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Post by pianoman on Apr 30, 2009 10:22:46 GMT -5
Sharon, a very good point. One must not allow their heart to be hardened.
I do believe, however that since this in not over with, the post must continue so that all may find out as much information as possible.
I put this statement in earlier and got some PM's that found it offensive, when I posted the following: " I really feel that this will show many what really goes down in the 2x2 way, and will make a case for either view."
I would like to state that my meaning is that when a complex or high profile case is handled by the workers, what they usually choose is not the best remedy. The fact that these things happen, and get the most "coverage" is too bad, and I don't tend to imply that because that poor choices are made by a few, that all of the workers make bad choices and all of the friends are involved or implicated in bad things. I will stipulate that the bad incidents are usually from a small percentage, but they are the ones that get all of the attention.
The Michigan Case is not the first, nor will it be the last. I am just hoping that those that remain in the 2x2 way, will take stock and perhaps move for change.
As I also stated, I am an ex because of being on the receiving end of this type of treatment, and no one has ever stepped in and interceded on my part. I believe that is why this keeps happening. I had one person say to me, "I don't want to rock the boat".
If you don't rock the boat, you may go down with the ship..................................Pianoman
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Post by pianoman on Apr 30, 2009 10:29:54 GMT -5
Blessed are the peacemakers for THEY shall be called the children of God.................Pianoman
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Post by jhjmr on Apr 30, 2009 18:26:50 GMT -5
For anyone to clear things up and try to amend wrong doings, you have to want to. That is part of the problem. Not caring. And how many are blinded to the fact that yes, an overseer can be a deceiver. Just because he says this is the way it is, are we so blinded by this that we can't or don't want to know if that really is the way it is. He is just a man. Born naked like everyone else. He was suppose to be called by God. He was suppose to care about peoples souls. Does that sound just like everyone else. We all want to be right with God. And we all care about our souls and others. So, where does the logic come that he is above all, holier than thou and if he says its that way, his word is gospel. That is a man made position that can haunt a man to death or torment to death. Superiority is God's place. And no man is perfect or always right. Putting someone on a pedestal is what you get. No need to correct a wrong matter nor even care. That is where this is at. Of course if any that he didn't like were not around it would make life much more relaxed. Living in a shadow of damage caused by him and his staff you would think you would want to end, but, admitting to something wrong takes a hero not a boot. His boots are used quite often. It isn't the lip service that counts, it is the life service!!
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Post by sharon on Apr 30, 2009 18:54:14 GMT -5
For anyone to clear things up and try to amend wrong doings, you have to want to. That is part of the problem. Not caring. And how many are blinded to the fact that yes, an overseer can be a deceiver. Just because he says this is the way it is, are we so blinded by this that we can't or don't want to know if that really is the way it is. He is just a man. Born naked like everyone else. He was suppose to be called by God. He was suppose to care about peoples souls. Does that sound just like everyone else. We all want to be right with God. And we all care about our souls and others. So, where does the logic come that he is above all, holier than thou and if he says its that way, his word is gospel. That is a man made position that can haunt a man to death or torment to death. Superiority is God's place. And no man is perfect or always right. Putting someone on a pedestal is what you get. No need to correct a wrong matter nor even care. That is where this is at. Of course if any that he didn't like were not around it would make life much more relaxed. Living in a shadow of damage caused by him and his staff you would think you would want to end, but, admitting to something wrong takes a hero not a boot. His boots are used quite often. It isn't the lip service that counts, it is the life service!! Precisely what I was referring to when I said about the loss of effectiveness in the ministering capacity! IMO
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Post by bandtroll on Apr 30, 2009 20:23:26 GMT -5
"Of those who were investigated and nothing was found incriminating, I can hardly imagine that there will be anything listed anywhere other than in the report held by the investigating office." Tell you tell you what, go have some one charge you with a nature of these sorts. Then come and tell me about IT, before any of you go spouting off to us, what should/could be, maybe, it is what it is and that can't be changed no matter which way one wishes it to be. Sorry, I've been reading on this topic since it's been posted here on the TMB and don't remember anyone being charged because of the girls statement. Yes, the girls accused a lot of people but who did the police charge as a result of those accusations? (It should be a matter of public record) Based on your statement, if someone hasn't been in your shoes they shouldn't have an opinion on the matter?? So how do you feel about criminal juries? Should only those who have committed that crime or been a victim of that crime be allowed to serve on that jury? And yes, I, other family members, others I know have been accused (but not charged, so I know the difference.) And yes there is a police record because in one case (where I was not accused) I went to the courthouse and got a copy of the police reports.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 30, 2009 23:51:41 GMT -5
