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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 5, 2009 23:52:34 GMT -5
I find this thread depressing. Why turn hundreds of thousands of people into unthinking, unfeeling robots? Let people be individuals, believe what they believe, instead of trying to conform to a single belief system.
Just as an obvious example, we all know some in the f&w way will never be convinced this is the only way. Others will never be convinced it is not. So what? Can you imagine going to a discussion group where everybody agrees? What's the point of going? Differences in belief don't HAVE to impede fellowship, they should rather enrich it, and besides, in my experience what a person believes has absolutely zip/nadda/NOTHING to do with experiencing the Spirit in a fellowship meeting.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 0:05:18 GMT -5
dietcoke there are other reasons for having a belief statement... it is not just for members... it is for someone that would like to visit your church... you tell them upfront what the basics of your beliefs are... if they like what they read they will come and ask more questions.
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Post by open mind on Oct 6, 2009 0:14:01 GMT -5
They disagree about relationships in heaven. Some believe that they will recognize each other in heaven; others argue that everyone will have new, celestial bodies "and will not recognize or even want to recognize our friends and loved ones." We heard in the Gospel meeting on Sunday that there are no male or female in heaven so if we are sick of our wife we only have to wait till we get to heaven to be rid of her....(quoted from the worker)
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 0:31:15 GMT -5
Now thats a thought... I am sure everyone had a little laugh over that one.... but for someone that might be having marital problems...
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 6, 2009 1:11:38 GMT -5
I find this thread depressing. Why turn hundreds of thousands of people into unthinking, unfeeling robots? Let people be individuals, believe what they believe, instead of trying to conform to a single belief system.Hmm... A statement of beliefs by a church doesn't mean that all church members are unthinking or unfeeling. It is about the focus of the church, and of course individuals still have their own thoughts on various subjects. It's like saying that if a church has a statement of beliefs then everyone is going to think the same, vote the same etc. That's not how it is at all, and while the truth fellowship claims no 'rules' or doctrine you can see that many have no clue WHAT the focus of the church is on. Is it on outward appearance. YES... to many who attend. Is it focused on the homeless workers and meetings in the home? YES to many who attend. How do you explain your church to an 'outsider'? I sure couldn't when I was growing up. I really didn't have any answers I could give others that asked me. I would just mumble some rather vague information about meeting in homes and workers that stayed with us and preached in grange halls and auditoriums, BUT I couldn't tell them about Jesus because I really didn't have a clue what he meant in my life..... Scott
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 1:45:59 GMT -5
I think that was pretty much the same for me. But after I left the 2x2s and years later I felt that it was time that I did try to figure it all out for myself. So I started looking on-line at what other people believed and I found it very helpful when I would find a link to a church that would have a belief statement. This is more what it is all about... if you have something special... and the F&WS think they do... they should tell the world about it... let their light shine. The nice thing also about churches that have websites is that you can find out when and where they meet... many times even a phone number will be provided or an e-mail address where you can contact someone and get even more information. Really what I am trying to say is... it is not as bad as you would think... it is a good thing... and you might just be able to contact a seeking person that you would have never been able to meet on the street. Most of the time people will e-mail you a lot sooner than they will by phone. So it could be a very good tool for the workers.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 3:03:30 GMT -5
If that be the case than why go to meetings/church at all? I believe that... I just do not believe that I have to be a member of a church. I can have a relationship with God without all the frustration. But if I do go to a church (and I often do) I would want to know upfront what it is that they believe. If they have a written doctrine or at least a belief statement I can decide if I want to fellowship with them. I am not aware of any other church group that refuses to have something written to give to people if they should wish to visit. Most churches have a website these days. The website is not so much for the members but it is also to tells people what they believe. These websites tell people when their meeting time is and what days they meet. Why should we? When all you have done is bring into question every ones faith who you disagree with and caused division. You are no different than those you accuse of not accepting you and your ideas. Frankly I would have no desire to meet with those who's belief is different than mine. Who cares what others do and believe? We believe and do what we do and we are not looking for you approval and we certainly haven't asked you believe what we do nor to worship how we do. So you may strain and strain as much as you like but you an't going to make any noticeable difference. Again so what?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 3:05:34 GMT -5
