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Post by MsMarie on Dec 8, 2009 6:02:54 GMT -5
I remember reading when I was much younger, non-professing person, a book by Arthur Findlay, entitled "The Rock of Truth". It traced the supernatural root through all world religions, demonstrated how they were all linked in beliefs and loosely through practices. Anyway it convinced me at the time that there was no God, just a natural order. I was reminded of this time when I read this thread, also of the relief I felt at that time that there was no accountability nor judgement to come.
So how come I am now a committed ex-Truth church attending Christian? Perhaps I read another book, or perhaps something else?
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 8, 2009 7:47:26 GMT -5
Ms Marie - please check your private messages.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2009 22:48:21 GMT -5
Oh, get over yourself, rational! I have just given you data! So-called scientists are very fond of the disdainful little term 'anecdotal'. No, you have not provided data. You have expressed your belief. If I were just stating my belief I could understand your skeptical attitude but given the number of studies, the variety of locations around the world that support the premise, and the lack of any data to support your premise just reinforces my belief that you really would rather put your head in the sand than consider the possibility you are in error. Again, if that is your belief you are welcome to it. Once again this is your belief and it highlights your lack of understanding how research is conducted. Reproducible results are easy. Two groups of children in the same environment. Half get sugar and half don't. Observe the children and record the results. Repeat the same test with the same children randomly selected who does and who does not get the sugar. At the end of N tests tabulate the behavior of all the observed children in each of the tests. Reveal which children were given sugar in each of the tests and see if their behavior was any different than those who did not get sugar. Every time the set of tests was conducted there was no difference between the children who had sugar and those who did not. Interestingly enough, if the parents were told that all of the children had been given sugar most claimed it was the sugar that was responsible for the child's behavior, even when the child had not been given sugar. And that is why you use the same group and control only one variable. The rest of the variables will cancel out. Really? Wow. You could have fooled me. It is so easy to say that Lyall Watson made up the story of the ball. But why would he? He was promoting an idea for which he could produce no supporting data. He told the story of the ball in a vain effort to support his beliefs. Sort of like Uri Geller. He has never been able to bend spoons in a controlled environment but he is very good at doing it as a parlor trick and has promoted it well enough to make millions.
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Post by izzi on Dec 10, 2009 15:00:24 GMT -5
Rational: "Once again this is your belief and it highlights your lack of understanding how research is conducted. Reproducible results are easy. Two groups of children in the same environment. Half get sugar and half don't. Observe the children and record the results. Repeat the same test with the same children randomly selected who does and who does not get the sugar. At the end of N tests tabulate the behavior of all the observed children in each of the tests. Reveal which children were given sugar in each of the tests and see if their behavior was any different than those who did not get sugar."
Rational - I shall be willing to argue this point with ANY so-called behavioral or social scientist.
'Children' are not test tubes of some substance. They are beings that are the product of very different circumstances, upbringings, moods, ways of dealing with the stresses involved in laboratory situations, etc. They may have differing body clocks and ways of handling sugar. There is no way that one can get reliable results from testing children.
How do you tabulate behavior? Who decides what constitutes erratic or calm behavior?
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Post by izzi on Dec 10, 2009 15:03:21 GMT -5
Why do you you assume that anyone who relates an unusual story, a somewhat 'unbelievable' story, is a liar? I could tell you some amazing stories, and I know that they are not lies - stories of telepathy, of foreboding, of simply knowing the future. They happened to me.
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Post by izzi on Dec 10, 2009 15:04:46 GMT -5
I studied research method at college, rational. I know how it is conducted. That is precisely why I do not trust it.
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2009 10:02:40 GMT -5
Rational - I shall be willing to argue this point with ANY so-called behavioral or social scientist. 'Children' are not test tubes of some substance. They are beings that are the product of very different circumstances, upbringings, moods, ways of dealing with the stresses involved in laboratory situations, etc. They may have differing body clocks and ways of handling sugar. There is no way that one can get reliable results from testing children. Here is a single example that disproves your point. Two groups of children. The first group is given ipecac and the second is given a placebo. They are then observed and the reactions recorded. Same children randomly broken into two groups. One group is given ipecac and one placebo. They are observed. You repeat the above a number of times. Tabulate the results and the action of ipecac on children will be clear. Believe it or not, there are methods that have been developed that allow the evaluation of behavior by various evaluators. For example, the Neonatal Behavioral Assessment Scale (NBAS) Brazelton developed provides a means for different observers to look at an individual and all arrive at the same results. The same can be applied to older children. The other possibility is to ask the parents to observe the children, not knowing if they have had sugar or not, and say whether they are hyperactive. The methods of evaluating human behavior generally do not only involve a single individual but look at groups of people. By looking at a large number of individuals, say a group of 50, and having only a single variable change, the effects can be easily detected, even if 1 or 2 individuals react differently.
