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Post by sojourningthrulife on Feb 28, 2009 14:47:24 GMT -5
I am responding to the comments above about "separating a child from one or more of his/her parents has no idea about the heart of God. They are prepared to damage children....."
Exactly ! That is why "divorce and remarriage" has some terrible ongoing / continuing effects... particularly on the children and on the church (fellow believers)....
I have listened to the weeping of one woman because her parents divorced and the father remarried. His new wife refused to let him be a father to his children from his first marriage and this woman was his daughter. She has continued to weep and it has been over 30 years. I have listened to her; would you take my place for one hour ?
Yes, folks, divorce and remarriage is devastating maybe not to all children, but to those who have been affected negatively it is indeed most devastating.
And, what many of you have failed to recognize, is that IF that first marriage in the original post had worked for reconciliation (as the scripture admonishes), instead of heading off for a new mate, then the second marriage would not be in jeopardy (drifting sand).
Yes, divorce and remarriage affects the precious children very frequently in a most negative way. I can hardly think of anything more devastating to children than their parents divorcing and remarrying. God designed children to have two parents, not four. Four is man's numbering; not the Lords.
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Post by Gene on Feb 28, 2009 22:24:05 GMT -5
MmmmmHmmmmm
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 1, 2009 14:11:20 GMT -5
I have opened up a website to attract interest in my research. It is, www.irvinegrey.com. Please visit the site and I would appreciate any information or suggestions you can forward.
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Post by fred on Mar 2, 2009 5:22:05 GMT -5
STL, I don't believe that there is a soul on these boards who would disagree that divorce brings pain and suffering to many involved - but probably more accurate to say that the causative factors are what bring the pain and suffering.
Because of the hardness of man's heart (and I believe the love of God's heart that he doesn't wish to see this pain and suffering continue), God made provision for divorce for he hated man's practice of "putting away".
Now if you wish to learn more on the specifics of this law you will be able to research it for yourself and you will see that this law continues into the NT.
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Post by emy on Mar 2, 2009 21:22:28 GMT -5
Godmade provision for divorce?? My Bible says that Moses did.
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Post by fred on Mar 3, 2009 4:40:28 GMT -5
Well, Emy, I guess that sort of depends on how you view the OT. Would it be more correct to say God directed or God sanctioned Moses' teaching.
It would seem that Jesus supported this teaching whilst affirming what was in God's heart for man concerning marriage.
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Post by emy on Mar 3, 2009 18:25:43 GMT -5
Matt. 19:3 One day the Pharisees were badgering him: "Is it legal for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?" 4-6 He answered, "Haven't you read in your Bible that the Creator originally made man and woman for each other, male and female? And because of this, a man leaves father and mother and is firmly bonded to his wife, becoming one flesh—no longer two bodies but one. Because God created this organic union of the two sexes, no one should desecrate his art by cutting them apart." 7 They shot back in rebuttal, "If that's so, why did Moses give instructions for divorce papers and divorce procedures?" 8-9 Jesus said, "Moses provided for divorce as a concession to your hard heartedness, but it is not part of God's original plan. I'm holding you to the original plan, and holding you liable for adultery if you divorce your faithful wife and then marry someone else. I make an exception in cases where the spouse has committed adultery."
10 Jesus' disciples objected, "If those are the terms of marriage, we're stuck. Why get married?"
********* 3 Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question: “Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife for just any reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’ 5 And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ 6 Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”
7 “Then why did Moses say in the law that a man could give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away?” they asked.
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. 9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.”
10 Jesus’ disciples then said to him, “If this is the case, it is better not to marry!”
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Post by fred on Mar 3, 2009 19:23:47 GMT -5
Thanks emy, could you tell us what versions you are quoting?
When the Pharisees asked that question of Jesus they thought they would trap him because there two different schools of teaching among the Pharisees at that time. One taught that divorce for any reason was acceptable, while the other school held to the OT (Moses) law.
Jesus indicated firstly God's intention for marriage but then went on to support the OT teaching.
This is precisely what my posts have been pointing to.
