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Post by sharon on Oct 7, 2009 7:17:11 GMT -5
NO WHERE in my gratitude to his efforts did I say HE KNEW MORE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS than we do! Do YOU know what your beliefs are? My point in this, IF we cannot be ready with an answer...then we're far from the goal that Jesus asks us to be. The Bible tells us so! How would he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't already know what they are? And how could he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't know more than those who he was trying to encourage? Yes I know what my beliefs are How can one give an answer to one who believes what they know is superiour? That is the position you have put him in. Kiwi, You'd already refused to give an answer to what and why you believe...so don't put that on my back.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 7, 2009 11:20:55 GMT -5
The reason there is no written doctrine is simple. If you don't have anything written down you are free to change anything at our discretion. Which is what is so often the case, especially this one. Yes of course Thomas why didn't I think of that ;D Actually, Thomas has indeed pointed out another superb benefit of not writing things down. Every entity...even a church...needs to be able to grow in knowledge. Think how many times the Catholic church has had to revise its doctrine. Ithascome, you say this lack of firm doctrine gives ultimate power to the workers. I feel just the opposite. I wouldn't want anybody commanding what I am to believe...I want to experience God for myself, and share openly, and grow in understanding. I don't want no piece of paper.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 12:50:39 GMT -5
THE 50 QUESTION GAME AGAIN!!!
you will have to be the judge of that... I have said a lot in this thread... go back and read it. No... but all will have to correct the problem.. or it will not be fixed.
My children are old enough to make decisions for themself... but yes we do/did go to church... many churches. you have been called a cult... but I will have to let God be the judge on that. I am a Brother in Christ He is right. That is something for you to determine... if it comes from God or not... I believe in God. not sure not sure Ask God because I have Jesus Christ in my life. "God's grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners" I can not save you.
..................................................... what ever is best for you... good thing you did not live in Alberta Canada.. maybe you would think the opposite again.
Well that is fine... then no paper it shall be.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 12:59:11 GMT -5
How would he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't already know what they are? And how could he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't know more than those who he was trying to encourage? Yes I know what my beliefs are How can one give an answer to one who believes what they know is superiour? That is the position you have put him in. Do I ? It is if it is used to push anothers agenda. Yes how rude ;D Not a problem sweetie
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 13:02:24 GMT -5
How would he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't already know what they are? And how could he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't know more than those who he was trying to encourage? Yes I know what my beliefs are How can one give an answer to one who believes what they know is superiour? That is the position you have put him in. Kiwi, You'd already refused to give an answer to what and why you believe...so don't put that on my back. Nah nah everybody on here knows what I believe I I would'nt dear burden you dear
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 13:19:26 GMT -5
Sorry but don't have an elephants memory So I will have to take that as a yes? Who apart from a few is saying there is a problem that needs to be corrected when a very high majority within the fellowship have and see no problem? And how do you get on with the differing statements of belief? Because you and I know they will not be the same. So if you wanted God to be the judge why did you find it necsessary to bring it up? People can call it a cult until the cows come home for all I care, but one has to remember an answer has to be given for all that is written and spoken that is not within the spirit of the Lamb and me being no acception. Does a brother determen a brother unchristian? ..................................................... what ever is best for you... good thing you did not live in Alberta Canada.. maybe you would think the opposite again. Well that is fine... then no paper it shall be.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 13:20:40 GMT -5
THE 50 QUESTION GAME AGAIN!!!Don't make statements then
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 13:24:56 GMT -5
It is OK... I will answer your questions.. this is how we learn. as I said before.. ask god for understanding... But if they preach Jesus... that is what I need to hear. as I said before I feel called by God to do so. It is not a matter of doing that.. it is a matter of being a true brother. A true brother will warn his brother of approaching danger. Matt. 18:15 Here is are two poems that pretty much answers your question about that and it is the way I feel too. Brother's Keeper
Now the plummer's got a drip in his spigot The mechanic's got a clank in his car And the preacher's thinking thoughts that are wicked And the lover's got a lonely heart My friends ain't the way I wish they were They are just the way they are
And I will be my brother's keeper Not the one who judges him I won't despise him for his weakness I won't regard him for his strength I won't take away his freedom I will help him learn to stand And I will, I will be my brother's keeper
Now this roof has got a few missing shingles But at least we got ourselves a roof And they say that she's a fallen angel I wonder if she recalls when she last flew There's no point in pointing fingers Unless you're pointing to the truth
And I will, I will be my brother's keeper
.............................................. The Truth
Sometime it is hard to face the truth. It requires a little change. I would hope that someone would care enough for me.... to do the same. If I believe in Jesus I will have a heart that is soft enough to receive Him The Truth will never part.