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2009 10:23:16 GMT -5
Why do you you assume that anyone who relates an unusual story, a somewhat 'unbelievable' story, is a liar? I could tell you some amazing stories, and I know that they are not lies - stories of telepathy, of foreboding, of simply knowing the future. They happened to me. I don't usually believe the people are lying. I think they actually believe they can foretell the future, bend spoons with their minds, or whatever paranormal powers they think they have. Thee problem I have is that they either won't or can't verify their claims. If you say you know the future that means it should be demonstrable. If you occasionally guess who is on the the phone or who will be dropping in for a visit, it is probably true that there are times when you guess and are incorrect. Of course, you remember only the correct hits. I can tell you a large number of stories about foreboding when my kids were out at night and didn't return when expected. If even one of them had turned out to be true I guess I could claim to have foretold the future too. From your studies of research methodologies in college, how many methodology errors can you see in your claims of the paranormal?
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Post by outnumbered on Dec 13, 2009 18:32:00 GMT -5
Why do you you assume that anyone who relates an unusual story, a somewhat 'unbelievable' story, is a liar? I could tell you some amazing stories, and I know that they are not lies - stories of telepathy, of foreboding, of simply knowing the future. They happened to me. I don't usually believe the people are lying. I think they actually believe they can foretell the future, bend spoons with their minds, or whatever paranormal powers they think they have. Thee problem I have is that they either won't or can't verify their claims. If you say you know the future that means it should be demonstrable. If you occasionally guess who is on the the phone or who will be dropping in for a visit, it is probably true that there are times when you guess and are incorrect. Of course, you remember only the correct hits.I can tell you a large number of stories about foreboding when my kids were out at night and didn't return when expected. If even one of them had turned out to be true I guess I could claim to have foretold the future too. From your studies of research methodologies in college, how many methodology errors can you see in you claims of the paranormal? This right here is a large part of why I lost faith. I Would pray nightly, and genuinely thought my prayers were being answered. But then I realized how rarely I prayed for something that actually happened after the fact. For every prayer that I thought was an answered one, there were hundreds that weren't. Basically, I realized that it was a completely coincidental thing. Another similar story: I would always notice 11:11 or 1:11 on the clock, or 111 in a book. For the longest time, I thought Something paranormal was happening. But then I realized that I looked at the clock dozens of times throughout the day, and most of the time, it wasn't at 1:11. It's just the the number 111 stuck out in my mind.
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Post by Annan on Dec 13, 2009 21:51:47 GMT -5
I sure hate to get on the subject of alternative healing methods; but if they work for me and mine, that's all the scientific evidence I need. ;D
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Post by rational on Dec 14, 2009 8:31:02 GMT -5
I sure hate to get on the subject of alternative healing methods; but if they work for me and mine, that's all the scientific evidence I need. ;D I have no problem with people's beliefs. If it works for you then stay with it. But that is not scientific evidence. It is a casual observation with bias and no control. Like the 1:11, you remember the times when the outcome was positive but the negative occasions are put away with any number of excuses - The patient resisted treatment, the ambiance wasn't right, it did work but not as expected, etc. so, over time, the successes are the events that stick in your mind. And, in reality, self evaluation is difficult, especially when it involves areas that you see as self-defining. The bottom line is that no one cares what treatment you, as an adult, choose for yourself. But when you deny medical treatment to a minor child in favor of prayer and the child dies - then people (should) care. Of course, you can't sue god because, as it turns out, the prayers were answered - the needy family down the street got a new muffler system for their car in the raffle drawing. The death of the child was an object lesson.
