info
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Post by info on Jan 27, 2010 9:03:09 GMT -5
Easily? An F&W could just as easily start a new site as I could. Websites are a lot of HARD work. I'm not sure how many pages are on the TTT site but I would guess it's in the mid to high hundreds. So no, this would not be 'easy.' Keeping motivated on non-paying projects like this is a real issue, working with 'new' data is much more motivating that re-work. ;D Yes there is a bias on the TTT (and every other site,) and I too feel it would be better to have kept historical separate from the more 'editorial' content. But it's not my site, nor my work that went into it. IMO a site that would be built by consensus of a group would be incomplete as there would always be some things that would never be agreed on to post.
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info
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Post by info on Jan 27, 2010 9:08:12 GMT -5
Good work, Wanderer. IMO you would be better to not link to sites that show any bias at all (which is probably all sites with the exception perhaps of Wikipedia). If people want to find other sites they can Google them. As a member of the fellowship I avoid pointing people to 2x2 related websites, but I'm happy to discuss the material with those who've already found them. I think the Google suggestion is a good idea, you could even add a Google search box to your site instead of displaying any links. (I'd remove the Wiki one, too)
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2010 10:06:51 GMT -5
What "editorial" info are you referring to? Specifically - please give some examples.
Are you saying that I shouldnt have written my book?
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Post by lin on Jan 27, 2010 10:18:14 GMT -5
What "editorial" info are you referring to? Specifically - please give some examples. Are you saying that I shouldnt have written my book? My! Aren't we innocent. Probably hasn't read your site either Cherie.
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info
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Post by info on Jan 27, 2010 11:05:05 GMT -5
What "editorial" info are you referring to? Specifically - please give some examples. Are you saying that I shouldnt have written my book? I was replying to what was posted, and quoted by you. Perhaps historical and non-historical (or personal) would be a better way to word it. Without reading the content under each, I would keep history, photo's, workers and publications as 'historical' and move the rest. Those would be my suggestions if you were going for 'pure' history, which you have decided not to do. As far as a book, I didn't know you had written one, but would have nothing against you or anyone else writing one. Yes, I have read parts of your site but it's been a while. Now when I go there it's topic specific.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2010 11:11:52 GMT -5
Actually, "info", it's not as easy as you think...for that is not what they are suggesting. As I understand the proposed criteria would be only positive historical documents-- What would be the criteria - that is the question? Is "historical" the criteria? or "only positive historical documents." If the concept of omitting anything "negative" is strictly followed...a ton of important historical documents would be left out. So it could get into cherry picking pretty fast...and rewriting history by leaving out important historical information/details. TTT's criteria is to report ALL known published information about the group (EXCEPT for links to Nate and Bert's websites.) Positive and negative. The Basic Researchers Guide on TTT is a list of ALL those documents, found at: www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_guide/The earliest detailed historical information is the Impartial Reporter newspaper (Enniskillen, N Ire) and these articles are considered "negative" by some F&W. Would they be included or left out? See IMP articles at: www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_guide/newsprold.phpThere are other old printed material/booklets warning citizens of that day against the group are "historical" but would be considered negative. They prove the sect was in existence at that time. Links on this page can be followed to read some of these publications: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/My book has long been TTT. (BTW, it's not completed yet) www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/00wmibook.php
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info
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Post by info on Jan 27, 2010 12:22:57 GMT -5
I don't think any part of it would be easy, just the time to move pages (once they are id'ed) would be huge.
I must have skimmed over the part about the 'positive documents,' that would be a whole new can of worms where there would never be a consensus.
Alberta and the conscientious objector letters would be two examples.
Guess my vote would be to leave your site as is as you will never please everyone, it's just a matter of where you want to drawn the line.
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 12:33:39 GMT -5
What "editorial" info are you referring to? Specifically - please give some examples. Are you saying that I shouldnt have written my book? My! Aren't we innocent. Probably hasn't read your site either Cherie. Curious lin, why are you so hostile towards the TTT site? Others don't seem to be so against it as you are. I'm new here so don't know the history of your thoughts on it, therefore, I'm asking.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2010 12:39:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your vote to leave TTT as it is. I plan to do just that. I was not entertaining any thot of changing the style of TTT - however, additional info will continue to be added, as available.