Bandtroll, I am not sure you understand the severity of being accused. If you were accused, your name is on permanent record, and as I posted on page #9, the legal ramifications simplified, you will have that accusation on your permanent record for life, also. If you get charged with a similar crime, and are tried for it, it can be brought up as an aggravating circumstance. The particulars may not be divulged, but the fact that you were accused in a previous sexual misconduct case, can be used. I would not like that to be on my record. I also don't blame others for not wanting it on their record, but it is there, and what is going to be done on that. Security clearances can access the essence of the charges in that they were of sexual misconduct in nature, and that can blow a security clearance, or a really good job. That is how damages are determined. Lawyers may not divulge this to you, but take my word, it is fact, you will have this on your permanent record forever. If you can live with that, that is good, but is it right? I think that those that were mentioned as accused have every right to expect to be compensated for any "out of pocket" expenses, and should be approached by the other side to settle this out of court. Regarding the remaining twin, the courts should soon determine her credibility. That should be a wrap for the case, and end the litigation. At that point, all need to get together, and try to salvage what is a real mess that should have never happened in the first place. I am sorry to say, that I don't believe that all involved on either side will ever get over this completely, and will never have the trust issues with certain ones again.
This is a sad situation, and needs to be taken care of immediatly.....................Pianoman
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Post by sharon on May 1, 2009 9:17:52 GMT -5
For truth, it needs to be taken care of immediately.....it's like a festering sore...it just keeps oozing more and more vileness. Soon it will contaminate to the point of no return, if that hasn't already happened. And for some, I fear it has!
I wish that those in positions of leadership would just humble themselves before God humbles them....for soon they'll fully understand and more the anguish that such vileness has caused those who had no part in the mess or should not have had part in the mess......humbling oneself takes a far bigger man/person then one who keeps sweeping it under the carpet.
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Post by jhjmr on May 1, 2009 13:37:04 GMT -5
If leadership wanted to humble themselves, it would have been done along time ago before everything got so out of hand. And since they didn't have the need to do such, the deeper the wounds became and the bigger the problem to solve. Credibility in leaderships positions have been compromised and as long as the same leadership continues, how could anything be different? It will only get worse. You don't treat an infection with a band aid. You had better get some antibiotics or the infections will not leave but get worse. You must remove the source of the infection to be cured of it. And that is what we are witnessing. A infectious disease that will wipe a few, then a lot and eventually the whole fellowship. It sure doesn't take a rocket sience rocket to figure that one out. Call it swine flu and lets see how fast it will be contained if possible.
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Post by sharon on May 1, 2009 14:28:06 GMT -5
You have a point, jmjhr, however God sees who and what has gone one here and I'm certain of one thing....for any of us that do not seek to humble ourselves and love our brethren as we should.....then our fate is in God's hands....He uses the unjust to bring about His Will...but never in the way that they would ever dream possible. Yes, the leadership is severely compromised and it has given the fellowship itself a terrible black eye....I'm hoping all my talking to other "leaders" will eventually get them past "not wanting to step on another leader's toes", to do something that will start the refreshing of appropriate thoughts and behaviors....I'm not the only one who has stuck their mouth out and most likely will have to pay a heavy toll ourselves...but hey, most of us already knew that was a likely possibility.....but at least we're not being quiet about it...... Although in the case of the D&R couple in the land down under who'd gone over 10 yrs going to fellowship mtgs. with no privileges...when their overseer was approached about applying his own sermon of love and mercy in their favor, it got the couple treated much worse...called lepers no less....that can happen as well....and none of us want to pile on more horrendous things upon those who are innocent in the whole issues.
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Post by pianoman on May 1, 2009 15:44:57 GMT -5
Sharon, I really feel for you and others that are trying to just do the right thing.