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 23:08:57 GMT -5
Hmm interesting thread. I looked in because I just happen to be reading the Atheist Universe by David Mills right now. I am enjoying it because it goes into more the scientific side of things than other athiests like Dawkins, Hitchens etc. He actually gives me information about the universe I can understand. Really found Hawkings findings. "the "nothingness" of a perfect vacuum in empty space can and does spontaneiously produce matter in full agreement with Einstein's long-established laws." The phenomenom known as "Vacuum fluctuation" in which matter is created out of what appears to be perfectly empty space ie out of a perfect vacuum." This conservation of energy-mass law basically makes it possible that this universe has always existed in some form or another. Forever, has always been hard for me to wrap my mind around, living in a physical world where there always seems to be a beginning and end to things. I was reading your conversations about the 100th monkey and thought about how critical mass is supposed to work. Interesting if it actually works. Means if enough of us want something and work towards it we can start enough of a momentum to have it continue on. Here's a Wiki page about it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass_(sociodynamics)
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Post by ariandgabe on Feb 2, 2011 1:57:51 GMT -5
I remember reading when I was much younger, non-professing person, a book by Arthur Findlay, entitled "The Rock of Truth". It traced the supernatural root through all world religions, demonstrated how they were all linked in beliefs and loosely through practices. Anyway it convinced me at the time that there was no God, just a natural order. I was reminded of this time when I read this thread, also of the relief I felt at that time that there was no accountability nor judgment to come. So how come I am now a committed ex-Truth church attending Christian? Perhaps I read another book, or perhaps something else? Amen MsMarie, I've been there too.
I too noticed this post 'evolve' and then at times suddenly 'devolve'. It is all about keeping the mind preoccupied by wisdom of man, wisdom of spirits (Other then the Holy Spirit) the wisdom of other scientists, philosophers, spiritualists, witches, anything and everything to keep our minds off of our God of the Bible.
When I left the meetings the first time, I was really open to anything that sounded interesting. The New Age seemed for a time to set me free (as you) from the responsibility of self, or the fear of judgment. The problem was that no matter how I 'believed', no matter how free I felt, the reality of mounting speeding tickets caused me to FEAR going 148 mph on my motorcycle, even though there was no cars on hwy8 from AZ to Cal at the time I did that. I mean I thought; 'if I crash, I will only hurt myself. Besides, at that speed, I probably won't hurt much or long. If I die, I just go on to be ONE with the World, with nature, with the universe.
BS.. it was all BS. Life was full of consequences, pain, resentment, had to put in a lot of overtime to pay the fines, had to get rides to work when they took my license for a time, ..but the worst.. the horror at that time of my young life was that I had to actually 'slow down'. I mean can you imagine 1985, on a 145 hp V-Max going 55mph on the highway? 35-45 in the city? I gave my bike to my nephew.
As long as I read the New Age books like 'Seth Talks' and books by Thea Alexander, and having seminars even was invited to her home, I was O.K. I just kept saying to myself; "I am one with the universe... I am one with the universe.." but deep down I knew I was lying to myself. Not only that, I was being lied to by these New Age thinkers, writers.
They suffered with aches and pains, and hurts and jealousy, confusion and anger, .. just like everyone else, except we told ourself that it was an experience. That; 'this is what we CHOSE to experience for the time.' BS again. When I got rid of my bike, drove my car within the speed limit, I got my license back, and started to make headways in my life.
There IS consequences, I don't live my life in an unconscious irresponsible carefree realm of happy.. happy.. joy.. joy no matter what anguish I'm going through and how I feel. I can consciously change that. I have free will, and not some spirit in a book telling me that my past lives are dictating my present existence, 'just go with it Odon... go with it and enjoy it.'
Lies by Satan. This is why people like Rational (sorry buddy) and Anan (if I may ma'am) and the rest, have to continuously read those garbage thinker books other then the Bible. Most minds just accept watching TV to get their fill of puke, sorry 'dope'. But smart ones have to read Einstein, Hawking, Darwin and the ones mentioned above to get that high and to stay high.
That is all it was for me, a fake good feeling from these New Age spirits through their books, and as long as I got my fix, I remained sane, even had this aura around me as I was told. Aura my a__s, I was high on New Age. When I tired of reading, I went for the real drugs, until I realized that this was all fake, all artificial. I turned once again to the Bible, but this time no influence of any church.
