer into the hands of God.
If you destroy him, destroy his character will you then be satisfied? will it make you feel better, feel justified? will you then be able to brush the dust of your dusty stone baring hands and walk away content? I doubt it. Retaliation never brings peace to your spirit and mind.
I believe in transparency, repentance, forgiveness when there has been sin. I also believe in restoration - just as King David amongst others was restored. God is a God of redeeming and second chances, of growing and learning, of restoration.
All these "chinese whispers" are not the kingdom way of dealing with things. These words that are used as weapons to kill (for to hate is to murder according to Jesus) are not the work of the Father - they do NOT reflect His character..
I don't believe in brushing things under the carpet and not dealing with them, but a lot of this is speculation and rumors. I for one, looking at the entire context of my experience with him will not believe the rumors/slander until he confesses it from his own mouth. and will happily put my real name to that too. there is a danger in our "internet" names in that we can say what we like and not (seem to) be held responsible for it.
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10
There are some beautiful and uplifting comments on this thread.
But overall the scathing stirring of verbal poison on this thread makes it incredibly sad to read.
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Post by blankets on Nov 2, 2010 12:55:39 GMT -5
Apple said: "He would be the only worker I would bother with. The rest are liars who spread a false gospel and teach the arianist heresy." Generalise much? Judge much? Slander much? Hope said: "What if it is all gossip and you are slandering this man for nothing.. or perhaps those that are slandering him are doing so because of personal offense, jumping on the bandwagon of his "firing", waiting in the sidelines ready to pounce and kick him when he is down. If he has indeed harmed you, because we are all careless, thoughtless, hurtful at times - and if he has I'm not justifying his behaviour but if thats so, then for your own sake forgive him for whatever he has done to you personally because until you do you are the one that is thrown into your own prison of sorts - forgiveness sets you free. and its a choice not a feeling. (matt 18) the freedom comes to the forgiver whether than person who hurt them deserves to be forgiven or not, because you are renouncing your right to judge and placing the judgement of the harmer into the hands of God. " I've been reading on here for quite a while, and although there are quite a lot of things I don't agree with you on, I have to agree with you here. Well said, on this one. Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", or words to that effect. Why don't we keep it that way? blankets
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Post by someguy on Nov 5, 2010 11:25:04 GMT -5
I've been reading on here for quite a while, and although there are quite a lot of things I don't agree with you on, I have to agree with you here. Well said, on this one. Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", or words to that effect. Why don't we keep it that way? blankets Though I agree I wonder why workers would do that. This totally fits their M.O. It's not as though when a divorced couple gets married they leave them alone and alone them to fully participate. It's not as though someone gets a TV or has a drink and they don't cast stones. The truth is, this reaction to WIQ is exactly what i would expect from older brothers. I am not saying it is right but it is exactly what I expect. If it didn't happen I would wonder why not. They treat people in meetings horribly all the time casting stones so why stop when its one of their own?
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Post by apple on Nov 5, 2010 11:47:09 GMT -5
agreed nice post apple. yes I've talked to him about the koran, he's read it a few times. People will only listen as much as you are willing to listen and engage with them, therefore it helps to know what they believe. can you imagine a muslim trying to convert you with no prior knowledge, understanding or opinion on the bible? Worker in Question has a brilliant mind, and uses this gifting to engage and reach people that otherwise would remain unreached. I do remember him talking about the Koran and Muslims alright..
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Post by apple on Nov 5, 2010 11:49:38 GMT -5
Apple said: "He would be the only worker I would bother with. The rest are liars who spread a false gospel and teach the arianist heresy." Generalise much? Judge much? Slander much? I've been reading on here for quite a while, and although there are quite a lot of things I don't agree with you on, I have to agree with you here. Well said, on this one. Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", or words to that effect. Why don't we keep it that way? blankets Back off blanket. I'm being truthful.The workers LIE about the origins of the group, they LIE when they say they are the "only, true" group and they LIE when they claim to be poor and homeless.
