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Post by survive on Jan 10, 2009 16:51:21 GMT -5
iI WOULD LOVE COMMENTS NOT OF THOSE ANGRY AND HATEFUL ABOUT MTG BUT MAYBE THOSE WHO GO TO MTG WHY IS IT SO DIFFRENT IN THE SAME FELLOWSHIP? IT BRINGS ME SADNESS THAT THIS IS SO..... NOT WHAT I WAS TAUGHT FROM CHILDHOOD. FULL FELLOWSHIP IN CO AND NON IN CA BECAUSE OF THOSE WHO HAVE ALL THE POWER THE OVERSEER.. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR A ANSWER.
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Post by ronhall on Jan 19, 2009 8:40:53 GMT -5
I have lived on both sides of the country, but view this issue remotely, since I have not been D or R.
My impression is that D & R is not considered appropriate in either part of the country. The difference is how it is handled.
On the west coast the practice is more strictly discouraged with a ban in most cases of taking part in meetings. (I think attendance as a silent participant might be alright.)
East of the Rockies, my impression was that the practice of D & R is also strictly discouraged, but the overseers stop at that point to let the involved couple discipline themselves as guided by the Spirit. Unfortunately this has led to an implied acceptance of the practice in some areas and not in others.
Since I have no involvement in this whatever, I'm just expressing what I've observed.
I would think if you wanted to approach a west coast overseer on the issue, or perhaps any overseer or worker, the best approach would be to ask what you should now do to gain full entry into the fellowship.
It must be remembered that the way is a 'narrow way', but there is no promise that there won't be many twists and turns as the way is traveled. Each person's experience is unique; even the position of overseer would have its own set of twists and turns.
It would be interesting to know how this all turns out, but since it is a very personal matter, I would think most would understand should you decide not to report the results via this forum.
Ron
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jan 20, 2009 4:30:19 GMT -5
Sorry to be thick but what does D & R stand for??
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2009 8:16:58 GMT -5
D&R = divorce & remarriage
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Post by ronhall on Jan 20, 2009 8:36:03 GMT -5
Probably should be further defined to marriage, divorce and re-marriage to a different spouse.
Don't think the stigma is quite so severe for those who re-marry the same spouse.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jan 22, 2009 3:31:17 GMT -5
Ty Cherie.
I felt that I couldnt marry outside meetings my parents would not have accepted that although in later yrs they did with other siblings. After a long unhappy marriage I ended the union. Recently have had comments from family members inside suggesting I reconcile. Which astounds me because they themselves in no way would have tolerated what I put up with.
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Post by wvmountainman on Jan 22, 2009 12:28:49 GMT -5
Reconcile?? I just don't get it with some people. If you were unhappy enough to get a divorce, stay divorced. I would say most people don't change.
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Post by survive on Jan 28, 2009 13:47:19 GMT -5
Depending on where you live workers don't approve of you going back to the first spouse. The rules are all diffrent depending on who the overseer is. From west to East the West does'nt think the East is right to let people take part. What a power trip. I'm done. The bible say's there is only on unforgiveable sin, blasphemy agaisnt the Holy Ghost. The East feels the divorce is the sin and the West believes it is the remarraige. Oh Help me God and guide me and help me not to get bitter. We have a four year old and were told the only chance to be right with God was to break up our family. That is not the Jesus I follow.
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Post by Gene on Jan 28, 2009 13:55:57 GMT -5
We have a four year old and were told the only chance to be right with God was to break up our family. That is just obscene. God save us from your followers. Is it any wonder people throw up their hands and give up on religion?
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Post by juliette on Jan 28, 2009 23:08:12 GMT -5
We have a four year old and were told the only chance to be right with God was to break up our family. That is just obscene. God save us from your followers. Is it any wonder people throw up their hands and give up on religion? I do not understand when people follow "obscene" man made rules and edicts when they are clearly in conflict with the sense God gave us. On what planet is breaking up a family a good thing... let alone something that would make you "right with God"? But religion has always been used to justify ridiculous things; slavery, oppression of women, discrimination based on sexual orientation, the domination of the wealthy. All of these things are (to me) clearly outside of the very nature of God... the nature of God as seen in Jesus. It's got me almost unwilling to be identified as a "Christian".
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Post by servewithlove on Jan 29, 2009 0:19:07 GMT -5
What a beautiful Christ-like spirit you have, survive. This is evidence that God is truly working in your heart.
I don't understand how men can be so cruel sometimes. How they can judge so harshly and mis-interpret scripture so badly! But I know the love of God will continue to enfold those who truly love Him.
May you continue to know His comfort and strength in all you're facing - He will never fail you!
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Jan 31, 2009 18:29:51 GMT -5
To reply to one of the above posts: there is no stigma to those who remarry the same spouse. In fact, that is what is encouraged in the scriptures for those who have parted, to reconcile.
