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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 18:38:43 GMT -5
BEWARE! THIS IS A JOKE, NOTHING MORE. (modified to include this warning on 11th May 2010 so that no more people take this seriously!)At long last we have some kind of support for the long-held tenuous claims of a link between William Irvine, his faith, his organisation and his sister's connection. May this put to rest the doubts of his accusers whom I hope will show a measure of circumspect as they consider this enlightening material. That his sister Dorothy was a prolific writer to editors of religious periodicals is a well attested fact. Her valiant efforts to the editor of the Impartial Reporter newspaper, though going unheeded, should nevertheless be recognised. It says a lot for that journal that she did not appear to have received even the courtesy of a reply? Anyway, I feel it is worth reprinting this effort for the benefit of those reading here. I have the permission of Mrs Molly Keddle, great granddaughter of Eilleen Dover, who knew Christina Box, close friend of Dorothy Irvine, a sister to the late William Irvine. Therefore, reprinting rights are not an issue. 15 Main Street Kilsyth Scotland
30th August 1910
Dear Sir,
I am a sister of William Irvine and this is my third letter to you in recent times in response to the regular articles appearing in "The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal" concerning the non-denominational Christian sect which you incorrectly refer to as "the Cooneyites" and by other inappropriate names.
It appears to me that you have chosen to completely ignore my previous letters as to date I have received no reply and neither of my letters have appeared in your journal. I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?
On this occasion I am compelled to take issue with your most recent portrayal titled "The Tramp Preachers," published on page 8 of the August 25th issue of your journal. In this somewhat extensive article, purported to be the reproduction of an account by an annonymous former member, detailing the doctrine and beliefs of our sect, many, many false claims are made. It would take at least one full edition of the Impartial Reporter to even begin to address my many concerns. Let your readers be aware, this whole article is a complete fabrication and could not have been written by any person who possessed intimate day to day knowledge of our sect.
In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, who states, "William Irvine, the FOUNDER and SUPREME AUTHORITY of what is known as Cooneyism."
Firstly, there is no such thing as Cooneyism. Secondly, we take no name for ourselves.
My good brother most definately was not the FOUNDER of our group, though in a sense it could be agreed that he was the FINDER.
Let me introduce you to a brief background out of which our group emerged. It is sad that our "quiet" presence in history has gone unnoticed and that as a result of our recent revival, all of recognised Christendom in Eire and Great Britain has sought to destroy us on account of the many people who are flocking to us due to the dissatisfaction they are experiencing with the traditional churches and their wrong portrayal of the Gospel message, claiming that we are some kind of new thing when in reality we precede them all.
As you know there were ascetic missionaries and communities existing in Eire centuries before the invasion of the Romish faith from which the many Protestant churches sprung forth.
During the days when the Romish faith gained authority and power, these primitive peoples enjoying simplicity in worship were heavily persecuted and scattered, just as we read of what happened to the early Christian church in Acts of the Apostles.
Some were forced to leave their homelands and headed for the remoter regions in Europe such as the Alps and Pyranees, etc. Others fled to the deep glens of the McGillycuddy Reeks in the south of Eire, where they obtained refuge from the simple aborigenes who stayed there. They continued to worship in their homes, all the time maintaining a low profile in society for centuries.
Alas, during the poverty times in Eire during the 19th century, resulting from the potato blight which brought much famine during which many hundreds of thousands of people starved to death, the numbers of our ancestral group also diminished rapidly. Some lucky ones set off to Europe and joined our brethren who were still existing in the remoter regions in much the same way as they had continued to survive in the lower regions of McGillycuddy's Reeks.
During the early 1890's my late sister Margaret went to work as a housemaid for a family who owned a considerable tract of land in the Reeks' region. After a short time she met a small community of worshippers (about four-six families) who met in their homes every Sabbath and during weekdays. On one occasion they were visited by worshippers from the same sect who had travelled over from Switzerland. They too had suffered from many hardships over the years and were down to about three families at the most. However, they were very skilled at making sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep and were able to survive better than most in those harsh days.
My sister later told my brother William about these simple people and the way they worshipped. Some time later my brother became a Superintendent with the Faith Mission and was sent to labour as a faith worker in the south of Eire for a number of years. During this time William visited these people, who quite naturally on account of all they had suffered in the past, beseached him to keep their existence and whereabouts secret.