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Post by someguy on Nov 5, 2010 13:22:01 GMT -5
Back off blanket. I'm being truthful.The workers LIE about the origins of the group, they LIE when they say they are the "only, true" group and they LIE when they claim to be poor and homeless. Have to disagree with you there...that is, if you are speaking about the same workers as I am. Irish ones? Or, I should say...granting you your experience, as I don't know what you have or haven't heard...but I haven't heard workers lie or tell heresies or speak a false gospel. And I'm well aware of the many claims of being a cult etc etc that are made about our fellowship...but I believe in my HEART that it is not a cult, that the friends and workers are for the most part, doing their best, and are sincere. That's why, when somebody comes along and makes sweeping generalisations like that, that it irritates me, being honest. Give a true example of something one worker has said that is a lie, a heresy, a proof that it's a false gospel, fine. But don't paint them all with the same brush and not even give the slightest bit of evidence. All in the spirit of healthy discussion... blankets Believing something in your heart doesn't make it so. I don't like using the word cult to describe the F&W but I will say it has markings of one. The inability to question authority without being labeled or marginalized is one example of cult like behaviour. As to workers lying...what does it matter to you? You obviously support the system and won't believe it anyway? Apple talked of their experience and you deny it. Giving an example means nothing to someone like you. If you were interested in the truth you should first acknowledge that apple should be given the benefit of the doubt. Rejecting what apple stated is as pious as me rejecting everything a worker says as a lie. Having listened to friends from Ireland and listened to Irish workers I have no doubt that there is ridiculousness preached as righteousness. All in the love of legalism.
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Post by blankets on Nov 5, 2010 13:59:02 GMT -5
I should say... granting you your experience, as I don't know what you have or haven't heard...but I haven't heard workers lie or tell heresies or speak a false gospel. blankets "If you were interested in the truth you should first acknowledge that apple should be given the benefit of the doubt. Rejecting what apple stated is as pious as me rejecting everything a worker says as a lie." Tell me what I did here, if not acknowledge that he/she should be given the benefit of the doubt?? Please read my posts properly before you launch yet another attack on me. Thanks blankets
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2010 4:40:06 GMT -5
Have to disagree with you there...that is, if you are speaking about the same workers as I am. Irish ones? ......but I haven't heard workers lie or tell heresies or speak a false gospel. Blankets, I listened to Irish workers twice a week for thirty years. The same workers as you. In the same places as you. And, given the laws of probability, likely sometimes even at the same time as you. You know their names: Tommie Gamble, Jack Duncan, Bertie Anderson, Walter Milligan, John Johnston, Craig Fulton, Edgar Lowe, Willie Pollock, Hugh Breen, Norman Nash and what seemed like an awful lot of people called Jennings for some reason. And Noel Tanner of course. They all taught exactly the same version of so called truth (whether directly, indirectly or ignorantly) with varying degrees of ineptitude and their fundamental message was: 1. If you don’t start to profess you will go to hell 2. If you stop professing you will go to hell 3. Ours is the only church not stated by a man and therefore the only true church 4. All other churches are false churches and if you go to them you will go to hell 5. We are poor and homeless like Jesus and God’s only true servants. 6. All other preachers are false preachers who are going to hell. 7. All other Christians are false Christians who are going to hell 8. If you date a false Christian you are acting contrary to the will of God and we will therefore excommunicate you 9. If you have television in your house you are acting contrary to the will of god and we will therefore excommunicate you 10. Woman who wear make up or trousers or cut their hair are acting contrary to the will of God 11. The Secret Sect book is full of lies 12. We do not know anything about William Irvine Total claptrap. All of it. And if you believe otherwise it is only because you have been brainwashed to believe so. Most likely from birth. Like I was. Matt10
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Post by apple on Nov 7, 2010 12:58:36 GMT -5