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Post by someguy on Mar 4, 2009 19:44:41 GMT -5
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. 9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.” my only question to people who love to quote this is, did God intend us to do many of the things we do? People murder, did God intend that. People fornicate, did God intend that? However, thanks be to God there is provision for our failings called grace. If we can be gracious to a murderer or a fornicator or thief and give them a second chance, can we not be gracious to a divorcee? Oh, I know what people say, we are being gracious, they just have to remain single all their lives. To me, this is such a revolting, ungracious response to a human error I wonder how people can even remotely feel this is righteous. The grace of God is giving someone a second chance. We let a murderer back out in society. This is an example of grace. To let a divorced person to marry is the same example of grace. To never allow them to remarry is unbelievably self-righteous. We in all our sin are given second, third, fourth, fifth chances, yet we can't even give them another. hmmmm
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Post by emy on Mar 4, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
Fred, one is from The Message (translated from original languages, but phrase by phrase rather than word by word) and the other is from the New Living Translation, which several of my friends use.
Someguy, I didn't write these verses:
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife ... and shall marry another, committeth adultery
1Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, ....
Would you agree that one should repent of sin to be forgiven? How does one repent from ongoing adultery?
On the other hand, I am aware that there are some people who are D&R that have every evidence of possessing the Holy Spirit. And I live in a region where that is acknowledged.
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Post by someguy on Mar 4, 2009 21:36:48 GMT -5
Someguy, I didn't write these verses: Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife ... and shall marry another, committeth adultery1Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, .... Would you agree that one should repent of sin to be forgiven? How does one repent from ongoing adultery? On the other hand, I am aware that there are some people who are D&R that have every evidence of possessing the Holy Spirit. And I live in a region where that is acknowledged. Emy, I am not questioning who wrote them, only the interpretation thereof. I wonder if you would come to a different understanding if you read those verses in Greek, especially Matt 5:32 as it is the only time in the New Testament where the word for put away is translated into committeth adultery. All other occurrences are translated to put away. There is a difference between putting away and divorce, a big difference and if you don't understand the law nor the custom of the times I understand how one could interpret those verses in that fashion. Put away in the bible is like separation. Read about the custom of the times and how men simply put away wives and would take others. Ask yourself if Jesus was trying to correct a wrong behaviour in the Israelites at that time. Of course they were committing adultery. They were still married. They hadn't yet divorced their first wives and here they were taking another. Of course that is incorrect. However, once they are divorced, they are free to marry again. However, like many passages of old books, if we don't read them seeking understanding for the times and customs, we will certainly misinterpret them. That coupled with believing in a cruel God, would certainly make believing in grace to these individuals, certainly more difficult. Understanding what I do, I could never keep someone in bondage to their past. That is not the God I know. Yet, many believe in that kind of God, a harsh, cruel God. Bertrand Russell says it best. Cruel men believe in a cruel God and use their belief to excuse their cruelty. Only kindly men believe in a kindly God, and they would be kindly in any case. Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970)
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Post by fred on Mar 4, 2009 22:10:15 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining better than I, someguy.
Emy, once you understand the difference between 'divorce' and 'putting away' the scripture and the intent of it becomes much clearer. God hates 'putting away' yet he himself is divorced.
Now scripture must be in harmony, and those passages are, till you come to Matt 5:32. And as someguy noted that this is the only place where that Greek word is translated as 'divorce' instead of 'put away'. Most translators consider this an aberration.
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Post by someguy on Mar 5, 2009 1:40:08 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining better than I, someguy. Emy, once you understand the difference between 'divorce' and 'putting away' the scripture and the intent of it becomes much clearer. God hates 'putting away' yet he himself is divorced. Now scripture must be in harmony, and those passages are, till you come to Matt 5:32. And as someguy noted that this is the only place where that Greek word is translated as 'divorce' instead of 'put away'. Most translators consider this an aberration. On the contrary Fred. I thought you did a fantastic job.
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Post by jorroo on Mar 16, 2009 15:25:33 GMT -5
My 2 cents worth: Something thats been bubbling in my heart for a long time now : The harmony of the scriptures , and the danger of picking pieces here , rejecting there , yields many a false doctrine... the bible does not contradict itself it is completely harmonius in its entireity.