I am glad to hear that you are putting your neck out, as intercession is the thing that is needed most here.
I don't let my blind friend drive my car, and he doesn't ask me to read jokes in Braille. We get on great.
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Post by bandtroll on May 1, 2009 20:14:05 GMT -5
Bandtroll, I am not sure you understand the severity of being accused. Yes I do. Yes it is. With a good defence attorney the particulars would be divulged. The accused spend time in the psych wing of the hospital and none of those accused were ever charged. The only people this is likely to make a difference to is those who are living "marginal criminal lives." Nor do I, but it is what it is. Nor do I blame anyone for not wanting on their record, but that is what happens in these kinds of cases. No, it's not right. But what makes this case so different than any of the other cases in this country where someone is falsely accused? Compensated by whom? Two teenagers? Is that really going to solve anything? God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.We can't change the past, we can't change that the twins have some type of psych issues, but we can change how we accept the past and deal with the future.
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Post by pianoman on May 1, 2009 20:22:49 GMT -5
I guess you are saying, "lets just shrug our shoulders and move on"?
The Senility prayer.
Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, The good fortune to run into the ones I do, and The eyesight to tell the difference.
Perhaps this is needed for everyone. No sense in having any responsibility.
I guess if you just drive the car in the bank robbery, you are off scott free?
Who is in charge here? Who should be accountable?
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Post by jhjmr on May 1, 2009 20:39:27 GMT -5
Would be something if Bandtroll found out his name was on the list. Since it seems like anybody could make the list, don't anyone hold their breath. Wonder what the tone or attitude would be then, Ho Hum yawn and move on? There are many more than just the twins that have done wrong. So, you never know who is going to end up with some responsiblity to make right or compensate the wrong. Remember, it is only the squeaky wheel that gets greased!! There is a lot of greasing to be done. We have courage to change the things that MUST be changed and the wisdom to know it is necessary!! Then God will grant us his serenity. Peace comes to those who seek it and we will know peace. You can not change determination to make things right so pretending that it doesn't matter, will never ever work. Those responsible will feeel the pain that others have felt.
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Post by bandtroll on May 1, 2009 21:28:47 GMT -5
I guess you are saying, "lets just shrug our shoulders and move on"? The Senility prayer. Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, The good fortune to run into the ones I do, and The eyesight to tell the difference. Perhaps this is needed for everyone. No sense in having any responsibility. Of what has happened, what can you change? Can you change that someone was accused? Can you change that someone else has psych issues? Can you change how you let this effect your life? I am all for responsibility. If/when the twins are found competent and found guilty they should be held responsible. The courts should be Those who commited the crime.
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Post by bandtroll on May 1, 2009 21:47:40 GMT -5
Would be something if Bandtroll found out his name was on the list. Something like that. But no one else has been charged. In case you have missed it in my other posts. I have been accused (in another case). Others in my family have been accused (in another case). I have seen the police records listing the names that will be on recorded forever. The accusers have been in our homes, they know us and our families, they may accuse again someday. We have lived through it and moved on. Posted by jhjmr on Yesterday at 5:26pm Agreed, both sides have to want to. So let the other side know you want to clear things up and then move on. The lives of the accused will only be effected as much as they are willing to let this effect them. Has anyone lost their life, their job, the life's savings, their family over this? What is to be gained by dwelling on this?
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Post by pianoman on May 2, 2009 0:13:27 GMT -5
If the criteria is that one must lose their life, job, life savings, or their family over this, and those that hired investigators and attorneys are just to "suck it up", this will never get cleared up.
If you have so much money that you can afford these luxuries, Please dial 1-800-sendcash, and I will act like a telemarketer and clean out your credit card.
What I am hearing is that the side of the accused, for the most part, (bandtroll excluded) they want to move on, but want the overseer to do something to try to settle this thing.
I find it hard to believe that these two girls did all of this without the knowledge of the overseer, and others. They have a responsibility, or do we excuse that because they are workers?
If that is the case, perhaps Tim Severud should be set free and put back in the work.
Sorry, Bandtroll, but I fear that your "no big deal" attitude is inappropriate for this situation.