Some others are wanting a separate "stripped" site--with only positive docs.
I offered my (limited) assistance if someone should want to start such a website. I'm all for getting the historical information "out there" until it is common knowledge by everyone who has ever been associated with the F&W fellowship. The more places the history is posted, the better, IMO.
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Post by someguy on Jan 27, 2010 12:42:01 GMT -5
I offered my (limited) assistance if someone should want to start such a website. I'm all for getting the historical information "out there" until it is common knowledge by everyone who has ever been associated with the F&W fellowship. The more places the history is posted, the better, IMO. I agree, if wanderer is going to create a site for just documents, and wants to play a large part in giving people information, that is just great. I see no harm in that and I agree, the more place the history is posted, the better.
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Post by lin on Jan 27, 2010 12:42:30 GMT -5
I am not hostile to the site. I appreciate the factual history that is in the site. It is as accurate, unless it could be proved differently, as anything available. I am against the subtle tone of the site however that tries to influence the thoughts of others opinions.
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 13:15:05 GMT -5
I am not hostile to the site. I appreciate the factual history that is in the site. It is as accurate, unless it could be proved differently, as anything available. I am against the subtle tone of the site however that tries to influence the thoughts of others opinions. Okay, thanks for explaining that for me. I believe any time we put something into writing, we will be influencing other's thoughts. I don't think we can prevent that. I felt TTT was pretty fair overall. After all, some of the history of the 2x2's (like any organization) is not all positive. There will be some writings that reflect this. I don't think it's avoidable really.
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Post by lin on Jan 27, 2010 13:33:43 GMT -5
History is never if told truthfully, positive. Often I have found it hard to comprehend,that God has left so much of the story of salvation to humans. I am not a biased person.I've always been open to others feelings and thoughts. I always question,though, motives more than words.
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Post by JO on Jan 27, 2010 13:37:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your vote to leave TTT as it is. I plan to do just that. I was not entertaining any thot of changing the style of TTT - however, additional info will continue to be added, as available. Some others are wanting a separate "stripped" site--with only positive docs. I offered my (limited) assistance if someone should want to start such a website. I'm all for getting the historical information "out there" until it is common knowledge by everyone who has ever been associated with the F&W fellowship. The more places the history is posted, the better, IMO. Cherie, I don't know where you got the idea that some of us want "negative" historical documents removed. I mentioned the word "negative" so perhaps you misunderstood me. I have no problem with the historical "negative" documents that you refer to. My problem with referring people to your site is that its a gateway to some pages on the web that are full of hatred for anything 2x2. PS: I wonder if the anti-2x2 stuff mixed in amongst the historical documents is counter-productive to us getting up to speed with the history of our group. It would be good for friends and workers to be able to research the history of the church without the "you're in an abusive cult and need to get out" bombardment. Cornelius Jaenen's book does this quite well. www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/The_Apostles_Doctrine_and_Fellowship-A_Documentary_History_of_the_Early_Church/1894508483/
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 13:55:48 GMT -5
History is never if told truthfully, positive. Often I have found it hard to comprehend,that God has left so much of the story of salvation to humans. I am not a biased person.I've always been open to others feelings and thoughts. I always question,though, motives more than words. No, history is a blend of both. You're right. Questioning is good. It is how we arrive at our "truth".
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2010 21:43:38 GMT -5
JO, I dont want to misunderstand your comment above; however, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the above statement.
So before I respond, I wanted to ask if you could be more explicit as to exactly what your "problem" is with TTT? Or could you state it in some other terms?