Back off blanket. I'm being truthful.The workers LIE about the origins of the group, they LIE when they say they are the "only, true" group and they LIE when they claim to be poor and homeless. Have to disagree with you there...that is, if you are speaking about the same workers as I am. Irish ones? Or, I should say...granting you your experience, as I don't know what you have or haven't heard...but I haven't heard workers lie or tell heresies or speak a false gospel. And I'm well aware of the many claims of being a cult etc etc that are made about our fellowship...but I believe in my HEART that it is not a cult, that the friends and workers are for the most part, doing their best, and are sincere. That's why, when somebody comes along and makes sweeping generalisations like that, that it irritates me, being honest. Give a true example of something one worker has said that is a lie, a heresy, a proof that it's a false gospel, fine. But don't paint them all with the same brush and not even give the slightest bit of evidence. All in the spirit of healthy discussion... blankets Both you and I hear the evidence at every meeting, mission and convention. We all know that the meetings really began just over 100 yrs ago by William Irvine and yet the workers stand up and preach lies about how the meetings began and lies about the founder. Some workers even preach differing tales on how the meetings started; some admit that Irvine existed but claim that he "found" the "real way" but others claim that the meetings always existed and then some even claim that the meetings existed underground for centuries.They cannot even agree on one origin. And there are the lies about the meetings being the so-called "one, true church". There is no "one, true" church superior to all others and we know this because there is nothing in the bible to back this idea up.This false doctrine encourages an unGodly attitude of smug superiority.Mark 9:38-40 shows us that there is no one true exclusive group of Christians: Mark 9:38-40 38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us[/b].” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. Haven't you looked outside of your own narrow 2x2 world and noticed all the other groups who live just like the 2x2s?The Plymouth Brethren, the Conservative Plain Quakers, the Hutterites, the Amish, the Mennonites, the Dunkard Brethren and the Old German Baptists?Many of these groups have meetings within their homes & in barns, dress plainer & with more modesty than those in the meetings, believe in dress distinction unlike 2x2s who are loosing this, practise adult baptism, have untrained, unpaid ministers and avoid any technology that may hinder their faith.Most of these people live closer to biblical commandments than the majority of 2x2s and yet they are not arrogant enough to assume that they are the only "proper" church.Those born into their churches can leave without hassale from members about them going to hell. And what about that lie about the workers being poor and homeless? They have homes to live in, money and cars to drive- our homes, our cars, our money.We provide for them, the homeless do not have this.When they come to 2x2 homes they get served the best food, they stay as long as they want regardless of their hosts' wishes, they get their laundry done for them, they have a bed to sleep in and they get money.The workers are not poor or homeless.They dress in the best quality suits and get to travel around the world at our expense. They don't work a tap and get everything on a plate and yet there are many people who cannot find work, cannot afford a place of their own and cannot afford a small, cheap car of their own- nevermind trips all around the world to conventions and good quality clothes.You can decide to not believe me but I know for a fact that they workers jet around the world and that they have bank accounts.Read their blogs- they don't mention the gospel, just about their trips and some even blog via an iphone, a luxury item that many cannot afford.A lot of workers have laptops too.Since when do poor people have iphones, foreign holidays and laptops? This worker blogs via iphone, has an apartment with another worker who has a laptop and spends a lot of our money on herself: lurkingplaces.blogspot.com/"Oh, later I did discover Ferrigamo shoes, and bought myself a $300.00 pair, but decided not to take the matching $1000 purse." lurkingplaces.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-favorite-shoes.htmlFerragamo shoes are designer shoes worn by hollywood stars.Do the poor have such money to throw about? Let's be honest, "workers" don't do a tap of work. And when I say that they preach an Arianist heresy that is just what they do.Arianists deny that Jesus existed prior to his life on earth and therefore is inferior to God.This is a denial of the trinity (3 equal parts of God: God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit) and is heresy.Many 2x2s today believe in the trinity or the trinity to a degree, having heard about it from school but the older 2x2s and workers do not believe in it.When questioned a worker will lie and claim to believe in the trinity but then claim that Jesus is lower than God and try to belittle the trinity on the grounds that the actual term is not the in bible.This claim is faulty because the trinity is in the bible, just not the actual term. The term "trinity" was just created to explain it, tri meaning three. The next time you are at the mission or meeting listen carefully to what the workers has to say.Notice that they praise fellow workers' deeds more than they praise Jesus, notice that they quote fellow workers' sayings more than the quote Jesus.Notice in testimonies that people never stand up and give thanks to Jesus; they give thanks to the workers and "the way" (in that they mean the meetings, not Jesus who is the real way).It's a subtle thing but Jesus is sidelined by the workers.When Jesus is sidelined and man is given a higher position than God (Jesus), this is a rejection of God. If you deny the trinity well here is the proof of it: Matthew 28:19 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