No one will be left in the church if this is the attitude that will be taken. Too much damage has been done.
This is why there are exes, and some are really bitter.
Oh well, doesn't affect me so get over it, does not cut it here. This was put to the authorities, and will be there til it is resolved in their hands. The overseer needs to step down, or withdraw his support from the side he is on.
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Post by bandtroll on May 2, 2009 8:21:26 GMT -5
If the criteria is that one must lose their life, job, life savings, or their family over this, and those that hired investigators and attorneys are just to "suck it up", this will never get cleared up. To my knowledge, the twins did not cause any direct physical or financial damage to anyone. How people reacted to their accusations is beyond twins control. I don't know the stats, but I doubt the ratio of people falsely accused/suspected/questioned by the police to those that get reimbursed for their inconvenience is very low. (I am not one of the accused in this case as far as I know) I fail to see why the overseer has to do anything. According to court records (from what has been posted here), the twins were the ones who made the accusations. So the workers were supposed to have obstructed justice? I've never said the workers should not be charged with a crime. If the workers committed a crime, notify the police. But I believe in leaving that to the courts and not to the mob. TS was found guilty/plead guilty in a court of law. Two completely different situations. If a crime was committed, report it. But this is starting to look like a case of people wanting to go after whoever has the deepest pockets regardless of their responsibility with the issue. To me this is a criminal issue not a church issue (which may be why we see things differently) If this has been reported to the authorities, then let the authorities deal with it. But my guess is that people will be demanding that the overseer step down regardless of what the court finds. IMO it has become about what the mob wants, regardless of the law. (Isn't there a story in the Bible about that?)
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Post by sharon on May 2, 2009 9:29:51 GMT -5
It seems to me the whole angst of those who were accused of CSA and other abuses is the whole fact that it took a lot of time for the legal and medical system to ascertain the issue of the twins incompetency in regards to the allegations. Thus in that period of time there was considerable amount of libel and slander......the issue has been so full of such things within the church is the main reason the court has ordered that the young family and their adopted children can have NO socialization WITH the church in that area......that taints all those who were accused within the church with a "court order" as well as those who were doing the rumor and gossip milling. Jesus words "Let your conversation be yea or nay." come quickly to my mind. Jesus also said for us to agree with our adversary and to settle our issues outside the court of law, because our adversary will deliver us up to the magistrate and we will pay the utmost farthing. The saddest part of it all, sometimes some of us don't know exactly who our adversary is, until it is too late.....and I can tell what that feels like and YES< you will pay the utmost farthing.
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Post by pianoman on May 2, 2009 11:03:36 GMT -5
UK01, I hope you are not so naive to believe that once a record has been made, it will be "destroyed" I don't want to side track this post about this case, but will insert a small story to show how this works. Perhaps Bandtroll will finally admit that there is something to all of this.
In 1968, I was falsely convicted of a misdemeanor crime, and sent to a federal prison for a year. Upon my release, I went to the court house where I was "convicted" and asked for the records of my "trial" in which two workers and my parents had sat and watched me get railroaded by a crooked judge. It was so obvious. At the court house, I produced my release papers, with the Prison's Federal Penitentiary Stamp on it, and asked for the court records. I was informed that I had never been convicted in the federal court there. This is the same court is was convicted in. I asked how I got the release papers with the federal stamp on it. A shoulder shrug was the reply. I have had lawyers and congressmen try to obtain these records, but with no luck. Do they still exist, and are they still used against me, absolutely. Several years later, I was applying for a job with a large aircraft company, and they were ready to hire me. The man taking my interview stated he had to make a phone call. He left and came back and told me that they couldn't hire me. He revealed that my imprisonment was the cause of them not being able to hire me.
Now in this case, anyone that believes that records are "expunged" for real and forever, they are being duped and naive.
I have to really wonder if Bandtroll is one of the accused, or if this person is just trying to "stand behind" the overseer.
One of the things that a person has to do, once accused, is hire defense attorneys, and or as in this case, a private investigator, usually hired through an attorney. These people are not cheap.
Sharon says that this should be settled out of court, between the offenders and the accusers. I agree and those that are standing with the accusers, should be accountable .
This is not a deep pocket case. this case will stand as an example for what happens when workers are involved in something that causes damages.