If that be the case than why go to meetings/church at all? I believe that... I just do not believe that I have to be a member of a church. I can have a relationship with God without all the frustration. To answer your question, I go to meetings because I love the meetings, I love the people, and I love God. I think that fellowship is an integral part of serving the Lord, so we can keep ourselves on track. Whenever I do not go to meetings, I feel rather lost and without direction. As it has been mentioned before, "where two or more are gathered in my name." I truly believe that God dwells in the meetings. I believe that it keeps me on track to continue to do what I need to do. The first time I brought my fiancee to the meetings, I hadn't gone in quite some time. He was raised catholic, and was attending a different church at the time. He told me after meeting, that he could feel God's presence, and that he needed to continue to go whether I did or not. That was very refreshing. To answer your question pink. Yes the meeting knows that we live together, and that we are planning a wedding soon. We recently moved to the area. We are rather broke, so it just makes sense to combine expenses, rather than paying two of everything. We have a unique situation, as everyone does, based on past and current events. Every situation needs to be approached differently, as I had stated before. You keep on going girl our hearts and prayers are with you.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 8:55:04 GMT -5
I never said I would want to meet with you .... I do not care for exclusive people such as yourself kiwi... you do not seem to have love for your neighbor. You sure do not show love for me and I am a Christian... I believe in Jesus... I love Him... so what is your problem.
This is why the 2x2s are not growing... some of them do not care about people.. they are content to be to themselves.
Even when you show them how they could grow this is the attitude that you get from them.
But Thank God KIWI you are not the only 2x2... I am sure there are some that have Christian love... I hope so... Sharon seems to have it in her heart. You even encourage others to follow your anti-Christian viewpoint May God help you.
I PMed Scott last night and told him I was beginning to get burned out... might need a break soon... this is why... I get tired of these waves of crap that people throw in my direction. If people really knew me they would realize that I am just a Christian that is trying to do the best I can just like they are. KIWI I hope that you will some day learn what it means to have brotherly love.... not just for the people you meet with... no man is an Island. Friendship Love and Truth are the essential Keys to Life, without them no one has a purpose to live. The closer I get to death here on this earth the more I realize that. You can live in your own exclusive way and never realize the purpose for Jesus coming to this earth.. that man may be saved an have eternal life. I hope and pray that all Will get to know Jesus and learn to love him as I do. I will continue to love you... it does not mater if you do not love me... because I am working out my own salvation.. and if you want it too you will indeed learn why God sent his only begotten Son.. that all will have eternal Life. Thank you and may God Bless you all even you KIWI.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 9:37:48 GMT -5
You even encourage others to follow your anti-Christian viewpoint May God help you
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 9:44:50 GMT -5
Read my disclaimer..
"When I use the word YOU .. I may be talking about the 2x2/fellowship not you.. If the shoe fits wear it!"
I believe in the Fatherhood of God, and the Brotherhood of man. I believe in Friendship, Love and Truth as basic guides to the ultimate destiny of all mankind.
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Post by sharon on Oct 6, 2009 9:57:31 GMT -5
Nathan, you're one of the few who perhaps knows what Spirit-led means...honestly....I sat and listened to a number of testimonies yesterday and wondered what really nearly all of them believed....Same people, same testimonies, time after time...but I'm left wondering what it is they really believe. I'm saddened more and more and more.....I want every human being to know Jesus is our Saviour and I want them to Love the Lord our God with all their hearts, with all their minds, withall their souls and with all their strength. And to love their neighbors as themself. It really is a light burden and an easy yoke! ~~ Thanks, Sharon... I hope and pray you will continue to encourage the people in your meetings, those whom you met and others in our fellowship to be more Spirit-led which is the only thing to do.
There is a great danger in following man all the time one day he(WI) might go off the beaten path and you will go with him if your eyes are focus ONLY on him and NOT on Jesus. Jesus said if the blind leads the blind both shall fall into the ditch.
I love what John the baptist told to his own disciples when he knew Jesus was the Lamb of God he said, "For Jesus must Increase and I must decrease."
