dchaplin
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Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 26, 2008 7:39:27 GMT -5
Gem Royal Member
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Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 2,857 Re: Michigan « Reply #143 Yesterday at 12:46pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lovely post David! Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actions SPEAK louder than words!
Thank You!
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Post by harpsichord on Sept 26, 2008 8:13:38 GMT -5
From DChp
I am curious what you mean by "our kingdom"? Are you implying that Gods Kingdom is only the 2x2s or the Kingdom of 2x2s or What?
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peace and joy
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For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace,and joy in the Holy Ghost
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Post by peace and joy on Sept 26, 2008 10:18:13 GMT -5
Dave- that was a lovely post as Gem said. I appreciate your humbleness in not taking the credit for your spirit, but giving glory to God for what he has done for you. Also, appreciate the reminder of who the real enemy is, and how he seeks to destroy us. Many have been deceived in this Michigan mess. Keep feeding on the Lamb.
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dchaplin
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Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 27, 2008 2:38:43 GMT -5
harpsichord Full Member
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Joined: Sept 2008 Posts: 115 Re: Michigan « Reply #145 Yesterday at 8:13am »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From DChp
Quote:I hope this can be all our portion and forgiveness can prevail and there can be healing through out our kingdom.
I am curious what you mean by "our kingdom"? Are you implying that Gods Kingdom is only the 2x2s or the Kingdom of 2x2s or What? I am refering to the words of Jesus. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: ( verse 21 ) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold the kingdom of God is within you.
My personal belief is; as Jesus says, the kingdom of God is within US. Thus my personalizing it with my previous wording, OUR kingdom. I believe in a personal relationship with Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. How about yourself, what is your belief? Sincerely, Dave.
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dchaplin
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Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 27, 2008 3:01:20 GMT -5
bandtroll Full Member
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Joined: Sept 2008 Posts: 141 Re: Michigan « Reply #140 on Sept 24, 2008, 6:39pm »
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Sept 24, 2008, 4:56pm, greenthumb wrote:I'm glad you've had second thoughts about suing the twins and sister workers for false accusations. First of all I think we in this country are way to 'sue' happy. Beyond that, here are reasons I think it would be a lost cause in this case. - Neither have any money in their own name (is my guess) - Not sure a lawyer would take a case like this for free, and if they have nothing the state would have to supply their lawyer. - You would have to prove 'harm.' Did you loose your job, house, family? Are you now under a doctors care?
And it just drags this thing on that much longer, that much longer before everyone gets on with their life. Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged bandtroll, the only reason for any lawsuit was to put the offenders on the witness stand. In a civil lawsuit, depositions can be required in the suing parties Attorneys office and recorded. This testimony then can be used in cross examining the defendant(s) on the witness stand because they cannot plead the fifth amendment and they must testify in a civil lawsuit. This information then can be admitted as evidence in the criminal proceeding, which would have occured if charges where brought against us accused. This was a defense strategy and nothing more. I dropped my lawsuit as soon as I was cleared in Gaylord and in Lapeer. White Knight was considering the same defense strategy but he was cleared around the same time I was. We were in the original 10 that were accused. You would probably feel different about this, if people were trying to put you in prison for the rest of your life. I hope this makes sense. Sincerely, Dave.
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dchaplin
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Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 27, 2008 3:03:07 GMT -5
conventioner New Member
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Joined: Sept 2008 Posts: 10 Re: Michigan « Reply #146 Yesterday at 10:18am »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave- that was a lovely post as Gem said. I appreciate your humbleness in not taking the credit for your spirit, but giving glory to God for what he has done for you. Also, appreciate the reminder of who the real enemy is, and how he seeks to destroy us. Many have been deceived in this Michigan mess. Keep feeding on the Lamb. Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Thanks again for your support!