1 John 5:6-9 6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Ephesians 4:32 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
2 Corinthians 3 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.I know 2x2s who really do believe that Jesus was an ordinary man chosen by God when he was on earth to show the perfect example of how to live.This is the perfect example of Arianism and the equally false gospel of salvation by works.It's impossible for a human to be good enough.That's why the Jews had to commit sacrifices to atonement for their sins!Jesus being perfect was the ultimate and last sacrifice, on man could be perfect enough.Look even at Abraham.He was asked to sacrifice his own son but that was just a test from God.God could not have accepted anything as blemished as a sinful human for sacrifice!It was a sin to offer up blemished animals in sacrifice, never mind a sinful human. Jude 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.We can't work our way into heaven!This is another of many false doctrines taught by the workers.At conventions we hear people standing up at testimonies and crying about failing and promising to "do better next time".This is not possible, we cannot imitate Jesus.Jesus was not an example to be copied, but our saviour for us to accept into our hearts and obey.These are two very different things.We never hear about repenting our sins and asking Jesus into our hearts at meetings but that's just what the NT says to do if we want to be saved. I know that you do genuinely believe that the workers are sincere and that the meetings are not a cult but take a good hard look around you, there is much that is in the meetings that is cult behaviour: -The workers cannot be questioned.I have questioned various workers and have been reported for doing so or else had the worker in question storm off on me. -The workers are viewed as better than everyone else with a more direct line to God.They get special treatment- at convention meetings & meals they sit seperately, at mealtimes they are served first and with the best of food.Go work in their cookhouse next convention (as I did), it's an eye opener- they enjoy curries, pastas, lasangnes, pies, buns, cakes, ice cream, real coffee, fruit and fruit juices while the rest of us eat stale bread, porridge, bananas, ham, jam and stew with black tea for days.All children are encouraged to address the workers as aunty and uncle and when they preach at convention 2x2s write down what they say in their bibles and quote them in meetings. -The meetings are seen as the only real way to heaven and for the chance to get there one is obliged to hear the workers' version of the gospel from the workers, join and obey all the workers' rules along with biblical rules. -2x2s all speak in a code.They use normal terms which are twiste to mean something else.For an example the term "the truth" is used to mean the meetings, so when someone reads the word "truth" in the bible they automatically associate it with the meetings even when the verse they are reading does not refer to that at all. -Professing 2x2s cannot date outsiders- unless they want a nasty visit from Tommie Gamble. -Attending other churches is not accepted.All other churches are mocked. -Everyone else outside the meetings is believed to be going to hell even if someone lives akin to 2x2s and believe in Jesus. Naturally in your heart you will feel that the meetings are not a cult but you've probably heard the workers' teachings from birth so it can be hard to discover something you have been told your entirely life is in fact a lie.I know it hurts but please do take a good look at scripture and what it really says.You will find yourself surprised. For an example: The workers say they are going out 2x2 and poor like Jesus asked but when we take a good look at scripture we see that this was a temporary command directed at the Jews only.Luke 10 and Mark 6 do talk about Jesus sending out people to spread the gospel.They did indeed go about in pairs surviving on the goodness of others but this was a temporary task which Jesus ended before the Passover and Crucifixion in Luke 22:35-37. Luke 22:35-37 ) 35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."Matt 10:5 tells those who went out not to go near the Gentiles. Approaching the Gentiles with the gospel was not to come until much later. Mark 6:7 and Luke 10:19 show that those that Jesus send out homeless also had authority over the evil spirits and could trample snakes and scorpians.The workers cannot do this.Paul who was Saul, was bit by a snake and lived- and again I have yet to hear a worker survive that either. Read your bible, pray to God to be revealed what is true & what is not, repent your sins and accept Jesus.