After we professed we looked up to the workers a lot but Leo Stancliff encouraged us to follow Jesus and depend on Him on all things, study God's words, and having more private time with God.I appreciate workers that DO teach to look to Jesus, the ones who are still carnal and needing the milk of the word and that's what so many of us are...still carnal because we're like babies and cannot walk without the workers. I'm not sure how much of it is "flattery" to get the workers attention or not, but even IF it is, then it still is carnal and only the milk of the word helps them. I think perhaps over 75 percent of the membership is so dependent on the workers that they perhaps classify as still carnal and needing only the milk of the word. And that alone cripples the fellowship....we can put forth the effort to help others but if they want to be clinging to the workers in power then there is no way we can help them. We can pray for them and that about does it, God can do the impossible and He can see the future and He knows just exactly IF those who are clinging to another human are ever going to get to clinging to the Saviour. It is terribly sad, but having known many of the first converts and their zeal and ability to lean on the Saviour and compare them to what is the majority in the fellowship today, it is shocking at the difference. I kid no one on that. I think of Evan Jones from Australia, how he always preached the whole Bible it seemed and it was always about Jesus.....I was amazed how he could tie that all together that way....and he never would hardly speak of his own work in Australia and New Zealand....the hosting workers would often needle him to talk about it, but he never would....finally one day a sister worker had needled him for several days and he told her..."Get your companion and I will meet you both back here in the dining tent before the evening mtg. since I don't have to speak. But I won't give it much time." And that's what happened, about 15/20 mins. and he got up and left. He didn't spend much time telling anything, but he did answer a few of their questions...some question he just skimmed over is what I heard. That is a workers who do not want glory for what they do.....
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Post by ilylo on Oct 6, 2009 9:57:41 GMT -5
Why turn hundreds of thousands of people into unthinking, unfeeling robots? Let people be individuals, believe what they believe, instead of trying to conform to a single belief system. Sounds like the very thing 2x2ism does to people. Good one, dc.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 9:59:57 GMT -5
Read my disclaimer.. "When I use the word YOU .. I may be talking about the 2x2/fellowship not you.. If the shoe fits wear it!" I believe in the Fatherhood of God, and the Brotherhood of man. I believe in Friendship, Love and Truth as basic guides to the ultimate destiny of all mankind. Well he was encouraging me to keep believing what I'm believing. And that is not anti-Christian. I already read your disclaimer.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 6, 2009 10:01:35 GMT -5
So... what are you believing?
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Post by sharon on Oct 6, 2009 10:06:16 GMT -5
I find this thread depressing. Why turn hundreds of thousands of people into unthinking, unfeeling robots? Let people be individuals, believe what they believe, instead of trying to conform to a single belief system. Just as an obvious example, we all know some in the f&w way will never be convinced this is the only way. Others will never be convinced it is not. So what? Can you imagine going to a discussion group where everybody agrees? What's the point of going? Differences in belief don't HAVE to impede fellowship, they should rather enrich it, and besides, in my experience what a person believes has absolutely zip/nadda/NOTHING to do with experiencing the Spirit in a fellowship meeting. DC, for some reasons there are people who need to be handfed and hand led....not to say they can not do it otherwise, it's just their needy person is all. There are some that saying the "what IF it is the only true way"? Some are being cautious but I think God will lead them in the right direction when He sees it necessary. What said some time ago, on some other thread that he was getting the impression that NO church or denomination would win the prize as being God's choice over another. I think he has something there. I still appeal to God to lead me to the church affiliation that 'pleases Him the most' and I'm led to keep going to the mtgs. I know part of it is to help those who are struggling with the knowledge of the history and CSA and sex exploits within the work...the excommunications are also hurtful to those who want the church to be loving and merciful. As to the Spirit being in the mtg.? Seems to me IF we take the Holy Spirit with us then He'll be there regardless....I believe it is a personal responsibility to take the Holy Spirit with us.