Growing up here in South Africa there was a woman in the meetings I used to attend who was divorced (and not remarried), and I can still remember for years and years she had this sad sad countenance as she passed on the emblems during communion (not taking any) ... this is NOT what God wants. (Those communion emblems represent the very thing she needs to hold onto!!)
God wants a repentant heart not legalism, look at King David he was an adulterer and a murderer AND he remained married to the object of those two serious crimes : bathsheba (who was solomons mother - whom the Lord loved! 2Sam12:24) who was part of the line of JESUS! Mat 1:6 interesting my translation reinforces : "of her that had been the wife of Urias". And David is called "A man after Gods own heart" Acts 13:22... God does not approve of divorce that is a true, but divorce is not an unforgivable sin...
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on May 18, 2009 19:37:29 GMT -5
I am responding to the comments above about "separating a child from one or more of his/her parents has no idea about the heart of God. They are prepared to damage children....." Exactly ! That is why "divorce and remarriage" has some terrible ongoing / continuing effects... particularly on the children and on the church (fellow believers).... I have listened to the weeping of one woman because her parents divorced and the father remarried. His new wife refused to let him be a father to his children from his first marriage and this woman was his daughter. She has continued to weep and it has been over 30 years. I have listened to her; would you take my place for one hour ? Yes, folks, divorce and remarriage is devastating maybe not to all children, but to those who have been affected negatively it is indeed most devastating. And, what many of you have failed to recognize, is that IF that first marriage in the original post had worked for reconciliation (as the scripture admonishes), instead of heading off for a new mate, then the second marriage would not be in jeopardy (drifting sand). Yes, divorce and remarriage affects the precious children very frequently in a most negative way. I can hardly think of anything more devastating to children than their parents divorcing and remarrying. God designed children to have two parents, not four. Four is man's numbering; not the Lords. In my case my wife deserted me and our two year old son (one week after his second birthday) and remarried. How could that be reconciled? How was it worse my child for me to remarry and for him to again have a mother (my ex stopped visitation after his 4th b-day and hasn't seen in over 30 years)?
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Post by sojourningthrulife on May 20, 2009 13:55:29 GMT -5
Responding to Terry's Post #42 above: "How was it worse for my child for me to remarry and for him to again have a mother...."?
To say the least, it is sad and not an easy path; however, it may be that having one parent who is honoring the Lord is better than two parents who are not honoring the Lord.
God's grace is sufficient and in abundance supply to those who look to Him for their comfort and consolation rather than seeking to find their comfort outside his pathway.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2009 15:12:21 GMT -5
Responding to Terry's Post #42 above: "How was it worse for my child for me to remarry and for him to again have a mother...."? To say the least, it is sad and not an easy path; however, it may be that having one parent who is honoring the Lord is better than two parents who are not honoring the Lord. God's grace is sufficient and in abundance supply to those who look to Him for their comfort and consolation rather than seeking to find their comfort outside his pathway. STL, do you believe that the fact that Terry remarried is evidence that he is not honoring the Lord, and thus his child was raised by parents who dishonor the Lord?
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Post by sojourningthrulife on May 21, 2009 12:07:35 GMT -5
As I stated in my previous post, having one parent who is honoring the Lord is better, than having two parents who are not honoring the Lord.
Yes, Terry's life is not easy as his wife left him when their child was two. God's grace is given in abundance to those who desire it.
So how many times do you think one can divorce and remarry with the Lord's approval?
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Post by Scott Ross on May 21, 2009 12:36:04 GMT -5
So how many times do you think one can divorce and remarry with the Lord's approval?How many times can a person sin and be covered by God's grace? And, along the same line, how many times can our sins be forgiven by God? Scott
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Post by sojourningthrulife on May 21, 2009 12:42:34 GMT -5
Some people wish to remain in their sin. We are not covered by God's grace if we refuse to be cleansed from our sin. The Lord's message is to "go and sin no more." The Lord does not wish for us to remain in our sin(s).