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 27, 2008 4:33:17 GMT -5
Hey Scott, I'm back requesting some more clarifications, I wonder if you can give me a definition of what you consider to be fair is? Only posting information which is in the public domain in regards to ongoing court issues, information from other public sources such as newspapers or television news sources. Records held by school system counselors which are made available to the public regarding reports turned in. Information given by public officials. SO THAN, YOUR DEFINITION OF FAIR IS TO POST INFORMATION THAT IS ONLY SPECULATION AND HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE, WHICH YOU ALSO VALIDATED BY POSTING IN YOUR OWN WORDS. IT IS TRUE YOU DIDN'T USE ANYONES NAMES, HOWEVER IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE WHO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. IT IS IMPLIED BY YOU VALIDATING IT IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHO THEY ARE. THUS MY STATEMENT OF FALSE ACCUSATIONS, BEING POSTED HERE AND ON YOUR W.I.N.G.S SITE. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT BOTH OF THESE SITES REFER TO THE TRUTH AND ARE SO FAR FROM IT. Who did I falsely accuse? The only thing listed on WINGS were the original news articles which was in the newspaper and a link to the ABC news which reported the investigation. THATS MY POINT, YOU ARE VALIDATING THIS INFORMATION BY POSTING IT UNDER YOUR NAME. Do you consider it fair to compile a list of suspects on your W.I.N.G.S. web site? If you are referring to the names reported in Michigan, those names were not placed in any database because of the involvement in the Michigan case. There were names that came up during the investigation which were linked to other investigations in the past by law enforcement however, but were reported separate of the Michigan case involving the twins. YOUR OWN WORDS. www.wingsfortruth.info/database.htmWINGS maintains a confidential list of sex offenders; convicted, alleged and suspected. The list is solely for the use of the WINGS group members and is not given out to the public. Sources of information remain confidential. This database has several uses. One is to answer legitimate inquires as to whether or not a particular name is on the WINGS list. Another use is to be able to help with legal investigations. Another is to aid victims who elect to press charges. WINGS also uses the database for statistical analysis, particularly in two areas: numbers of CSA offences and movements of Offenders. I question the legality of your form you have people fill out to submit peoples names and personal information, since some forms of chid abuse are considered mental illness by those that inflict it, does your web site comply with the Federal Governments Guidelines for (HIPAA) THE HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT OF 1996 Why do you feel it is illegal to submit names of individuals that are suspected of Child Sexual Abuse? These names are not stored on the WINGS site, but rather used to cross reference with other reports involving the same name. IT IS ILLEGAL TO SUBMIT NAMES OF INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE MENTALLY ILL AND INCOMPETENT. Protected health information (PHI), under the US Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), is ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HEALTH STATUS, provision of health care, or payment for health care that can be LINKED TO AN INDIVIDUAL. THIS IS INTERPRETED RATHER BROADLY AND INCLUDES ANY PART OF A PATIENT'S MEDICAL RECORDS or payment history. Here is a partial list of the 18 identifiers. 1. Names 2. Phone numbers 3. Fax numbers 4. electronic mail addresses 5. Social Security numbers 6. license plate numbers 7. INTERNET PROTOCOL (IP) ADDRESS NUMBERS and the list goes on. I will scan and post the entire list at a later date. IT IS ALSO UNETHICAL TO COMPILE A LIST OF INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY SUSPECTS. My personal belief is it is illegal also but I haven't proven this yet. It could also be pointed out that at no time did the family plead NOT GUILTY to the charges against them, but rather entered a no contest plea. THE ORIGINAL ATTORNEY RECOMENDED A NO CONTEST PLEA TO EXPEDITE THE RETURN OF THE 4 YOUNGER CHILDREN, BUT THE CAMPAIGN OF THE DECEIVED BEGAN AND THE JUDGE STOPPED THAT FROM HAPPENING UNTIL A FULL INVESTIGATION WAS FORTH COMING. Some of the names linked to the separate child sexual abuse case involving the twins remain under investigation at this time. THATS CORRECT, SOME OF THE FALSELY ACCUSED REMAIN UNDER INVESTIGATION, AND MYSELF AND OTHERS SUPPORT THEM. WE WILL TESTIFY IN COURT ON THEIR BEHALF IF NECESSARY, THE TRUTH WILL EVENTUALLY COME OUT AND THERE WILL BE THOSE THAT WILL ANSWER FOR THE ONGOING EVIL OF TRYING TO PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE BEHIND BARS. JESUS WAS DELIVERED TO PILATE BECAUSE OF ENVY, THE SAME APPLYS HERE. ENVY, ILL WILL AND THOSE SEEKING VAIN GLORY. WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE. PSALMS 94; VERSES 21,22 AND 23. THEY GATHER THEMSELVES TOGETHER AGAINST THE SOUL OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND CONDEMN THE INNOCENT BLOOD. BUT THE LORD IS MY DEFENCE; AND MY GOD IS THE ROCK OF MY REFUGE. AND HE SHALL BRING UPON THEM THEIR OWN INIQUITY, AND SHALL CUT THEM OF IN THEIR OWN WICKEDNESS; YEA, THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CUT THEM OFF. I CAN ONLY SAY AMEN TO THAT! All for now, as always, just wondering???!!! Dave.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 6:14:40 GMT -5
I have followed this case with interest since it first turned up on the list --- Yet today I have a hard time to understand why it is so relevant to 2x2ism. I have a hard time (with my limited information) to understand how the 2x2 group can be held responsible even if there turns out to be some kind of a conviction for the 2x2 family involved. --- or am I missing something?