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gells
Senior Member
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 10:08:46 GMT -5
As I stated before, I believe that what matters the most is my relationship with God, and following what Jesus taught. Read my post.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 6, 2009 10:09:22 GMT -5
I PMed Scott last night and told him I was beginning to get burned out... might need a break soon... this is why... I get tired of these waves of crap that people throw in my direction. If people really knew me they would realize that I am just a Christian that is trying to do the best I can just like they are. Aw, we all know that, relax and drop any agendas that are putting pressure on you. Enjoy the stimulating conversation, rejoice in the joy others find in God even when it disagrees with your doctrine, and most of all, stand in awe of the mystery of God, since none of us REALLY have a clue what we're talking about.
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Post by sharon on Oct 6, 2009 10:17:29 GMT -5
"I PMed Scott last night and told him I was beginning to get burned out... might need a break soon... this is why... I get tired of these waves of crap that people throw in my direction. If people really knew me they would realize that I am just a Christian that is trying to do the best I can just like they are. KIWI I hope that you will some day learn what it means to have brotherly love.... not just for the people you meet with... no man is an Island. Friendship Love and Truth are the essential Keys to Life, without them no one has a purpose to live. The closer I get to death here on this earth the more I realize that. You can live in your own exclusive way and never realize the purpose for Jesus coming to this earth.. that man may be saved an have eternal life. I hope and pray that all Will get to know Jesus and learn to love him as I do. I will continue to love you... it does not mater if you do not love me... because I am working out my own salvation.. and if you want it too you will indeed learn why God sent his only begotten Son.. that all will have eternal Life. Thank you and may God Bless you all even you KIWI. "
Ithascome, I understand fully the frustrations and discouragement that comes from the zeal you have and the efforts to share that zeal and love and it seeming to not get anywhere...but think of this, sometimes when someone is opposing at the moment, down the road an experience will bring back to their mind what you tried to say or do....then it becomes their's. We cannot always know when our offered help works for it doesn't always work at the moment and often meets opposition, but it is also true that down the road that which we've offered will become very much their own.
Thank you for your efforts to encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are. I think it is necessary for us to do that whether we ever write them or not....but it will help the fellowship to strengthen and hopefully grow in the right direction to the Lord and Saviour!
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 10:50:17 GMT -5
Then if you read my disclaimer you would realize that there are some ... perhaps many within the 2x2/fellowship that I believe that truly are my Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I believe that my own parents are under God's wing. Now that they are gone... for me to think otherwise would simply be too painful.
If you will look very carefully at what you wrote [gells] you will see the order of importance that you have given to things... notice that God was given third place... you just do not see this mindset in many other churches... God is given first place. I am really not trying to hurt you... I am just trying to help you see what others see.... but you did see it after Sharon pointed it out to you.... so that is a good thing. May we all continue to have a better relationship with God/Jesus.
sorry I can not do that... the reason why is because I have seen far too many of God's children that have been damaged by the 2x2s exclusive methods. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to understand what I am talking about if you were someone on the outside of your fellowship looking in. When I married my wife that I have now been with for over 30 years now.. and I brought her to meetings.. I wanted her to profess.. I for the first time noticed how exclusive the 2x2 way really was... I had never noticed it before. People made my wife feel like she was some kind of Alien ... with her short hair... makeup and pantsuit. This is not the way it should be. We should not judge people by their outward appearance... inside they may have a heart of gold. When you do this.. all you do is push them away.... and if your way is truly the right way to heaven you have offended one of God's children. Anyway my wife did not feel comfortable and she one day told me that she did not want to go to the meetings anymore. I ask her why and she said she did not know ... she just did not feel happy there. I wish it could have been different... but as I have found out God had other plans for me... and I have learned more what that is as life goes on.
My doctrine is to love Jesus... and to tell the truth as best as I am able to understand it. The truth is that the 2x2 truth is not the only way to heaven... and to say otherwise is false. I will point out the error of my brothers ways and will seek to show them the true light. We would not have what we have in Christ if Jesus had followed your advise [dietcoke] and just shut-up and let others believe what they wanted to believe... Jesus had an agenda and that was to tell the world about his Father in heaven... and I truly believe that is what God wants me to do also. Of course Jesus was nailed on the cross because of it... if it is my fate to face some type of suffering... so be it. Praise God!!!