If it is established that the workers can claim no responsibility, then they have set a very dangerous precedent, and others will not be subdued in cases like this, and will freely cause hurt and damage, then claim to be indigent, and not have money to pay for damage they cause or help cause.
I have yet to read on here where someone that is established in longstanding, or known by this board and it's participants, to say that the overseer did the right thing, and continues to do the right thing.
Most overseers are informed of all actions like this before they take place, and usually recommend the action appropriate to take. If they choose to be overseers, they should oversee, and stand accountable.
Even in Tim Severud's case, there should be some culpability on the overseers part. If he was not aware of Tim's behavior, then that would be different.
This case is different, indeed. The workers and overseer were knowingly involved and should stand accountable.
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Post by rjs on May 2, 2009 11:13:03 GMT -5
If the workers were less concerned about the image of the PERFECT WAY and more concerned about being open, Christlike, compassionate and acountable to man, then things would improve. o head worker is above the law or too high to say I AM SORRY...I WAS WRONG. It takes a REAL MAN to admit to wrong as a juvenile to blame others for his or her wrongs.
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Post by jhjmr on May 2, 2009 11:37:54 GMT -5
Any charge that is turned into the police questioned or checked then will go the prosecutor to see if any charges are to be brought. It is TOTALLY illegal to ever destroy any of those charges. It is in a file that the end results are filed and then it is to be sealed when those charges are false. You can have any charges made against someone expunged but the original file can no be destroyed. Those charges will always be known as false and there will always be a record that they were false but they can not be destroyed. Anyone that investigated because of the charges now have a seperate file in their name. It is absolutely TOTALLY important to make sure that the file contains evidence that those charges made were false. But that file in not part of the original file. It is the file of the person investigated. Those files can be subpoened if someone needed them. But they never become public because of false charges. The personal file of someone investigated is public information. Only a lawyer could legally read any file but can NOT copy it. So, no of this stuff is a non-issue. And it is very important as to if there was any outside interference in any of these charges. Was there libel or slander. Therefore, anyone that is not directly involved in this case or has inside knowledge, it might be hard to understand everything. And when it is said, what does the mob want. No truer words could be spoken. It is just that the mob is the church. And yes, does the mob know what is legal? Sooner or later everyone will!! To bad everything wasn't just left up to the authorities. But, is there proper authorities within the church? Doesn't appear so. Just the lynch mob!! Also, does the overseer have anything to do with mess? Why is there an overseer? What is an overseer suppose to do? An overseer is suppose to have order within his group of workers and the followers. He is to see that things are done properly and orderly. He is responsible for the doings of the preachers under his watch. He either was incompetent to know what his preachers were doing or incompetent to not know what they were doing. Total incompetence no matter how you look at it. Anymore excuses for such behavior?
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Post by jhjmr on May 2, 2009 11:49:24 GMT -5
rjs: I agree that the workers are concerned about the image of the PERFECT WAY. There is only ONE perfect way. It is not the workers way, but it is GODS way. That is why their is no Christlike, compassionate nor compatable spirit. Let God show the image of the perfect way and those traits would follow. No WORKER, in any position is above the law just like me and you. And they do have to answer to the law just like me and you. The courts have no problem telling someone they are wrong and could care less if you think you aren't or that you could justify actions used against someone that would be of slander or malice and it doesn't matter because you used the title minister.