Thanx, CK
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Post by What Hat on Jan 28, 2010 0:47:08 GMT -5
I left because of exclusivity, self righteousness, and other such problems. Wonderful lovely people, sketchy system. Most who leave, do it because of exclusivity. Our leaders seem unable to fix that problem. There's nothing wrong with celibate ministers who dedicate their lives to serving Christ and their fellow man. However there's a lot wrong with forbidding married people to minister in the work of the gospel. Our leadership is entirely made up of people who have forgone marriage, career, and a settled lifestyle i.e. people who have invested a great deal in the ministry system. They can't imagine that God could work in any other way, and their reasoning is "if this is not essential, then why would we be living like this?" So the system has an inbuilt immune system that resists change, favoring the status quo. It looks as if it is destined to whither and die over time. Good points, jo. If we are truly moving closer to the love of God, then it shouldn't be a sacrifice. It may well entail sacrifice in the process, but the rewards should outweigh the price. (My yoke is easy ...) If we don't have or get that feeling then maybe we're doing something wrong. And you can tell ... there are workers who love the work, love the ministry. And then there are those who carry the burden of trying to be perfect people. Trying to win God's favour "by foregoing marriage, career, and a settled lifestyle", by separation and by denial. Not that those things are wrong. But which one's the cart and which one's the horse? The love of the Gospel, the message of Christ, the hope of salvation.
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Post by JO on Jan 28, 2010 2:33:59 GMT -5
JO, I dont want to misunderstand your comment above; however, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the above statement. So before I respond, I wanted to ask if you could be more explicit as to exactly what your "problem" is with TTT? Or could you state it in some other terms? Thanx, CK Cherie, I applaud your efforts to document and compile the historical record. My concern is largely that your site links to other more radical anti-2x2 sites.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 3:07:33 GMT -5
I did quote supporting verses in my New Covenant web site. But in the Foundation Church I was more interested in the manner of their worship. This example needs little interpretation. References to home worship and 2x2 itinerant ministers are found in the New Testament. They form what one could call these days a "hidden history." I know they are hidden because I know religious people, even in the clergy, who have never encountered them. Shades of William Irvine
Cherie asked that sly question on her profile, "Ask: Who was Wm Irvine?." Well, Irvine was one man (amongst others) who believed in the example of Christ and his church. That Irvine was a man does not diminish his message, nor excuse those who rubbish it.
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Post by mountain on Jan 28, 2010 5:21:38 GMT -5
I did quote supporting verses in my New Covenant web site. But in the Foundation Church I was more interested in the manner of their worship. This example needs little interpretation.References to home worship and 2x2 itinerant ministers are found in the New Testament. They form what one could call these days a "hidden history."I know they are hidden because I know religious people, even in the clergy, who have never encountered them. Shades of William Irvine Cherie asked that sly question on her profile, "Ask: Who was Wm Irvine?." Well, Irvine was one man (amongst others) who believed in the example of Christ and his church. That Irvine was a man does not diminish his message, nor excuse those who rubbish it.Roger, you used to be a farmer so I will use a farming related analogy to try and get my point across. If you were still a farmer and the Regional Consultant of DrumMuster called at your farm offering you advice on the best ways to dispose of your empty chemical fertiliser drums, would you put importance on the method this person went about delivering his message, or would you place importance on the message itself? For those not in the know, DrumMuster is a national programme in Australia for the collection and re-cycling of empty, cleaned, non-returnable crop production and on farm animal health containers. Is it the message that's important, or the method of delivery? Must the message be delivered in one sole prescribed way and no other, or can it be delivered in many ways and by many methods?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 6:07:49 GMT -5
A farmer who is an exe knows all the tricks: "Yes, but WHO really started Drummaster?" "I have been reading the TTAD website!" (the truth about Drummaster) "I heard of one Drummaster consultant who was charged with sexual misconduct! Why should I listen to you?" "I read a book about the secrets of Drummaster!" "Do you REALLY know the ambitions of the Drummaster CEO?" "Bet you don't know of other, more open and honest recycling groups?" "What exactly are you making in this business?" "I bet your mother has a picture of a Drummaster employee on her mantlepiece. That's idolatry you know!" "Can't there be some other way of delivering your service than coming to my property?" "One statistic on your website was wrong, therefor everything you say is wrong." "You got lost finding my place, that proves you don't know where you are going!" "You know what the Greek word for recycling is?" "What you got against drums?"