William continued to visit these families in between his gospel missions and gradually saw that his way was wrong and that their way of worship was right. He remained true to his promise not to disclose any information about these few families, even to his fellow christian colleagues. Nevertheless, a work had begun in William. He had to break away from the Faith Mission and somehow continue the way he'd learned in the glens of the Reeks. A few years later, his connection with the Faith Mission ceased and after a short while he took up the torch of faith and carried it forward.
Now you can see how my brother was not the founder of this way of faith, but he clearly was the finder. Those few families in the Reeks region have diminished even further due to age, but nowadays there is little risk to them. Nevertheless, they desire to live in quietness and simplicity and cherish the fact that my brother is secretly carrying forward their faith which began on the shores of Gallilee some 2000 years ago.
If you have prevailed with me thus far you will see just how far off course that even the beginning of your article is. I crave desperately that you will publish this letter in order that everyone will know the truth of our sect and put an end to all the controvery and wrong reporting of our group.
Yours FaithfullyDorothy Irvine signed ======================== edit by mod3, to prevent further misunderstanding:TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN. PLEASE DO NOT TREAT THE CONTENTS OF THE ORIGINAL POST (INCLUDING THE LETTER BY DOROTHY IRVINE) ON THIS THREAD, MADE BY MYSELF, WITH ANY SERIOUSNESS AS THE WHOLE THING WAS PRESENTED AS A JOKE.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 15, 2010 19:11:32 GMT -5
You've certainly brought something big & hairy to the table here ram.
So what became of the McGillycuddy Reeks folks?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 19:16:54 GMT -5
Hi Rob, obviously I don't really know, but due to the fact they were getting quite elderly and fewer in number (a few families), either they died out or maybe they were quietly accepted into the continuation sect. At this stage we just don't know if the younger members of these families ever professed. It's unlikely that any information has been left on record, but it can be surprising what can be found in the Imagi vaults.
As for the Swiss folks, it appears they were in even more dire straights, numbers wise.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 19:19:23 GMT -5
Why did not WI address all of this in his days in Israel? Why did he not "gloat" over these facts when he "gloated" over "his experiment"?
I have to wonder just what kind of fairy tale he fed his sister Dorothy at the time? I do believe her letter is being honest from her perspective...but it makes NO sense that when WI became the braggart he was in Israel about the "great experiment" he would have been more apt to say where he came up with all of this.
I'm not sold yet!
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 19:49:45 GMT -5
Why did not WI address all of this in his days in Israel? Why did he not "gloat" over these facts when he "gloated" over "his experiment"? I have to wonder just what kind of fairy tale he fed his sister Dorothy at the time? I do believe her letter is being honest from her perspective...but it makes NO sense that when WI became the braggart he was in Israel about the "great experiment" he would have been more apt to say where he came up with all of this. I'm not sold yet! And you will likely never be sold You see the answer is not in the article above even though I no doubt it is true but the answer in fact is in the Holy Spirit within and giving rest in one's soul over these matters in which most of the participants of this board agonize over. It is not about whether Irvine was this or that or did this or that which so many on here cling to, to find some vain hope of wanting this fellowship to be how they want it to be or to find some occasion against, but to know the workings of The Holy Spirit which give rest to these things. You see what William did or not do is irrelevant it is what God does that matters.