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Post by jhjmr on May 2, 2009 12:53:59 GMT -5
Ask any lawyer, you can not throw away a charge that was made against someone. But if it is false and was NOT investigated, those charges are kept sealed because they were false. If a lawyer investigates any charge, he will be allowed to see the file, but it is not to be copied, and he then has opened up a new file under that charge for whomever wanted it investigated. Now it is not just a slew of names, it is under just one name. No officer nor court will just release a bunch of names that are false, that is slander. Those names are protected by the sealed file. The passing and telling of names around has been a terrible problem. But it was not done by the court. Only a lawyer can see those files if he is hired to check those files by law. The court can not let just anyone read those files legally. Of course, hand in enough false allegations, and the court swears out a felony arrest for false allegations. That is the file the court has the allegations in. The allegations are not part of the accused file, that file is strictly the court hearings, confession and rulings. That is public information. Be nice if it was easy and say good, that was a lie now just throw that away.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 2, 2009 20:18:04 GMT -5
Any charge that is turned into the police questioned or checked then will go the prosecutor to see if any charges are to be brought. It is TOTALLY illegal to ever destroy any of those charges. It is in a file that the end results are filed and then it is to be sealed when those charges are false. You can have any charges made against someone expunged but the original file can no be destroyed. Those charges will always be known as false and there will always be a record that they were false but they can not be destroyed. Anyone that investigated because of the charges now have a seperate file in their name. It is absolutely TOTALLY important to make sure that the file contains evidence that those charges made were false. But that file in not part of the original file. It is the file of the person investigated. Those files can be subpoened if someone needed them. But they never become public because of false charges. The personal file of someone investigated is public information. Only a lawyer could legally read any file but can NOT copy it. So, no of this stuff is a non-issue. And it is very important as to if there was any outside interference in any of these charges. Was there libel or slander. Therefore, anyone that is not directly involved in this case or has inside knowledge, it might be hard to understand everything. And when it is said, what does the mob want. No truer words could be spoken. It is just that the mob is the church. And yes, does the mob know what is legal? Sooner or later everyone will!! To bad everything wasn't just left up to the authorities. But, is there proper authorities within the church? Doesn't appear so. Just the lynch mob!! Also, does the overseer have anything to do with mess? Why is there an overseer? What is an overseer suppose to do? An overseer is suppose to have order within his group of workers and the followers. He is to see that things are done properly and orderly. He is responsible for the doings of the preachers under his watch. He either was incompetent to know what his preachers were doing or incompetent to not know what they were doing. Total incompetence no matter how you look at it. Anymore excuses for such behavior? From what I read in the Michigan Complied Laws, this is not true. Could you provide me with the MCL which supports your statement--For my own learning Curve. Please check out this little form blurb I found also--- answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081201073619AAZircjTo add then with thought to the above forum discussion--If in fact the records are sealed and if someone has taken the effort to have records expunged or seal; And at a latter date faces damages by the release of said information--Then that person has recourse to seek recompense for said damages even from the State. UK01: Are you not in Ireland Northern part? Bandtroll: Explain how my file from here ended up in MI, in the state troopers hands. You might want to explain that one as well uk01. Even, after they were to be expunged. Bandtroll: See you haven’t changed you can’t accept the facts so you play the make em all confused game. 1/ONE question have for you have you ever had any kind of sexual assault charges or allegations of them brought against YOU!!
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 2, 2009 20:29:52 GMT -5
Has anyone else here have or had a daughter accuse you falsely, tell you it ant no picnic.
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Post by bandtroll on May 2, 2009 20:53:18 GMT -5
Bandtroll: Explain how my file from here ended up in MI, in the state troopers hands. Not sure what you mean by "here"? The TMB? Where you live? If you were on the accused list it's likely they did some digging. Could you re-word the question? (Answered that in my post from yesterday) Me personally? Allegations, Yes. Charges, No. (Same with another member of my family, different case)
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Post by bandtroll on May 2, 2009 21:17:39 GMT -5
I don't want to side track this post about this case, but will insert a small story to show how this works. Perhaps Bandtroll will finally admit that there is something to all of this. In 1968, I was falsely convicted of a misdemeanor crime, and sent to a federal prison for a year. You were FALSELY accused, charged and convicted. The "200" in the MI have only been FALSELY accused. Not charged, not convicted. Read back through this thread. Someone else threw that out there, not me. In responding to them, I said that I don't if I am on the list or not. What I have said is that I and others in my family have been falsely accused in other cases and that it is in the police records. What have I posted that said I was behind the overseer?? I am only behind him (or anyone else) by stating that he has not been charged with a crime.
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Post by bandtroll on May 2, 2009 21:22:54 GMT -5
Only a lawyer could legally read any file but can NOT copy it. So, no of this stuff is a non-issue. Not in all area's of the US. I have gone to two different court houses, asked for and received copies of (closed) investigations where the sexual allegations were found to be falsely filed. Not even the names of minors were blocked out of the record.
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