I prayed... and I searched, and I listened to people on both sides of reality. I found that both are spiritual, the one can manifest in the physical mind; Entertaining theories, witchcraft etc. and the other in the Spiritual mind; that there is someone greater in control, who is calling me, beckoning me, teaching me truths that are set and not based on some freak accident of time and space.
I realized there is order everywhere, and I did not put it there. Matter of fact, science is constantly learning from this already set order. Like the DNA, you are this and not that, you shall go so far and no further. Order.
The other leads to kayos, no, it IS kayos. Just look in the world and what's unfolding today. THERE IS EVIL AND THERE IS GOOD! I chose good, the law is good. And God sent His Son to take away the law, or actually simplify it; "love one another as I have loved you, as I still love you' AAAhhhhh... no greater love is there then the God of Love.
No book other then the Bible offers such promise.. and with this comes something better then any spell, any New Age promise; Eternal life in ORDER-LIGHT-LOVE. How could anyone settle for so much less, I just don't understand???
May God bless you all with light! Odon
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Post by ariandgabe on Feb 2, 2011 22:34:48 GMT -5
Hmm interesting thread. I looked in because I just happen to be reading the Atheist Universe by David Mills right now. I am enjoying it because it goes into more the scientific side of things than other athiests like Dawkins, Hitchens etc. He actually gives me information about the universe I can understand. Really found Hawkings findings. "the "nothingness" of a perfect vacuum in empty space can and does spontaneiously produce matter in full agreement with Einstein's long-established laws." The phenomenom known as "Vacuum fluctuation" in which matter is created out of what appears to be perfectly empty space ie out of a perfect vacuum." This conservation of energy-mass law basically makes it possible that this universe has always existed in some form or another. Forever, has always been hard for me to wrap my mind around, living in a physical world where there always seems to be a beginning and end to things. I was reading your conversations about the 100th monkey and thought about how critical mass is supposed to work. Interesting if it actually works. Means if enough of us want something and work towards it we can start enough of a momentum to have it continue on. Here's a Wiki page about it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass_(sociodynamics) Zeitgeist Venus Project theory; "If we get enough suckers to give up their wealth, body and soul to us, and work toward our goal of world domination, we can start enough of a momentum to have it continue on."
Rev 13:15-17 16 The beast forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, slave and free, to have a mark placed on their right hands or on their foreheads. 17 No one could buy or sell unless he had this mark, that is, the beast's name or the number that stands for the name. TEV
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Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 3, 2011 21:01:50 GMT -5
Which person do you suppose is behind the goal of world domination, Ari? Surely there is just one who controls all others. Or is it one organization?
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Post by ariandgabe on Feb 9, 2011 23:37:24 GMT -5
Which person do you suppose is behind the goal of world domination, Ari? Surely there is just one who controls all others. Or is it one organization? Yes, the Beast that was mortally wounded; “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.” Rev 13
Satan has been loosed and has chosen a nation (out of the sea - out of the people) to rule in his name; “The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.”
Rev 13:1-4 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" NKJV
The second beast (I believe; all the Muslims, Hindus, Demon and Mormo worshippers - horns that will eventually fall) Rev 13- “Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.”
is creating an 'image' of the first Beast who was mortally wounded.
“14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Rev 13:11-17
This I believe, is the Master 666 computer integrated into Facebook, the Social Network, Venus Project, Zeitgeist which will be given a mouth to speak and will spit out the names of people like the Christian Jew Odon Sabo who refuses to accept the Mark Of The Beast like the Trinity Doctrine, the Pyramid with the All Seeing eye, the New OWO representing the ‘Beyond utopia’ project) and they will be killed (some like me a hundred times and counting, praise the Lord!)
Dan 11:31 “And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.” (The Trinity Doctrine, The Mosque)
Rev 13:5-8 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.”
(Obama has done this in many speeches against Christianity)
“7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Dan 11:31-32 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. NKJV
The next move is for the Jews to stop mending the wounds of the first Beast, build their temple, that is their hearts as fertile soil and welcome the One that comes in the Name of the Lord, their Messiah.