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Post by mountain on Jan 28, 2010 9:19:18 GMT -5
A farmer who is an exe knows all the tricks: "Yes, but WHO really started Drummaster?" "I have been reading the TTAD website!" (the truth about Drummaster) "I heard of one Drummaster consultant who was charged with sexual misconduct! Why should I listen to you?" "I read a book about the secrets of Drummaster!" "Do you REALLY know the ambitions of the Drummaster CEO?" "Bet you don't know of other, more open and honest recycling groups?" "What exactly are you making in this business?" "I bet your mother has a picture of a Drummaster employee on her mantlepiece. That's idolatry you know!" "Can't there be some other way of delivering your service than coming to my property?" "One statistic on your website was wrong, therefor everything you say is wrong." "You got lost finding my place, that proves you don't know where you are going!" "You know what the Greek word for recycling is?" "What you got against drums?" Roger, are you saying that the Regional Consultant of DrumMuster has no credibility? Should he along with a colleague, sell all, become homeless, before their message is true?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 28, 2010 9:53:45 GMT -5
JO wrote:
JO: What are the names of the particular websites that fit your description of being "full of hatred for anything 2x2"?
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Post by What Hat on Jan 28, 2010 10:39:07 GMT -5
JO wrote: JO: What are the names of the particular websites that fit your description of being "full of hatred for anything 2x2"? When you first see some of this material on the web it all blurs together. At least that was my experience. The "look and feel" of the sites is very similar, the fonts, the tone of the language. Later you recognize that each of the 3 major sites (TTT, TLT, VOT) has its own, uh, editorial policies. I have on occasion referred people to the article on "two by twos" at - www.religioustolerance.org/chr_2x2.htm. I used to refer people to wikipedia but it has a decided mainstream/ evangelical bias since "Project Christianity" took over all articles related to religion and Christianity.
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Post by lin on Jan 28, 2010 10:49:47 GMT -5
What :Thanks for sending reference to that site. I like the tenor of the site factual,but not touting a banner of praise for the author.
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Post by JO on Jan 28, 2010 13:15:56 GMT -5
JO wrote: JO: What are the names of the particular websites that fit your description of being "full of hatred for anything 2x2"? Cherie, I don't want to be drawn into a review of anti2x2 websites. I agree with you that the history of our church needs to be common knowledge so I'm happy that historical documents are assembled on the web. What I'm not happy about is the "get out of that abusive cult" tone that quickly becomes apparent when I go to your website. Here's an example: I click on the "testimonies" tab: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_index/index.phpThen I click "The Process of Role Exit" which takes me to: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_articles/roleexitb.phpThis tells me how to write my life story, and asks if I am interested in having my life story or exit letter published on the Veterans of Truth Website. I click on that link and this is what I see: Are you one of the "Walking Wounded" members of the 2x2 sect who feels sick & tired of what's underneath the polished veneer and deadly cover-ups of the workers & want to bring the "REAL" truth to the table? Jesus said: "I am the way, the Truth, and the life." John 14:6
Do you want to be liberated from man created rules that hold you captive? God's Gift of Grace frees us from bad leaders who are not men of merit and virtue but men who love preeminence over others. They crush freedom with bondage & suspicion.Can you explain to me why as a member of the fellowship I would ever want to point my fellow church members to such propaganda?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jan 28, 2010 13:51:02 GMT -5
Good objective illustration JO. I think that's the tone Lin and others mention. Pretty plain to see - as is how connected the various sites are. Who's the founder of this movement? Parker? Cherie? A wiki page on the founding, doctrine, methods and practices of this apparent counter advocacy movement might be appropriate?
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Post by lin on Jan 28, 2010 14:00:13 GMT -5
Good objective illustration JO. I think that's the tone Lin and others mention. Pretty plain to see - as is how connected the various sites are. Who's the founder of this movement? Parker? Cherie? A wiki page on the founding, doctrine, methods and practices of this apparent counter advocacy movement might be appropriate? Good idea Jesse! Maybe Jason could help us write this up.
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