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Post by sharon on Oct 7, 2009 15:47:24 GMT -5
Kiwi, I doubt serious that everybody on TMB knows exactly what you DO believe...you've never spoken anything in such a manner as to state what your believe...you have usually been negative in regards to others' remarks.....so I'm not sure that tells what you belief but more of what you don't agree to or about! Unless, of course, you're just disagreeable???
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 7, 2009 22:28:38 GMT -5
No. 1: What is the F&W's belief about God the Father?
Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your beliefs?
PLEASE NOTE: The following statements (A thru F) are SOLELY about God:
NOTE: Statements regarding the trinity, Godhead, triune God, one-in-three persons, etc. statements are not included in A thru F. Selections for these are at the end (G thru P).[/color]
Names of God are not within the scope of this study.
As an independent, nondenominational church assuming no name… A. We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable. God created the world out of nothing and by his power He sustains all He has created.
B. We believe in one eternal God, who created the universe and all that is in it. We believe that this God is active in history, guiding and teaching his people.
C. We believe in the one true and living God, the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer and Ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, and unchangeable. God reigns over all of His universe with providential care. He is all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, all-wise, and always present. He is fatherly in attitude toward all men; but is a spiritual Father to those who have become children of God through Jesus Christ.
D. We believe there is one true and living God, who is the Most High, Lord of Heaven and Earth. God is supreme, subject to none and absolutely independent. God is eternal, unchangeable (immutable), all-powerful (omnipotent), all-knowing (omniscient), and all-wise. God is infinite (knows no boundaries) and is always present (omnipresent). God is holy, just, loving, merciful, good and gracious. God is the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer, and Ruler of all things. God is sovereign, a law unto himself and whatever He does is right. God is self-existent and has no beginning or end. God is self-sufficient, has life in Himself and needs nothing. God is faithful, does not lie, keeps His word and promises.
E. We teach that God the Father orders and disposes all things according to His own purpose and grace. He is the Creator of all things, and is Father to all men, but He is spiritual Father only to believers. As the only absolute and omnipotent Ruler in the universe, He is sovereign in creation, providence, and redemption. He continually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and events. He saves from sin all who come to Him through Jesus Christ. He adopts as His own all those who come to Him, and He becomes, upon adoption, Father to His own.
F. We believe in the one true and living God, the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer, and Ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, and is revealed to us as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following statements address beliefs concerning the trinity, godhead, triune God, one-in-three persons, etc.
Concerning God, we acknowledge OR we deny that:[/b][/color]
G. The Godhead exists in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three Persons are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections.
H. There is but one living and true God, an infinite, all knowing Spirit, perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—each equally deserving worship and obedience.
J. There is one true God, eternally existing in three Persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These are equal and are one God.
K. There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; each of whom possesses equally all the attributes of Deity and the characteristics of personality.
L. There is but one living and true God, an infinite, all knowing Spirit, perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—each equally deserving worship and obedience.
M. There is one triune God, eternally existing in three beings - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; co-eternal in being, co-identical in nature, co-equal in power and glory and having the same attributes and perfection.
N. There is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
O. That within the Holy Trinity, there is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
P. The Godhead eternally exists in three persons–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit–and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence, and obedience.
Subjects covered in Statement of Belief: 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #125 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #3 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #196 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-268 5. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 295 6. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662
The doctrines below will follow soon... 7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 23:28:17 GMT -5
GOOD Cherie!!! Time to get us back on track.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2009 0:28:49 GMT -5
Here's my effort toward a sincere and honest assessment of the majority view within the Fellowship regarding key doctrines.
God * God is not a trinity * There is only one God, the Father * Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is divine but never to be called "God" * The Holy Spirit is an impersonal force that emanates from God and Christ
Scripture * Strong belief in solo scriptura which is not the same as sola scriptura - the former emphasises the totality of knowledge about the truth exists solely in the Scriptures and that no additional understanding or clarification can come forth from any source outside of the Scriptures. * Emphasis on the practical component of the New Testament * Many professing people - particularly Gen Xers - deny that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Many believe the Scriptures contain mistakes. Whenever there is doubt about some element of Scripture, the ultimate authority are the practices and behaviour of Western professing people. * Workers are authoritative teachers of the Bible, but not the only authoritative teachers. Some believe they are fallible, others hold the Workers as inerrant teachers.
Sin * There is no original sin. Human beings are born innocent and are schooled in sin by the environment and a wilful human nature. * Human nature must be erased and replaced with a divine nature. * Strong emphasis on free will - both sin and salvation are voluntary choices.