Dan 12:9-11,
Mark 13:14-15 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. NKJV
Look on the Dome of the Rock in Israel, and the New Pope, and tell me that is not the 'abomination of desolation' standing where it aught not?
Mark 13:19-20 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. NKJV
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Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 21, 2011 13:15:53 GMT -5
History suggests the abomination of desolation happened before the new testament.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 15:33:08 GMT -5
History suggests the abomination of desolation happened before the new testament. The Calvary Chapel belief is that the abomination has yet to happen; that it will happen after the Jews rebuild the temple, and halfway into the 7 year period this person/whatever will take over and expect to be worshiped. Predicting the future's hard work.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Mar 11, 2011 20:37:55 GMT -5
Speaking of which, I still haven't received the name of the organization or person who will be the bad dude. Sure got a lot of verses though.
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Post by MsMarie on Oct 19, 2011 7:07:53 GMT -5
As my brother said to me 'I can't believe in an afterlife and know you do. If you are wrong, then you will never know, but if I am wrong, then I may have all eternity to regret it, especially if there was a condition I just didn't fill' Many things in this life are a gamble really, but I wouldn't want the odds of perhaps 80 years, as against missing out on eternal life!
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Post by faune on Oct 19, 2011 19:54:41 GMT -5
Annan, I dont understand this sentence. Why do you feel worry or guilt about after life? Its not something I have thought about in that context or experienced.Perhaps I didn't word that the way I should have. My parents' brand of Christianity was doom and gloom and everything other than breathing was a sin that was going to pay for. I used to beat myself up all the time for a wrong thought or desire, and worried myself sick that I was going to burn in hell for all eternity. Freedom for me these days means holding myself responsible for my thought, word, and deed, and realizing their is no judge and jury other than me, myself, and I... and, of course, the laws of the land. Annan ~ I'm sure you are not the only one who got burned out on the "doom and gloom" of the Way. It was a good faith killer for some and still continues to be so, IMHO. However, some embraced Universalism and others different Christian perspectives to replace the old tapes. However, I do understand your feelings, as they were shared by most of us upon leaving the "one and only true way" created by our the imfamous William Irvine at the turn of the century. After being lied to by so many people we trusted and respected, it does take time to get our "ducks in a roll" and our act together again. However, just being free of that twisted belief system is a great plus in anybody's life. I do hope you will give some thought to what others have shared, as I'm convinced there is a God of the universe and we can trust Him afterall.
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2011 11:28:52 GMT -5
After being lied to by so many people we trusted and respected, it does take time to get our "ducks in a roll" and our act together again. Are you saying being lied to left you feeling peckish and in response developed a new sandwich with ducks as a filling? Do you suggest a kaiser roll?!? Mayo and mustard?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 20:12:12 GMT -5
After being lied to by so many people we trusted and respected, it does take time to get our "ducks in a roll" and our act together again. Are you saying being lied to left you feeling peckish and in response developed a new sandwich with ducks as a filling? Do you suggest a kaiser roll?!? Mayo and mustard? I've been envisioning mallard ducks in particular....all nicely stuffed in a roll...hold the mayo, pass the mallards please.
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2011 23:20:03 GMT -5
Are you saying being lied to left you feeling peckish and in response developed a new sandwich with ducks as a filling? Do you suggest a kaiser roll?!? Mayo and mustard? I've been envisioning mallard ducks in particular....all nicely stuffed in a roll...hold the mayo, pass the mallards please. Reminds me of the Mallard Fizz in the Monty Python co cktail sketch! "You haven't got something a little less...eh...ducky, have you?""What do you mean, something without the mallard, sir?"
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Post by Rob O on Oct 28, 2011 5:39:19 GMT -5
Reminds me of the Mallard Fizz in the Monty Python co cktail sketch! "You haven't got something a little less...eh...ducky, have you?""What do you mean, something without the mallard, sir?"With a twist of lemming!
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Apr 13, 2012 21:53:14 GMT -5
Speaking of which, I still haven't received the name of the organization or person who will be the bad dude. Sure got a lot of verses though. You might like to study the rothschilds/morgans/ knights templar/ royal family bloodlines that date back to the Nephilim. You might discover the masterminds behind the planned world order. Anti Christ is in place of.
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