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Post by blankets on Nov 7, 2010 13:18:56 GMT -5
Have to disagree with you there...that is, if you are speaking about the same workers as I am. Irish ones? Or, I should say...granting you your experience, as I don't know what you have or haven't heard...but I haven't heard workers lie or tell heresies or speak a false gospel. And I'm well aware of the many claims of being a cult etc etc that are made about our fellowship...but I believe in my HEART that it is not a cult, that the friends and workers are for the most part, doing their best, and are sincere. That's why, when somebody comes along and makes sweeping generalisations like that, that it irritates me, being honest. Give a true example of something one worker has said that is a lie, a heresy, a proof that it's a false gospel, fine. But don't paint them all with the same brush and not even give the slightest bit of evidence. All in the spirit of healthy discussion... blankets Both you and I hear the evidence at every meeting, mission and convention. We all know that the meetings really began just over 100 yrs ago by William Irvine and yet the workers stand up and preach lies about how the meetings began and lies about the founder. Some workers even preach differing tales on how the meetings started; some admit that Irvine existed but claim that he "found" the "real way" but others claim that the meetings always existed and then some even claim that the meetings existed underground for centuries.They cannot even agree on one origin. And there are the lies about the meetings being the so-called "one, true church". There is no "one, true" church superior to all others and we know this because there is nothing in the bible to back this idea up.This false doctrine encourages an unGodly attitude of smug superiority.Mark 9:38-40 shows us that there is no one true exclusive group of Christians: Mark 9:38-40 38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us[/b].” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. Haven't you looked outside of your own narrow 2x2 world and noticed all the other groups who live just like the 2x2s?The Plymouth Brethren, the Conservative Plain Quakers, the Hutterites, the Amish, the Mennonites, the Dunkard Brethren and the Old German Baptists?Many of these groups have meetings within their homes & in barns, dress plainer & with more modesty than those in the meetings, believe in dress distinction unlike 2x2s who are loosing this, practise adult baptism, have untrained, unpaid ministers and avoid any technology that may hinder their faith.Most of these people live closer to biblical commandments than the majority of 2x2s and yet they are not arrogant enough to assume that they are the only "proper" church.Those born into their churches can leave without hassale from members about them going to hell. And what about that lie about the workers being poor and homeless? They have homes to live in, money and cars to drive- our homes, our cars, our money.We provide for them, the homeless do not have this.When they come to 2x2 homes they get served the best food, they stay as long as they want regardless of their hosts' wishes, they get their laundry done for them, they have a bed to sleep in and they get money.The workers are not poor or homeless.They dress in the best quality suits and get to travel around the world at our expense. They don't work a tap and get everything on a plate and yet there are many people who cannot find work, cannot afford a place of their own and cannot afford a small, cheap car of their own- nevermind trips all around the world to conventions and good quality clothes.You can decide to not believe me but I know for a fact that they workers jet around the world and that they have bank accounts.Read their blogs- they don't mention the gospel, just about their trips and some even blog via an iphone, a luxury item that many cannot afford.A lot of workers have laptops too.Since when do poor people have iphones, foreign holidays and laptops? This worker blogs via iphone, has an apartment with another worker who has a laptop and spends a lot of our money on herself: lurkingplaces.blogspot.com/"Oh, later I did discover Ferrigamo shoes, and bought myself a $300.00 pair, but decided not to take the matching $1000 purse." lurkingplaces.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-favorite-shoes.htmlFerragamo shoes are designer shoes worn by hollywood stars.Do the poor have such money to throw about? Let's be honest, "workers" don't do a tap of work. And when I say that they preach an Arianist heresy that is just what they do.Arianists deny that Jesus existed prior to his life on earth and therefore is inferior to God.This is a denial of the trinity (3 equal parts of God: God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit) and is heresy.Many 2x2s today believe in the trinity or the trinity to a degree, having heard about it from school but the older 2x2s and workers do not believe in it.When questioned a worker will lie and claim to believe in the trinity but then claim that Jesus is lower than God and try to belittle the trinity on the grounds that the actual term is not the in bible.This claim is faulty because the trinity is in the bible, just not the actual term. The term "trinity" was just created to explain it, tri meaning three. The next time you are at the mission or meeting listen carefully to what the workers has to say.Notice that they praise fellow workers' deeds more than they praise Jesus, notice that they quote fellow workers' sayings more than the quote Jesus.Notice in testimonies that people never stand up and give thanks to Jesus; they give thanks to the workers and "the way" (in that they mean the meetings, not Jesus who is the real way).It's a subtle thing but Jesus is sidelined by the workers.When Jesus is sidelined and man is given a higher position than God (Jesus), this is a rejection of God. If you deny the trinity well here is the proof of it: Matthew 28:19 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
1 John 5:6-9 6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Ephesians 4:32 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