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Post by Gene on Apr 15, 2010 20:00:15 GMT -5
Can't be true. Would've gone into some detail about cousin Hans-Ruedi, the Swiss tail-docker.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 20:01:52 GMT -5
Why did not WI address all of this in his days in Israel? Why did he not "gloat" over these facts when he "gloated" over "his experiment"? I have to wonder just what kind of fairy tale he fed his sister Dorothy at the time? I do believe her letter is being honest from her perspective...but it makes NO sense that when WI became the braggart he was in Israel about the "great experiment" he would have been more apt to say where he came up with all of this. I'm not sold yet! And you will likely never be sold You see the answer is not in the article above even though I no doubt it is true but the answer in fact is in the Holy Spirit within and giving rest in one's soul over these matters in which most of the participants of this board agonize over. It is not about whether Irvine was this or that or did this or that which so many on here cling to, to find some vain hope of wanting this fellowship to be how they want it to be or to find some occasion against, but to know the workings of The Holy Spirit which give rest to these things. You see what William did or not do is irrelevant it is what God does that matters. Yes, Kiwi, I agree the Holy Spirit resides in those who have come under the blood of Jesus Christ and these people are NOT just within the truth's fellowship....I've been amazed and shocked to find zealous Christian disciples elsewhere outside the truth's fellowship and I'm regretful that I was taught from infancy that the truth's fellowship IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY and all other "chrisitian" professions are false and headed for hell...for I've found the power of God reaches beyond the minimal group the fellowship enjoys or has enjoyed for over 110 yrs. I think we ALL limit the power of God and the working of the Holy Spirit to say ONLY those within the truth's fellowship are headed for salvation! For shame on us!
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2010 20:54:23 GMT -5
This letter seems to have language too related to today. I doubt if it is true but written more recently by someone, if not Ram himself.
e.g. the non-denominational Christian sect this is definitely modern day talk: Quote: "I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?"
Impartiality, grossly offensive manner of your reporting - seems more modern day politically correct language and thought.
Who is this former member - again modern day talk of former members: Quote: "In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, "
false in quotation marks, is a modern way of high lightening words
Quote regarding: The history of the group and recent revival - what history? WI was with the Faith Mission prior to starting his group so the history started with William.
The letter was defiantly made up by someone in recent years. Very recent.
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Post by emy on Apr 15, 2010 21:29:46 GMT -5
Can't be true. Would've gone into some detail about cousin Hans-Ruedi, the Swiss tail-docker. I agree. But it does smack of the tail-docker story. JMO ;D
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
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Post by shushy on Apr 15, 2010 21:34:25 GMT -5
As I read the letter I wondered about the need for secrecy? When the message of the Gospel is spreading why hide it, when the apostles did the opposite? They must have been very afraid for the lives maybe.
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2010 21:34:45 GMT -5
Hi Ram, what is an Imagi vault?
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2010 22:02:14 GMT -5
As I read the letter I wondered about the need for secrecy? When the message of the Gospel is spreading why hide it, when the apostles did the opposite? They must have been very afraid for the lives maybe. Why would they be afraid for their lives? William's sister was alive in the days where religion was every where and revival and new groups springing up. Missionaries had been traveling around discovering new lands many years before she was born. Interesting how it was supposedly done in secrecy until William Irvine came along and then it became the talk of the town. The language of the letter certainly sounded like a modern day educated person, not the language of 100 years ago. Easy to see the letter is a hoax.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 22:04:31 GMT -5
This letter seems to have language too related to today. I doubt if it is true and not written more recently by someone. e.g. the non-denominational Christian sect this is definitely modern day talk: Quote: "I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?" impartiality, grossly offensive manner of your reporting - seems more modern day politically correct language Adan thought. Who is this former member - again modern day talk of former members: Quote: "In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, " false in quotation marks, is a modern way of high lightening words Quote regarding: The history of the group and recent revival - what history? WI was with the Faith Mission prior to starting his group so the history started with William. The letter was defiantly made up by someone in recent years. Very recent. And if it's true?
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2010 22:06:48 GMT -5
This letter seems to have language too related to today. I doubt if it is true and not written more recently by someone. e.g. the non-denominational Christian sect this is definitely modern day talk: Quote: "I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?" impartiality, grossly offensive manner of your reporting - seems more modern day politically correct language Adan thought. Who is this former member - again modern day talk of former members: Quote: "In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, " false in quotation marks, is a modern way of high lightening words Quote regarding: The history of the group and recent revival - what history? WI was with the Faith Mission prior to starting his group so the history started with William. The letter was defiantly made up by someone in recent years. Very recent. And if it's true? Anyone can see it is not. Interesting how it has suddenly come to light. Has anyone seen it before? Who is this Mrs Molly Keddle, ram?
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2010 22:09:32 GMT -5
Well it seems to answer every question I have read here so it seems almost too good to be true. And, if it seems too good to be true, it likely isn't true. Ram was talking about making something up. I think he did a fine job!!