Reconciliation on many issues is very encouraging to all as reconciliation is the very endeavor the Lord would like us to experience with him.
When one of the mates remarries a different mate it puts a dead stop to the reconciliation process, and thereby, puts the brakes on to the leadings and direction of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by fred on Feb 1, 2009 4:39:41 GMT -5
" There is no stigma to those who remarry the same spouse". Is this not contrary to scripture - perhaps some homebaked theology for which some are famed. Perhaps I'm wrong. On the other hand if reconciliation is possible then that route is most desirable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2009 19:26:08 GMT -5
People should not be swift to divorce unless there is very good reason for it.
Reconciliation is a highly desirable thing. However, oft times reconciliation is not possible and sometimes it is not wise.
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Post by pianoman on Feb 10, 2009 12:26:18 GMT -5
What truly is a Marriage.
The bible says Mk. 10;9 "What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder".
I have heard from the workers everything from "having sexual relations joins a man and woman in marriage" to "the marriage was put to death by the abusive/cheating spouse".
In my meeting there were two D&R couples and there was no division of spirit there.
The couples petitioned the church, after talking with workers, to see if anyone had a problem with their taking part. Nobody said no. True spirit of God at work and no judgment.
This matter is an individual matter, and should be treated as such. No worker will have to endure the trauma of a bad marriage, nor will they experience the joy of a truly good marriage.
I can see where the workers may get involved if someone just doesn't respect marriage, but when there are issues like abuse, drugs, and alcohol, how is one to endure that. If the abuse, and drugs and alcohol are present at the time of the marriage, that is a different story, but still up to the individuals in their own hearts. An honest heart will not be disobedient to God.
I personally know of an elder on the West Coast that is D&R and I think because of his father-in-law's position in the meetings, he was "exempt" from worker judgment.
There are just too many politics in the fellowship, and the issues that affect our salvation need to be left to the individual.
Sojourningthrulife states :" When one of the mates remarries a different mate it puts a dead stop to the reconciliation process, and thereby, puts the brakes on to the leadings and direction of the Holy Spirit." This is not according to scripture. It says they are to reconcile and no restrictions are put on that process. How are people to have any standard if there are all of these hidden rules, that are all man-made?
I really believe that the D&R issue should be left alone, unless there is an obvious misuse of the marriage process.
What harm is there in having D&R couples in your meeting. Bad influence? I have seen worse in married but fence walking people.
Ram says:" Reconciliation is a highly desirable thing. However, oft times reconciliation is not possible and sometimes it is not wise." Right on spot, and very wise observation. What is one to do, when a spouse just leaves and there is no possibility for reconciliation? Did they not live up to their part of the bargain?
Too complicated for outside interference.
Peace to all and understanding for all, in Him.........................Pianoman and Glen to Ram
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Feb 13, 2009 16:48:42 GMT -5
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Feb 13, 2009 17:01:56 GMT -5
There is hope for every repentent sinner because heaven will be filled with repentent sinners.
The story of the Gospel seems to always open with the message of repentence. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...."
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Post by fred on Feb 14, 2009 4:41:33 GMT -5
STL, could you describe for me how a person who is divorced and remarried might demonstrate the fruits of repentence.......... or is this not possible?
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Post by Gene on Feb 14, 2009 8:12:01 GMT -5
STL, could you describe for me how a person who is divorced and remarried might demonstrate the fruits of repentence.......... or is this not possible? Mind if I answer this on behalf of STL? (Sorry -- can't stop myself.) STL will say (and please. STL, correct me where I am wrongly putting words in your mouth): "It's really very simple. The divorced and remarried person will demonstrate the fruits of repentance by separating from his or her spouse, thus ending the adulterous marriage, and thus remaining celibate and open to reconciliation with the first spouse, 'til death do them irreconcilably part." Oh (this is me speaking now because I wouldn't want to put this moral burden on STL, although it is the logical outcome of the rationale I attribute to her above), if there happen to be children from the second marriage... well... the parents will need to work out some kind of joint custody arrangement. Maybe live in separate apartments in the same building and the kids can trudge back and forth from mommy to daddy. Yeah, that will work much better than forcing the child to grow up in a SINFUL environment of ADULTEROUS, HEATHEN parents! Okay, still me speaking: Please, dear reader, tell me you see the utter violation of basic moral principles of such an arrangement! And yes, this has been a requirement of the f&w clergy in charge of the western U.S. The Christian right has hold on more than just the Republican party. And you should know better than to tell me that this approach is what the bible teaches. I won't dispute that. I'll just say that IF the bible teaches that approach, it's just another proof of the immorality of the bible. Cheers! g
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Feb 14, 2009 17:29:06 GMT -5
Bringing forth the fruits of repentence seems to be a major problems in the 20th and 21st century. Divorce and remarriage was not legal in many countries until then. Of course, now it is just assumed that "serial" marriages and divorces are just part of our lives. For the person practicing Christianity it is not.