2 Corinthians 3 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.I know 2x2s who really do believe that Jesus was an ordinary man chosen by God when he was on earth to show the perfect example of how to live.This is the perfect example of Arianism and the equally false gospel of salvation by works.It's impossible for a human to be good enough.That's why the Jews had to commit sacrifices to atonement for their sins!Jesus being perfect was the ultimate and last sacrifice, on man could be perfect enough.Look even at Abraham.He was asked to sacrifice his own son but that was just a test from God.God could not have accepted anything as blemished as a sinful human for sacrifice!It was a sin to offer up blemished animals in sacrifice, never mind a sinful human. Jude 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.We can't work our way into heaven!This is another of many false doctrines taught by the workers.At conventions we hear people standing up at testimonies and crying about failing and promising to "do better next time".This is not possible, we cannot imitate Jesus.Jesus was not an example to be copied, but our saviour for us to accept into our hearts and obey.These are two very different things.We never hear about repenting our sins and asking Jesus into our hearts at meetings but that's just what the NT says to do if we want to be saved. I know that you do genuinely believe that the workers are sincere and that the meetings are not a cult but take a good hard look around you, there is much that is in the meetings that is cult behaviour: -The workers cannot be questioned.I have questioned various workers and have been reported for doing so or else had the worker in question storm off on me. -The workers are viewed as better than everyone else with a more direct line to God.They get special treatment- at convention meetings & meals they sit seperately, at mealtimes they are served first and with the best of food.Go work in their cookhouse next convention (as I did), it's an eye opener- they enjoy curries, pastas, lasangnes, pies, buns, cakes, ice cream, real coffee, fruit and fruit juices while the rest of us eat stale bread, porridge, bananas, ham, jam and stew with black tea for days.All children are encouraged to address the workers as aunty and uncle and when they preach at convention 2x2s write down what they say in their bibles and quote them in meetings. -The meetings are seen as the only real way to heaven and for the chance to get there one is obliged to hear the workers' version of the gospel from the workers, join and obey all the workers' rules along with biblical rules. -2x2s all speak in a code.They use normal terms which are twiste to mean something else.For an example the term "the truth" is used to mean the meetings, so when someone reads the word "truth" in the bible they automatically associate it with the meetings even when the verse they are reading does not refer to that at all. -Professing 2x2s cannot date outsiders- unless they want a nasty visit from Tommie Gamble. -Attending other churches is not accepted.All other churches are mocked. -Everyone else outside the meetings is believed to be going to hell even if someone lives akin to 2x2s and believe in Jesus. Naturally in your heart you will feel that the meetings are not a cult but you've probably heard the workers' teachings from birth so it can be hard to discover something you have been told your entirely life is in fact a lie.I know it hurts but please do take a good look at scripture and what it really says.You will find yourself surprised. For an example: The workers say they are going out 2x2 and poor like Jesus asked but when we take a good look at scripture we see that this was a temporary command directed at the Jews only.Luke 10 and Mark 6 do talk about Jesus sending out people to spread the gospel.They did indeed go about in pairs surviving on the goodness of others but this was a temporary task which Jesus ended before the Passover and Crucifixion in Luke 22:35-37. Luke 22:35-37 ) 35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."Matt 10:5 tells those who went out not to go near the Gentiles. Approaching the Gentiles with the gospel was not to come until much later. Mark 6:7 and Luke 10:19 show that those that Jesus send out homeless also had authority over the evil spirits and could trample snakes and scorpians.The workers cannot do this.Paul who was Saul, was bit by a snake and lived- and again I have yet to hear a worker survive that either. Read your bible, pray to God to be revealed what is true & what is not, repent your sins and accept Jesus. Hi again, Apple. (and Matt10) Nice to meet some fellow Irish-men and/or women on here I'm not going to give a big long answer here - have to get to the mission, you know I can see from your message that you really believe what you are saying. Thank you for the encouragement to read my Bible, pray to God to reveal what's true, to repent, and to accept Jesus. I will continue to do so. And I want to encourage you to do the same. I have searched the Bible in regard to what you've mentioned, many many times. I have prayed to God about these things, many times. I have prayed for confirmation that it is His will that I continue on in this fellowship, and He has given that confirmation. He has shown me what is true, and what is not. He has given me a deeper love for Him in the process as I seek Him more now, and seek His guidance more now, then I ever did before. Matt10, you say that I am brainwashed. I can assure you that I'm not. I could go into my experiences and different things I've gone through, but I won't. It's enough for me to know that I have a Father and Saviour who love me, who I know for myself, and to be 100% certain that their will is being done in my life, with His help. And that is all. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe what I believe. But again, I want to encourage you to search the scriptures for yourselves and get His answers, His confirmation. A verse comes to mind as I write about my experience with God...it's in Psalm 118. 23 "This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." with much love, blankets
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Post by apple on Nov 7, 2010 13:24:27 GMT -5
blankets when you repented your sins and sought Jesus, did you have a great joy in your heart?Did you feel as though an invisible burden had been lifted off your back?Did tears of joy run doen your face?Did you want to instantly proclaim the good news to the world there and then?