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 22:10:37 GMT -5
At long last we have some kind of support for the long-held tenuous claims of a link between William Irvine, his faith, his organisation and his sister's connection. May this put to rest the doubts of his accusers whom I hope will show a measure of circumspect as they consider this enlightening material. That his sister Dorothy was a prolific writer to editors of religious periodicals is a well attested fact. Her valiant efforts to the editor of the Impartial Reporter newspaper, though going unheeded, should nevertheless be recognised. It says a lot for that journal that she did not appear to have received even the courtesy of a reply? Anyway, I feel it is worth reprinting this effort for the benefit of those reading here. I have the permission of Mrs Molly Keddle, great granddaughter of Eilleen Dover, who knew Christina Box, close friend of Dorothy Irvine, a sister to the late William Irvine. Therefore, reprinting rights are not an issue. 15 Main Street Kilsyth Scotland
30th August 1910
Dear Sir,
I am a sister of William Irvine and this is my third letter to you in recent times in response to the regular articles appearing in "The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal" concerning the non-denominational Christian sect which you incorrectly refer to as "the Cooneyites" and by other inappropriate names.
It appears to me that you have chosen to completely ignore my previous letters as to date I have received no reply and neither of my letters have appeared in your journal. I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?
On this occasion I am compelled to take issue with your most recent portrayal titled "The Tramp Preachers," published on page 8 of the August 25th issue of your journal. In this somewhat extensive article, purported to be the reproduction of an account by an annonymous former member, detailing the doctrine and beliefs of our sect, many, many false claims are made. It would take at least one full edition of the Impartial Reporter to even begin to address my many concerns. Let your readers be aware, this whole article is a complete fabrication and could not have been written by any person who possessed intimate day to day knowledge of our sect.
In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, who states, "William Irvine, the FOUNDER and SUPREME AUTHORITY of what is known as Cooneyism."
Firstly, there is no such thing as Cooneyism. Secondly, we take no name for ourselves.
My good brother most definately was not the FOUNDER of our group, though in a sense it could be agreed that he was the FINDER.
Let me introduce you to a brief background out of which our group emerged. It is sad that our "quiet" presence in history has gone unnoticed and that as a result of our recent revival, all of recognised Christendom in Eire and Great Britain has sought to destroy us on account of the many people who are flocking to us due to the dissatisfaction they are experiencing with the traditional churches and their wrong portrayal of the Gospel message, claiming that we are some kind of new thing when in reality we precede them all.
As you know there were ascetic missionaries and communities existing in Eire centuries before the invasion of the Romish faith from which the many Protestant churches sprung forth.
During the days when the Romish faith gained authority and power, these primitive peoples enjoying simplicity in worship were heavily persecuted and scattered, just as we read of what happened to the early Christian church in Acts of the Apostles.
Some were forced to leave their homelands and headed for the remoter regions in Europe such as the Alps and Pyranees, etc. Others fled to the deep glens of the McGillycuddy Reeks in the south of Eire, where they obtained refuge from the simple aborigenes who stayed there. They continued to worship in their homes, all the time maintaining a low profile in society for centuries.
Alas, during the poverty times in Eire during the 19th century, resulting from the potato blight which brought much famine during which many hundreds of thousands of people starved to death, the numbers of our ancestral group also diminished rapidly. Some lucky ones set off to Europe and joined our brethren who were still existing in the remoter regions in much the same way as they had continued to survive in the lower regions of McGillycuddy's Reeks.
During the early 1890's my late sister Margaret went to work as a housemaid for a family who owned a considerable tract of land in the Reeks' region. After a short time she met a small community of worshippers (about four-six families) who met in their homes every Sabbath and during weekdays. On one occasion they were visited by worshippers from the same sect who had travelled over from Switzerland. They too had suffered from many hardships over the years and were down to about three families at the most. However, they were very skilled at making sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep and were able to survive better than most in those harsh days.
My sister later told my brother William about these simple people and the way they worshipped. Some time later my brother became a Superintendent with the Faith Mission and was sent to labour as a faith worker in the south of Eire for a number of years. During this time William visited these people, who quite naturally on account of all they had suffered in the past, beseached him to keep their existence and whereabouts secret.