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Post by Scott Ross on May 21, 2009 12:49:47 GMT -5
Soo... are you now sinless?
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Post by Scott Ross on May 21, 2009 13:23:32 GMT -5
Some people wish to remain in their sin. We are not covered by God's grace if we refuse to be cleansed from our sin. The Lord's message is to "go and sin no more." The Lord does not wish for us to remain in our sin(s). Do you believe that everyone who is divorced and then remarried is going to hell? If so, then there wouldn't be any point to them attending meetings now would there? Do you see any exceptions to the divorce and remarriage issue? Like if someone professes AFTER they have been divorced and remarried is that any different than someone who is professing getting divorced and remarried? Do you see any exceptions to the rule (as you see it) in the bible? Scott
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Post by Gene on May 21, 2009 15:35:02 GMT -5
As I stated in my previous post, having one parent who is honoring the Lord is better, than having two parents who are not honoring the Lord. Yes, Terry's life is not easy as his wife left him when their child was two. God's grace is given in abundance to those who desire it. So how many times do you think one can divorce and remarry with the Lord's approval? You've avoided my direct question, STL, but I understand.
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julio
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by julio on May 21, 2009 19:52:58 GMT -5
"remaining in sin" is out of context.
If you marry when you are still married to another (as in separation or 'put away'), then it's adultery.
If you marry after you are divorced, then the bible tells us we are free to go and marry another.
The only time the original word was misinterpreted was in Matt. 5:32, and the original word is 'put away' or separated. It was correct in the version (Tyndale) just prior to the KJV (according to what I've read). Many newer versions are recognizing this and changing it back to the original. You can go on Bible Gateway and check this out by looking at all the different versions.
God through Moses gave the merciful conditions of a writ of divorcement, because the men were putting away their wives without freeing them legally so they could be cared for and supported by another. Of course, men could have multiple wives, so it was not an issue for them. In just putting them away, they were not given back their dowry, or made available again for marriage to another. This reduced them to living in adultery if they were to 'marry another'.
Jesus came, fulfilling the law, not making a merciful 'law' cruel and unusual punishment to those who have suffered so much already! Jesus teachings focused on how we treat others, and compassion and mercy are the foundation. The very nature of how people are treated in the West in D&R, is contradictory to the life of Jesus.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 22, 2009 7:54:15 GMT -5
Jesus came, fulfilling the law, not making a merciful 'law' cruel and unusual punishment to those who have suffered so much already! Jesus teachings focused on how we treat others, and compassion and mercy are the foundation. The very nature of how people are treated in the West in D&R, is contradictory to the life of Jesus.I am in agreement with what you posed. Scott
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 18:32:50 GMT -5
A child who is given the opportunity to be raised by two loving parents is living in a home which is honouring the Lord.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 18:35:08 GMT -5
You have it quite right julio.
Adultery can only exist when a marriage is in place. When the marriage no longer exists, neither does adultery.
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Jun 4, 2009 13:59:21 GMT -5
I am responding to the comments above about "separating a child from one or more of his/her parents has no idea about the heart of God. They are prepared to damage children....." Exactly ! That is why "divorce and remarriage" has some terrible ongoing / continuing effects... particularly on the children and on the church (fellow believers).... I have listened to the weeping of one woman because her parents divorced and the father remarried. His new wife refused to let him be a father to his children from his first marriage and this woman was his daughter. She has continued to weep and it has been over 30 years. I have listened to her; would you take my place for one hour ? Yes, folks, divorce and remarriage is devastating maybe not to all children, but to those who have been affected negatively it is indeed most devastating. And, what many of you have failed to recognize, is that IF that first marriage in the original post had worked for reconciliation (as the scripture admonishes), instead of heading off for a new mate, then the second marriage would not be in jeopardy (drifting sand). Yes, divorce and remarriage affects the precious children very frequently in a most negative way. I can hardly think of anything more devastating to children than their parents divorcing and remarrying. God designed children to have two parents, not four. Four is man's numbering; not the Lords. So it's better for children to live in a home where the parents fight and there is no love expressed, but they at least profess?
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