PS- why are you going out that dreadful weather?
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Post by hope on Nov 7, 2010 23:34:58 GMT -5
this is maybe no on topic... for where the conversation is going now...
but I've been thinking about what he has been accused off and I've concluded that whether the allegations are truth or not I stand by what I said, the allegations or sin doesn't change my experience with WINQ - my experience and how the Father has used him in my life remains regardless. Otherwise we only use people for the good they do for us and abandon them when they fall short of our expectations.
WINQ's guilt or innocence IS of course important in the context of repentance and being restored the Father, but it shouldn't change how we respond to him (not with slander, exaggeration or even just enjoyment of sharing the news etc) If he is infact guilty, but has repented, the churches response should be one of loving and restoring him. When we are weak we need to be strengthened. When we fall we NEED grace... not to "fall from grace" which in my mind is an oxymoron.
Is the good we do in peoples lives negated by the times we fall? No I don't think so... It wasn't so for King David, where he fell into various sins, repented after more than a year later and we still use his books and call him "a man after God's heart". A repentant spirit the Lord doesn't despise and we shouldn't despise either...
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Post by apple on Nov 8, 2010 13:21:02 GMT -5
blankets when you repented your sins and sought Jesus, did you have a great joy in your heart?Did you feel as though an invisible burden had been lifted off your back?Did tears of joy run doen your face?Did you want to instantly proclaim the good news to the world there and then? Yes!! And I often think of a line of the 50th hymn "I am his and his forever, what joy divine"... the joy wasn't just at the start, when I chose to serve Him, it is continual As for instantly proclaiming the good news...I try, but it's something I'm not great at. Glad to read of all the "stammering tongues" etc in the Bible! blankets There is no easy way to say this blankets but you have not been saved.When the holy spirit came down upon the people in Acts 2 it instantly changed them.They immediately rushed out to spread the gospel.Paul who was Saul was changed in an instant when God spoke to him. Joy from the holy spirit comes instantly not over time and not when one is a member of just the meetings.It's a joy that is overwelming.It's a joy that remains even in times of trouble and worry (1 Thessalonians 1:6, 2 Corinthians 8:2, 2 Corinthians 7:4, Hebrews 10:34, James 1:2).Peace also comes instantly, and it too remains in times of trouble (Romans 14:17, Romans 15:13,Romans 14:17,Romans 15:13,Galatians 5:22) and there is a strong desire to tell everyone of the gospel, regardless of previous shyness.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2010 15:13:15 GMT -5
Matt10, you say that I am brainwashed. I can assure you that I'm not. I could go into my experiences and different things I've gone through, but I won't. It's enough for me to know that I have a Father and Saviour who love me, who I know for myself, and to be 100% certain that their will is being done in my life, with His help. And that is all. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe what I believe. blankets Blankets, I didn't say you were brainwashed. I said that if you believed that those twelve so called truths preached by Irish Workers weren't claptrap you were brainwashed. Of course you didn't respond to indicate whether you believed them to be claptrap or not. How very wise. I am not here to batter anyone's faith in the 2x2 God/Way/Truth but remember some of us have stood were you stood, have believed what you believe and have had faith as you have faith. But no longer. I wonder can you explain why? I used to wonder why I believed what I believed when everyone else in my town, school, extended family etc didn't. Was I special? Was I lucky? Was I chosen by God? Of course I know now that the answer is simply brainwashing. Most of us who believe have been indoctrinated into the system since birth. That's why the workers are keen for people to attend as many meetings as possible. That's why the workers are so against religious books and mixing with the world. It's all about keeping control of your mind. That's why we believe the claptrap we believe. Let's face it, what other rational person would believe that only the membership of a peculiar little early twentieth century sect could be saved? It's absurd. Matt10
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Post by emy on Nov 8, 2010 15:47:47 GMT -5