William continued to visit these families in between his gospel missions and gradually saw that his way was wrong and that their way of worship was right. He remained true to his promise not to disclose any information about these few families, even to his fellow christian colleagues. Nevertheless, a work had begun in William. He had to break away from the Faith Mission and somehow continue the way he'd learned in the glens of the Reeks. A few years later, his connection with the Faith Mission ceased and after a short while he took up the torch of faith and carried it forward.
Now you can see how my brother was not the founder of this way of faith, but he clearly was the finder. Those few families in the Reeks region have diminished even further due to age, but nowadays there is little risk to them. Nevertheless, they desire to live in quietness and simplicity and cherish the fact that my brother is secretly carrying forward their faith which began on the shores of Gallilee some 2000 years ago.
If you have prevailed with me thus far you will see just how far off course that even the beginning of your article is. I crave desperately that you will publish this letter in order that everyone will know the truth of our sect and put an end to all the controvery and wrong reporting of our group.
Yours FaithfullyDorothy Irvine signed Ram do you consider this letter to be authentic and true? Or is it as believer makes that he is not a believer of it? If you believe it not to be authentic and true then I would ask why post it? Can I ask from whom you received it?
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 22:14:21 GMT -5
Anyone can see it is not. Interesting how it has suddenly come to light. Has anyone seen it before? Who is this Mrs Molly Keddle, ram? Just to say anyone can it is not doesn't prove it's not Anyone can say that even you maybe not as you seem
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 22:17:35 GMT -5
Well it seems to answer every question I have read here so it seems almost too good to be true. And, if it seems too good to be true, it likely isn't true. Ram was talking about making something up. I think he did a fine job!! Well if he has made it up then I would have to say deceit is a very strong point of human nature and not of the born again. But I am giving Ram the honour of believing that has been honest and true.
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Post by open mind on Apr 15, 2010 22:31:49 GMT -5
I have contacted the Impartial Reporter and asked them to check their archives for this letter...
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2010 22:49:22 GMT -5
Well it seems to answer every question I have read here so it seems almost too good to be true. And, if it seems too good to be true, it likely isn't true. Ram was talking about making something up. I think he did a fine job!! Well if he has made it up then I would have to say deceit is a very strong point of human nature and not of the born again. But I am giving Ram the honour of believing that has been honest and true. If it isn't true and Ram knows it, I don't think he did it for any other reason than a joke. Who knows, You might be right Kiwi. You certainly have as much of a chance as anyone else. However, believer has made some very good points and I think it is far too slick and answers all the questions in one letter. Makes one wonder, that's for sure!
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BaPa
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Post by BaPa on Apr 15, 2010 23:07:55 GMT -5
This is sure quite a find! Especially on US Income Tax day.
I do see one problem with it, The letter was revealed some 14 days late. But then again with the volcano problems in Europe would attest to the time delay.
I'm sure Nathan is really relieved now having such a document for his proof archive. Thank goodness for the Imagi vaults. All kinds of information had been retrieved from them.
I'm sure The Truth will now have have a major influx of ex folks especially the ones who left because they felt William Irvine was the founder of The Truth. Perhaps more workers and conventions will need to be added for the influx of ex's
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2010 23:25:45 GMT -5
This is sure quite a find! Especially on US Income Tax day. I do see one problem with it, The letter was revealed some 14 days late. But then again with the volcano problems in Europe would attest to the time delay. I'm sure Nathan is really relieved now having such a document for his proof archive. Thank goodness for the Imagi vaults. All kinds of information had been retrieved from them. I'm sure The Truth will now have have a major influx of ex folks especially the ones who left because they felt William Irvine was the founder of The Truth. Perhaps more workers and conventions will need to be added for the influx of ex's Not a founder, but a finder! Another recently discussed TMB topic. Sleep well, Ram. You have been known for your stories. Give my regards to Molly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 3:01:44 GMT -5
Hi Ram, what is an Imagi vault? Snow, I'm sure you accept that the land of Imagi is a much bigger nation than the Russian Federal Republic. They have amazing historical vaults that we can tap into. What amazes me, is that no matter how high quality the evidence one provides, we are surrounded by a sea of skepticism. I've done my bit. I will take Nathan's oft expressed advice and let the readers decide for themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 3:21:29 GMT -5
At long last we have some kind of support for the long-held tenuous claims of a link between William Irvine, his faith, his organisation and his sister's connection. May this put to rest the doubts of his accusers whom I hope will show a measure of circumspect as they consider this enlightening material. That his sister Dorothy was a prolific writer to editors of religious periodicals is a well attested fact. Her valiant efforts to the editor of the Impartial Reporter newspaper, though going unheeded, should nevertheless be recognised. It says a lot for that journal that she did not appear to have received even the courtesy of a reply? Anyway, I feel it is worth reprinting this effort for the benefit of those reading here. I have the permission of Mrs Molly Keddle, great granddaughter of Eilleen Dover, who knew Christina Box, close friend of Dorothy Irvine, a sister to the late William Irvine. Therefore, reprinting rights are not an issue. 15 Main Street Kilsyth Scotland
30th August 1910
Dear Sir,
I am a sister of William Irvine and this is my third letter to you in recent times in response to the regular articles appearing in "The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal" concerning the non-denominational Christian sect which you incorrectly refer to as "the Cooneyites" and by other inappropriate names.