Thank you so very much for the encouragement that you have given me Sharon... It is so wonderful when people understand you and understand what you are trying to do. What I am trying to do is not killing anyone... all I am trying to do is to elevate Jesus above any church belief and to get people to state that in the form of a belief statement.... all the other stuff that people call doctrine is just fluff anyway... it will not get you to heaven. So what if I do not have a full understanding of the Trinity... it will make you go crazy trying to figure it all out anyway. But I can understand the love that Jesus had for us and the love that we should have toward each other.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 6, 2009 12:53:27 GMT -5
sorry I can not do that... the reason why is because I have seen far too many of God's children that have been damaged by the 2x2s exclusive methods. Thank you for sharing your personal situation! I, too, could not reconcile exclusivity, it is one of many hurtful f&w doctrines. I used to walk down the street noting all the people that were going to Hell, and get sick to my stomach. I encourage you to open the door ALL THE WAY, drop all exclusivity from your doctrine, there is great freedom in recognizing that Christians don't have all the answers or all the paths to God. Embrace your brethren from all cultures and beliefs in our quest to learn about God. If that is not possible for you, then I really feel like you are being a hypocrit in criticizing f&w's for THEIR exclusivity.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 12:57:39 GMT -5
ITHASCOME
Maybe I did that because that it where I wanted my emphasis. Its amazing what you can learn in a writing class. You put your most important point last, because its where you want the emphasis. You are just nitpicking now, because you are trying to find fault with me. You don't really need to try, as I have lots of faults. But not loving God is not one of those faults.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 13:26:51 GMT -5
I never said I would want to meet with you .... I do not care for exclusive people such as yourself kiwi... you do not seem to have love for your neighbor. You sure do not show love for me and I am a Christian... I believe in Jesus... I love Him... so what is your problem. I never said you did is that something like ?You don't care for me? You are a Christian Why then do you call others beliefs into question? is that Christian? If you believe in Jesus and love your neighbour as you say you wouldn't do as you do or is it just a Christian as you do as I say and not as I do? Will you stop being a cry baby and forever pointing the finger at others and look in your own mirror And you are who? Good for Sharon, maybe you could take a leaf out of her book
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 13:35:03 GMT -5
Read my disclaimer.. "When I use the word YOU .. I may be talking about the 2x2/fellowship not you.. If the shoe fits wear it!" I believe in the Fatherhood of God, and the Brotherhood of man. I believe in Friendship, Love and Truth as basic guides to the ultimate destiny of all mankind. And is believing in
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 13:41:50 GMT -5
Thank you for your efforts to encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are. I think it is necessary for us to do that whether we ever write them or not....but it will help the fellowship to strengthen and hopefully grow in the right direction to the Lord and Saviour! It's a bit rich to put John on a stool and to make out that he understands/knows more about our beliefs than we do.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 6, 2009 14:45:46 GMT -5
As I stated before, I believe that what matters the most is my relationship with God, and following what Jesus taught. Read my post. Ok... so what did Jesus teach? This isn't a snide question... I'm just wondering if you can stipulate what your beliefs are... or at the risk of alienating your workers... what you think they believe.
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Post by dudeler on Oct 6, 2009 15:14:03 GMT -5
I find this thread depressing. Why turn hundreds of thousands of people into unthinking, unfeeling robots? Let people be individuals, believe what they believe, instead of trying to conform to a single belief system. Just as an obvious example, we all know some in the f&w way will never be convinced this is the only way. Others will never be convinced it is not. So what? Can you imagine going to a discussion group where everybody agrees? What's the point of going? Differences in belief don't HAVE to impede fellowship, they should rather enrich it, and besides, in my experience what a person believes has absolutely zip/nadda/NOTHING to do with experiencing the Spirit in a fellowship meeting. DC or anyone else- Do you think you could articulate why it might be a good practice to not have a statement of doctrines or beliefs? It seems clear that these threads have touched on a major distinction between F&W and other Christian groups. One worth articulating, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. Why is it working to not have a statement of beliefs? What are the strengths?
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 15:32:26 GMT -5
Anyway I spoke from my heart... I love God and I love you too.
Hope I have not offended you ... sorry if I have.... I have my own salvation to work out as do you... may we meet in heaven.
God bless!! Peace!!!
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