Yes!! And I often think of a line of the 50th hymn "I am his and his forever, what joy divine"... the joy wasn't just at the start, when I chose to serve Him, it is continual As for instantly proclaiming the good news...I try, but it's something I'm not great at. Glad to read of all the "stammering tongues" etc in the Bible! blankets ... They immediately rushed out to spread the gospel.Paul who was Saul was changed in an instant when God spoke to him. ... This is not true of Paul. Acts 9 4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. He didn't instantly recognize Jesus, and his trip to Damascus may have taken a couple more days (not told). 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 11-12 And the Lord said unto him(Ananias), Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 17-19 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
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Post by emy on Nov 8, 2010 15:48:57 GMT -5
this is maybe no on topic... for where the conversation is going now... but I've been thinking about what he has been accused off and I've concluded that whether the allegations are truth or not I stand by what I said, the allegations or sin doesn't change my experience with WINQ - my experience and how the Father has used him in my life remains regardless. Otherwise we only use people for the good they do for us and abandon them when they fall short of our expectations. WINQ's guilt or innocence IS of course important in the context of repentance and being restored the Father, but it shouldn't change how we respond to him (not with slander, exaggeration or even just enjoyment of sharing the news etc) If he is infact guilty, but has repented, the churches response should be one of loving and restoring him. When we are weak we need to be strengthened. When we fall we NEED grace... not to "fall from grace" which in my mind is an oxymoron. Is the good we do in peoples lives negated by the times we fall? No I don't think so... It wasn't so for King David, where he fell into various sins, repented after more than a year later and we still use his books and call him "a man after God's heart". A repentant spirit the Lord doesn't despise and we shouldn't despise either... Excellent attitude. Something for all of us to attain.
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Post by blankets on Nov 8, 2010 16:23:29 GMT -5
Yes!! And I often think of a line of the 50th hymn "I am his and his forever, what joy divine"... the joy wasn't just at the start, when I chose to serve Him, it is continual As for instantly proclaiming the good news...I try, but it's something I'm not great at. Glad to read of all the "stammering tongues" etc in the Bible! blankets There is no easy way to say this blankets but you have not been saved.When the holy spirit came down upon the people in Acts 2 it instantly changed them.They immediately rushed out to spread the gospel.Paul who was Saul was changed in an instant when God spoke to him. Joy from the holy spirit comes instantly not over time and not when one is a member of just the meetings.It's a joy that is overwelming.It's a joy that remains even in times of trouble and worry (1 Thessalonians 1:6, 2 Corinthians 8:2, 2 Corinthians 7:4, Hebrews 10:34, James 1:2).Peace also comes instantly, and it too remains in times of trouble (Romans 14:17, Romans 15:13,Romans 14:17,Romans 15:13,Galatians 5:22) and there is a strong desire to tell everyone of the gospel, regardless of previous shyness. Wooooowww. How does one reply to that? Ok. Number 1: Joy did come instantly. I said the joy IS CONTINUAL...as in, in continues, every day. Not as in, I was a little bit joyful at the beginning, then my joy increased. Number 2: I see you have no reference for the "strong desire to tell everyone of the gospel, regardless of previous shyness"... I don't believe telling the gospel is all about talking, actually. Google "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day." Lots to be learned from that hymn. Number 3: If I were you, I would think and pray very, very carefully before you tell anybody that they are not saved. That is not for ANYBODY to judge. And don't bother telling me that workers do that to others, or whatever. I don't care WHO is doing the judging, it is wrong. The only judge of our salvation is God. No other. Wow. I still cannot believe you actually wrote that. Edit: Perhaps I should have said "the joy is continuOUS", having looked up the difference between continual and continuous. My bad
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Post by apple on Nov 8, 2010 17:31:04 GMT -5
... They immediately rushed out to spread the gospel.Paul who was Saul was changed in an instant when God spoke to him. ... This is not true of Paul. Acts 9 4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. He didn't instantly recognize Jesus, and his trip to Damascus may have taken a couple more days (not told). 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 11-12 And the Lord said unto him(Ananias), Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 17-19 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. I never said that Paul got the Holy Spirit in an instant.I said he was changed in an instant.He's travelling along a road and suddenly falls down, sees God (he mentions it later in the gospel), hears God and is blinded.It happened so quickly, not gradually as blankets says joy was for him/her.
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