It appears to me that you have chosen to completely ignore my previous letters as to date I have received no reply and neither of my letters have appeared in your journal. I would have thought in the interests of fairness and "impartiality" that you would have given air to my concerns, especially since I have pointed out the incorrect, biased and grossly offensive manner of your reporting?
On this occasion I am compelled to take issue with your most recent portrayal titled "The Tramp Preachers," published on page 8 of the August 25th issue of your journal. In this somewhat extensive article, purported to be the reproduction of an account by an annonymous former member, detailing the doctrine and beliefs of our sect, many, many false claims are made. It would take at least one full edition of the Impartial Reporter to even begin to address my many concerns. Let your readers be aware, this whole article is a complete fabrication and could not have been written by any person who possessed intimate day to day knowledge of our sect.
In view of this I will concentrate on the initial "false" claim by this supposed former member, who states, "William Irvine, the FOUNDER and SUPREME AUTHORITY of what is known as Cooneyism."
Firstly, there is no such thing as Cooneyism. Secondly, we take no name for ourselves.
My good brother most definately was not the FOUNDER of our group, though in a sense it could be agreed that he was the FINDER.
Let me introduce you to a brief background out of which our group emerged. It is sad that our "quiet" presence in history has gone unnoticed and that as a result of our recent revival, all of recognised Christendom in Eire and Great Britain has sought to destroy us on account of the many people who are flocking to us due to the dissatisfaction they are experiencing with the traditional churches and their wrong portrayal of the Gospel message, claiming that we are some kind of new thing when in reality we precede them all.
As you know there were ascetic missionaries and communities existing in Eire centuries before the invasion of the Romish faith from which the many Protestant churches sprung forth.
During the days when the Romish faith gained authority and power, these primitive peoples enjoying simplicity in worship were heavily persecuted and scattered, just as we read of what happened to the early Christian church in Acts of the Apostles.
Some were forced to leave their homelands and headed for the remoter regions in Europe such as the Alps and Pyranees, etc. Others fled to the deep glens of the McGillycuddy Reeks in the south of Eire, where they obtained refuge from the simple aborigenes who stayed there. They continued to worship in their homes, all the time maintaining a low profile in society for centuries.
Alas, during the poverty times in Eire during the 19th century, resulting from the potato blight which brought much famine during which many hundreds of thousands of people starved to death, the numbers of our ancestral group also diminished rapidly. Some lucky ones set off to Europe and joined our brethren who were still existing in the remoter regions in much the same way as they had continued to survive in the lower regions of McGillycuddy's Reeks.
During the early 1890's my late sister Margaret went to work as a housemaid for a family who owned a considerable tract of land in the Reeks' region. After a short time she met a small community of worshippers (about four-six families) who met in their homes every Sabbath and during weekdays. On one occasion they were visited by worshippers from the same sect who had travelled over from Switzerland. They too had suffered from many hardships over the years and were down to about three families at the most. However, they were very skilled at making sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep and were able to survive better than most in those harsh days.