Must be from any form of lack of self-discipline. And "lawlessness" which has crept in to this wide/wide world and is such a great part of the times of the end.
And thank you Gene for clarifying that is where the scripture stands on the topic.
The Grace of God is still sufficient for those who abide in His Love.
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Post by fred on Feb 14, 2009 21:19:44 GMT -5
You agree then with gene's assessment STL. I only have one comment.
Mark 7:8 " For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...." and .... Vs:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."
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Post by ronhall on Feb 16, 2009 9:50:24 GMT -5
I've always wondered about all the details left out of the story about Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well and the outcome of her relationships with several husbands plus the one she was living with but not married to.
Even though these were all "water-under-the-bridge" relationships and I would suppose the admonition would be "go and sin no more". So, were that case on the right coast, she would need to either get her live-in to marry her or drop the relationship, whereas on the left coast it would be required for her to forgo that and all further relationships.
Guess a third option would be to relocate from the left coast to the more tolerant side of the country, at least more tolerant on D&R but not necessarily more tolerant on anything else.
In fact I know a couple (family) that did just that. They were the typical merged family, with each divorced parent having a child or two plus one together. This couple hadn't seen the need to tie the legal knot when they heard the Gospel, grew to love the friends and workers and the meetings. They were strongly considering standing up in the Gospel meeting when they became aware of the D&R ban. So they quickly got their marriage certificate, then professed.
Perhaps had they left it at that and just remained quiet all might have been just fine, but their testimony was that the Spirit in dealing with them, revealed to them that their marital situation needed to be solidified before professing, similar to a smoker needing to quit smoking before professing; nothing more, nothing less. They were very open about this and spoke about it often.
Next thing I heard, they had moved east of the Rockies, I think to Colorado. They return for conventions on the western side and I've visited with them, but this subject has not come up. I don't ask, because it is none of my concern.
So it seems, as always, if there is a will, there is a way.
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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2009 18:39:24 GMT -5
Ron, I wonder how their marriage certificate helped them in their D&R situation? After all they were both previously divorced.
I think we're are going to some pretty serious twisting to get around that one!
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Post by survive on Feb 21, 2009 12:26:37 GMT -5
I started this thread and WOW the judgemental "we know what's right " is unreal. STL so what so you think divored people and remarried need to repent of? The divorce? the remarraige? You obiviously stand in judgement having never had to live these experiences. PEOPLE IN GLASSES HOUSES, SHOULDN'T THROW STONES" comes to mind. We no longer go to mtg and I guess, they won or not? I'm so thankful that we did not turn our back on our Savior just where we go to have fellowship. We could not have fellowship at mtg anyway. A very sad thing here in CA. If we could we would have moved back to CO but fighting Stage IV cancer we need to stay here where my adult children and lifelong friends are. We left beginning of Jan , never heard from the workers, friends, but of course not, we are not saved, I forgot. It is very hurtful, my husband and I are doing fine and there is no judgement just love where we worship now. I'm so trying not to get bitter so probably should not feed this.
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Post by survive on Feb 21, 2009 12:39:13 GMT -5
I would like to add that we emailed our Elders, we did get a response of sadness and the first Sunday we missed flowers were delivered to our home with a card that said "We missed you" That is the spirit of Christ for sure. The worker here had told me a yr ago that I needed to leave my husband to be ok with God so she was I'm sure happy we finally left. These older workers are so indoctrinated from Eldon Tenniswood (The Eldonites) that they probably will never change but I know a lot of workers here that don't agree and friends but they can't say anything. How sad. I need to always remember to pray for them.
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Post by ronhall on Feb 21, 2009 13:54:18 GMT -5
I would expect that your elders still miss you and would rather things were not as they are. I'm sure you will always remember their kindness.
Perhaps a good Bible study would be to search the scriptures for stories where someone was powerless to do anything about an unfortunate situation in this life. (I'm thinking about Zachariah the priest and father of John the Baptist who undoubtedly knew all about the money changers in the temple courtyard. It wasn't until later that Jesus himself overturned their tables.)
Good luck and don't sever communication with that elder & wife. They are surely the salt-of-the-earth.
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Post by survive on Feb 22, 2009 13:48:53 GMT -5
ronhall, Thank you so much for your comment. I will look into that in the scripture and thank you for that directing me to the bible not just your opinion. This is hard for me to with sadness but Jesus will walk with me through this also. I need to keep a soft heart.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 18:29:17 GMT -5
You agree then with gene's assessment STL. I only have one comment. Mark 7:8 " For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...." and .... Vs:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." Spot on Fred. Anyone who would advise separating a child from one or more of his/her parents has no idea about the heart of God. They are prepared to damage children to practice the tradition of men.
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