Sacraments * There are three sacraments * Baptism by immersion - does not of itself revoke sins * The emblems (Lord's Supper) - which are only signifiers, but many maintain are also conduits of grace, and that by eating sins are removed. * The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry
Church practice * Church buildings are markers of false religiosity * Public collections of money do not belong in worship and must be avoided * Organ and piano musical accompanyment only * Unrehearsed preaching - no notes must accompany the minister
Salvation * Salvation is never assured until after death * It is possible to lose salvation at any time * Jesus "makes it possible" for us to live a righteous life * Jesus atones for sins, but does not justify - justification is dependant on our actions * Justification and sanctification are the same thing * We are justified by a life of ceaseless self-denial and personal sacrifice * We are not saved by grace alone through faith alone * Grace is power that God grants the believer to accomplish good works * Salvation is largely dependant on persevering in the church to the end * Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church
This is my honest and heartfelt assessment of what is a majority opinion from my experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and I do not promise that this account is accurate in all places, at all times.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 8, 2009 1:11:28 GMT -5
WOW!!!
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Post by fred on Oct 8, 2009 4:05:03 GMT -5
I think you have summarised well what I understand to be majority view, GIC. But then we live on the same little isand !
I do wonder what you mean by 'the practical component' of the NT, as there are some practical aspects that most would seem to avoid.
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2009 7:10:41 GMT -5
I think you have summarised well what I understand to be majority view, GIC. But then we live on the same little isand ! I do wonder what you mean by 'the practical component' of the NT, as there are some practical aspects that most would seem to avoid. I think we'd find GIC's summary pretty much the same in No. America and Canada...with the workers bearing power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 8:09:23 GMT -5
Here's my effort toward a sincere and honest assessment of the majority view within the Fellowship regarding key doctrines. God* God is not a trinity * There is only one God, the Father * Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is divine but never to be called "God" * The Holy Spirit is an impersonal force that emanates from God and Christ Scripture* Strong belief in solo scriptura which is not the same as sola scriptura - the former emphasises the totality of knowledge about the truth exists solely in the Scriptures and that no additional understanding or clarification can come forth from any source outside of the Scriptures. * Emphasis on the practical component of the New Testament * Many professing people - particularly Gen Xers - deny that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Many believe the Scriptures contain mistakes. Whenever there is doubt about some element of Scripture, the ultimate authority are the practices and behaviour of Western professing people. * Workers are authoritative teachers of the Bible, but not the only authoritative teachers. Some believe they are fallible, others hold the Workers as inerrant teachers. Sin* There is no original sin. Human beings are born innocent and are schooled in sin by the environment and a wilful human nature. * Human nature must be erased and replaced with a divine nature. * Strong emphasis on free will - both sin and salvation are voluntary choices. Sacraments* There are three sacraments * Baptism by immersion - does not of itself revoke sins * The emblems (Lord's Supper) - which are only signifiers, but many maintain are also conduits of grace, and that by eating sins are removed. * The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry Church practice* Church buildings are markers of false religiosity * Public collections of money do not belong in worship and must be avoided * Organ and piano musical accompanyment only * Unrehearsed preaching - no notes must accompany the minister Salvation* Salvation is never assured until after death * It is possible to lose salvation at any time * Jesus "makes it possible" for us to live a righteous life * Jesus atones for sins, but does not justify - justification is dependant on our actions * Justification and sanctification are the same thing * We are justified by a life of ceaseless self-denial and personal sacrifice * We are not saved by grace alone through faith alone * Grace is power that God grants the believer to accomplish good works * Salvation is largely dependant on persevering in the church to the end * Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church This is my honest and heartfelt assessment of what is a majority opinion from my experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and I do not promise that this account is accurate in all places, at all times. That sounds pretty much the way I was taught growing up. Thanks Jason. Scott
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 8, 2009 9:15:32 GMT -5
Thank you GIC and Nate for your participation.