My sister later told my brother William about these simple people and the way they worshipped. Some time later my brother became a Superintendent with the Faith Mission and was sent to labour as a faith worker in the south of Eire for a number of years. During this time William visited these people, who quite naturally on account of all they had suffered in the past, beseached him to keep their existence and whereabouts secret.
William continued to visit these families in between his gospel missions and gradually saw that his way was wrong and that their way of worship was right. He remained true to his promise not to disclose any information about these few families, even to his fellow christian colleagues. Nevertheless, a work had begun in William. He had to break away from the Faith Mission and somehow continue the way he'd learned in the glens of the Reeks. A few years later, his connection with the Faith Mission ceased and after a short while he took up the torch of faith and carried it forward.
Now you can see how my brother was not the founder of this way of faith, but he clearly was the finder. Those few families in the Reeks region have diminished even further due to age, but nowadays there is little risk to them. Nevertheless, they desire to live in quietness and simplicity and cherish the fact that my brother is secretly carrying forward their faith which began on the shores of Gallilee some 2000 years ago.
If you have prevailed with me thus far you will see just how far off course that even the beginning of your article is. I crave desperately that you will publish this letter in order that everyone will know the truth of our sect and put an end to all the controvery and wrong reporting of our group.
Yours FaithfullyDorothy Irvine signed Ram do you consider this letter to be authentic and true? Or is it as believer makes that he is not a believer of it? If you believe it not to be authentic and true then I would ask why post it? Can I ask from whom you received it? Kiwi, I have every reason to believe it is an authentic and true "letter" which I have posted on this board. However, you must understand that I too have reasons to be skeptical about its contents. Lately I have been carrying out some researches in the Press and Journal section of the Imagi vaults, which is how I came upon the whereabouts of this letter.
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Post by jason on Apr 16, 2010 4:32:58 GMT -5
I think I am one of the few people with any training in analysing historical documents. I have read through it carefully, and performed some basic research, but I am deeply sceptical as to its authenticity. A few points to consider: - The use of the term "Eire" for Ireland. The term "Eire" became official in 1919, prior to which Northern Ireland was simply an extension of the United Kingdom. I find it unusual that a Scot, writing in 1910, would refer to Ireland in this manner, given that she did not refer to Scotland by its Gaelic name Alba or its Latin Scotia. It strikes me as an odd etymology, almost as if one were attempting to make the writing purposefully antiquated.
To contrast, I found a document written by an Irishman in 1908, approximately the same time at which Dorothy's letter was purportedly written. The document I used as a period contrast was written by a James Connolly, who writes to the newspaper The Harp on the topic of Socialism in Ireland. James Connolly is particularly useful for these purpose because he was himself born in Scotland (Dorothy's context), the child of immigrant Irish parents. He grew up to be a radical who lead uprisings against the British and was finally executed. As he did not use the term "Eire" once in his article, I find it odd that it should appear in a fellow Scotswoman's letter. See link for evidence: www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1908/03/socinire.htm
Dorothy writes about "Eire and Great Britain", as though they were separate entities. But in 1910, both were virtually synonymous.
- I was initially sceptical about the use of "scare quotes" to express disbelief or irony. I conducted some research on the use of quotation marks in this manner.
The use of quotation marks to express "sarcasm" were first documented by English theorists in 1950, but evidence exists of them being used as early 1908. Therefore, although it must have been an unusual practice, Dorothy could well have been on the cutting edge of English practice for her time and thus employed "scare quotes" for effect. In other words, this is not a stroke against the authenticity of the document.
- Dorothy mentions friends coming from Switzerland who were skilled at making "sounding instruments" from the horns of sheep and cattle. While it is true that the traditional Swiss instrument the Alphorn is a "sounding instrument", it is not made of animal horns but of wood. Indeed, apart from the Jewish Shofar, it seems that at the turn of the century the use of animal horns for "sounding instruments" were no more common than they are now, and probably not sufficient to finance a livelihood. This seems to be something of a creative flourish.
I have done some basic research into the sheep and cattle industry of Switzerland, but have not found much.
- However, in my opinion, the most significant feature that most strongly suggests this document is not authentic is found at the end of the letter. Dorothy writes about the "faith which began on the shores of Gallilee some 2000 years ago".
Referring to the origin of Christianity as being within the frame of "some 2000 years ago" is very much a contemporary practice. If Dorothy wrote this letter in 1910 - that is, 90 years before the turn of the millennium - it would have been more likely that she would write "almost 2000 years ago", or "1900 years ago". That is to say, this is an unconscious psychological quirk in historical sources: people round chronological figures up or down relative to their own point in time.
- I have done some preliminary work on looking at the address given. From what I have been able to divine, it is not presently used as a residential location. This would require further work, however, to obtain definitive data.
It is a shame that we do not have a scanned copy of the original document, because I would be able to then see whether the numerous spelling errors in this text were also in the original. There is a degree of frustration in trying to make an historical analysis of a document one cannot see and handle. In my opinion, this text is quite possibly fraudulent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 5:00:13 GMT -5
Great Britain and Ireland are not synonymous. The "British Isles" includes both Northern and southern Ireland, but Great Britain does not include either the North or Southern Ireland. The correct title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom therefore includes Northern Ireland but Great Britain does not. Souhern Ireland is a separate country.
The Scots for many years have used a host of names for Ireland, including Eire. However, terms like alba etc as titles for Scotland are so distant in history that many Scots wouldn't have a clue as to what they refer to.
On the subject of being skilled in the making of sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep, this causes me to ask that there is a blowing of the ram's other horn. These animal parts were most commonly used as receptacles for infantrymen carrying their gunpowder.
In the latter part of the 19th century many traditional churches regarded the time span of 2000 years since the time of Christ in much the same way as we regard 1100 hours as nearing mid-day.
Nonetheless, caution as in all things should be exercised. As Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of Great Britain and Ireland once said to Parliament, "Be it unto me to deliver unto you, that which thou desirest." He was referring to Ireland in his subjugation of the British Isles and was warning of the dangers of meddling with the Emerald Isle.
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Post by jason on Apr 16, 2010 5:03:08 GMT -5
Great Britain and Ireland are not synonymous. Currently the correct name for the "British Isles" which includes both Northern and southern Ireland, is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom therefore includes Northern Ireland but Great Britain does not. The Scots for many years have used a host of names for Ireland, including Eire. However, terms like alba etc as titles for Scotland are so distant in history that many Scots wouldn't have a clue as to what they refer to. On the subject of being skilled in the making of sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep, this causes me to ask that there is a blowing of the ram's other horn. These animal parts were most commonly used as receptacles for infantrymen carrying their gunpowder. In the latter part of the 19th century many traditional churches regarded the time span of 2000 years since the time of Christ in much the same way as we regard 1100 hours as nearing mid-day. Nonetheless, caution as in all things should be exercised. As Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of Great Britain and Ireland once said to Parliament, "Be it unto me to deliver unto you, that which thou desirest." He was referring to Ireland in his subjugation of the British Isles and was warning of the dangers of meddling with the Emerald Isle. I did not make the assertions you imply that I have. But hey, sweep it to the side! You go for it Ram. You believe whatever you want.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 5:05:26 GMT -5
Great Britain and Ireland are not synonymous. Currently the correct name for the "British Isles" which includes both Northern and southern Ireland, is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom therefore includes Northern Ireland but Great Britain does not. The Scots for many years have used a host of names for Ireland, including Eire. However, terms like alba etc as titles for Scotland are so distant in history that many Scots wouldn't have a clue as to what they refer to. On the subject of being skilled in the making of sounding instruments from the horns of cattle and sheep, this causes me to ask that there is a blowing of the ram's other horn. These animal parts were most commonly used as receptacles for infantrymen carrying their gunpowder. In the latter part of the 19th century many traditional churches regarded the time span of 2000 years since the time of Christ in much the same way as we regard 1100 hours as nearing mid-day. Nonetheless, caution as in all things should be exercised. As Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of Great Britain and Ireland once said to Parliament, "Be it unto me to deliver unto you, that which thou desirest." He was referring to Ireland in his subjugation of the British Isles and was warning of the dangers of meddling with the Emerald Isle. I did not make the assertions you imply that I have. But hey, sweep it to the side! You go for it Ram. You believe whatever you want. No harm meant, Jason. It's just the way your post comes across.
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