CK
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Post by someguy on Oct 8, 2009 10:16:40 GMT -5
Here's my effort toward a sincere and honest assessment of the majority view within the Fellowship regarding key doctrines. God* God is not a trinity * There is only one God, the Father * Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is divine but never to be called "God" * The Holy Spirit is an impersonal force that emanates from God and Christ Scripture* Strong belief in solo scriptura which is not the same as sola scriptura - the former emphasises the totality of knowledge about the truth exists solely in the Scriptures and that no additional understanding or clarification can come forth from any source outside of the Scriptures. * Emphasis on the practical component of the New Testament * Many professing people - particularly Gen Xers - deny that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Many believe the Scriptures contain mistakes. Whenever there is doubt about some element of Scripture, the ultimate authority are the practices and behaviour of Western professing people. * Workers are authoritative teachers of the Bible, but not the only authoritative teachers. Some believe they are fallible, others hold the Workers as inerrant teachers. Sin* There is no original sin. Human beings are born innocent and are schooled in sin by the environment and a wilful human nature. * Human nature must be erased and replaced with a divine nature. * Strong emphasis on free will - both sin and salvation are voluntary choices. Sacraments* There are three sacraments * Baptism by immersion - does not of itself revoke sins * The emblems (Lord's Supper) - which are only signifiers, but many maintain are also conduits of grace, and that by eating sins are removed. * The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry Church practice* Church buildings are markers of false religiosity * Public collections of money do not belong in worship and must be avoided * Organ and piano musical accompanyment only * Unrehearsed preaching - no notes must accompany the minister Salvation* Salvation is never assured until after death * It is possible to lose salvation at any time * Jesus "makes it possible" for us to live a righteous life * Jesus atones for sins, but does not justify - justification is dependant on our actions * Justification and sanctification are the same thing * We are justified by a life of ceaseless self-denial and personal sacrifice * We are not saved by grace alone through faith alone * Grace is power that God grants the believer to accomplish good works * Salvation is largely dependant on persevering in the church to the end * Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church This is my honest and heartfelt assessment of what is a majority opinion from my experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and I do not promise that this account is accurate in all places, at all times. wow GIC very accurate and complete. Pretty much what I have witnessed all my life here in Canada.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 10:57:42 GMT -5
I agree. GIC is portraying the amalgam of beliefs fairly accurately. I think his list could use a bit of finetuning, but nothing substantial. Good work GIC.
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gells
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Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 11:38:42 GMT -5
This is correct in a lot of aspects, but very incorrect in others. I think that for most things to be correct, one cannot use words such as (always, never, absolutely, impossible, only, all, none.) Obviously this is not true for everything, such as when we are speaking of God. Saying things like this, however, "Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church" is rather ignorant, and not true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 11:42:31 GMT -5
Of course not every friend or worker believes that, and GIC will be the first to agree. However, the point of the exercise is to portray the overall character of beliefs amongst F&Ws and on that basis, the statement is very accurate.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 12:04:51 GMT -5
Well I know several overseers who have told me the exact opposite.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 12:28:03 GMT -5
Hi gells! Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the churchWell I know several overseers who have told me the exact opposite. So... My take on that statement is that you know SEVERAL overseers who have told you: Salvation is just as possible for those outside of the truth fellowship as it is for those that are in." Is that a pretty fair way to say that? Could you share who those several overseers are? Thanks! Scott
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 12:41:29 GMT -5
Well I know several overseers who have told me the exact opposite. You may want to reconsider your statement. No overseer would tell you the "opposite". The opposite would be that we consider all declared Christians as equal brothers and sisters and all would be welcome to participate in our fellowship meetings without going to gospel meetings and professing in a meeting. There is damage control going on in private these days. Many friends and workers with respond with "oh we don't judge", or maybe say "yes it's possible" (if a person has never met a worker yet). Usually that kind of talk quells the questioner who feels satisfied that the workers truly don't judge other believers. When we hear some preaching from the platform of gratitude for what non-meeting Christians are doing, or share some uplifting messages from a preacher outside the meetings, then we will start to believe that we accept other Christians. Until then, not even close.....
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 12:57:59 GMT -5
Kiwi, I doubt serious that everybody on TMB knows exactly what you DO believe...you've never spoken anything in such a manner as to state what your believe...you have usually been negative in regards to others' remarks.....so I'm not sure that tells what you belief but more of what you don't agree to or about! Unless, of course, you're just disagreeable??? I have mentioned many a time what I believe. To love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, spirit and strenght and my neighbour as myself
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:01:11 GMT -5
I think you have summarised well what I understand to be majority view, GIC. But then we live on the same little isand ! I do wonder what you mean by 'the practical component' of the NT, as there are some practical aspects that most would seem to avoid. I think we'd find GIC's summary pretty much the same in No. America and Canada...with the workers bearing power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found. How can the workers bear power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found?
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 13:03:41 GMT -5
How can the workers bear power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found? That is an excellent question!!! How can they, and why do they? Scott
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:04:34 GMT -5
Saying things like this, however, "Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church" is rather ignorant, and not true. I think this is very true and we have been told by our head worker we are not to make such a judgement and I tend to agree with Him.
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