As well, as a teenage refuge home for social services ourselves -- we understand how easy it is for such accusations to "hit the fan". We spend a fair bit of effort to 'guard our backs' against such accusations, if they should arise.
Edgar
My experience is that workers don't usually support friends in cases like this ..... it is only sex abusive workers that enjoy the protection and cover-up capacity of 2x2ism.
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Post by lin on Sept 27, 2008 7:06:05 GMT -5
Edgar I too have followed this case with intense interest. I have heard personally from some of the people affected by it. I feel it is very relevant to 2x2ism.It may take time,but all will come to light. Jesus said "that which is spoken or done in secret will be proclaimed on the housetop".
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 27, 2008 7:48:48 GMT -5
Dave, I too am a WINGS board member and have been from its inception early in 2008.
I'm trying to understand your concern. I find your concern for protecting mentally ill and/or incompetent people admirable, but to go to bat for those who are abusers seems...misplaced.
Is there another reason for your concern about the WINGS List of suspected and convicted Abusers that you havent mentioned? Or that I'm not getting or perhaps missed in reading your posts?
Are you saying that if someone is mentally ill and incompetent YET has abused some children that WINGS should not keep them in their radar? WINGS is all about protecting children--not protecting the mentally incompetent.
As information, there have only been about 2 or 3 people turned into WINGS via the WINGS form. Most seem to prefer to write one of the WINGS Board members about situations they know about, probably bcs it allows them to give more details that way. And of the 2-3 turned in--2 had gone to court and one was violating his restrictions. One was a health professional--definitely competent.
As info, lists of s&c abusers are not a new thing. There were private lists of 2x2 abusers compiled, but never made public, LONG before WINGS began to assimilate its list. I know one list began back in the 1980's after Doug Parkers book The Secret Sect came out.
Only the WINGS board members can view the WINGS list.
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Post by harpsichord on Sept 27, 2008 8:25:53 GMT -5
What I am curious about is this. How many from either side of the fence in this whole mess feel that the F&W's in a general sense have hurt them on a personal and emotional level?
Also are they going to turn the other cheek or expect to see some changes?
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 27, 2008 10:01:58 GMT -5
There is a whole lot more going on than just a false report made by two twins that have been found AT PRESENT, incompetent. These girls have been in the workers custody since the very beginning. The workers said that the girls were 18, and they could make their own decisions. They then said they would take over control of the girls and do as they such pleased. The girls said they wanted to become workers, so therefore they put all of their trust in the workers because that is the way it seemed it should be. Those girls have been bewitched by the workers ever since, as they have not been alone with anyone except who the workers let them be with. Even on the court hearing for their offense, who did the talking for them? Anyone could tell that things were completely out of control and that false statements were being turned in to the police. The girls were incompetent, not the workers turning in those statements. Does that not seem completely out of control? These statements were first against the parents, to have the children removed from the home, to porno, to rape and at last murder! Is this not a troubling pattern? When is someone that is controlling someone not say, this is out of control? Would you not try to help this person instead of keeping to turning in more false garbage?
There is a reason for this. And if the girls are incompetent, are the girls going to talk and say why? Isn't that the scheme of everything? And if things are told, who is going to believe an incompetent person? The people that have control will just skate free. Look at the grief a accused person has to go through. But, don't cause any grief for the person controlling the situation.
Everyone says to have a forgiving spirit. Of course that is the way it seems like it should be. Turn the other check. But, this situation needs to give a stern message to any involved that this will never be tolerated and will be prosecuted if it happens. An accomplice in the eyes of the law is as guilty as the accusers. No one should ever have to go through this again. But the instigators need to be held responsible or they can just do this again with someone else that they can see has a competent problem! Are these the kind of people that you want to represent something that you say will give you eternal life? Because if you want to be deceived, then pretend they can preach the word, but it isn't necessary to life the word. You do not have the right to destroy other people for self gain, whatever that could possibly be!
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Post by degem on Sept 27, 2008 10:37:56 GMT -5
Just a friendly reminder what the Bible says about forgiving.
Matthew 6 v.14 "For if ye forgive their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
Matthew 6V.15 " But if ye forgive not their men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
A thought that has stuck in my mind-I would hate to die with an unforgiving spirit towards another.
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 27, 2008 11:36:14 GMT -5
If someone is against you because of your belief and puts you down, then forgive them for their actions for they know not what they do. If this was another religion, and the preacher or a member of the congregation made these offensive charges, how much would someone say, oh forgive them? One of the ten commandments are THOU SHALT NOT LIE! God will make you answerable to those commandments. Why would you be held responsible for God is love, forgiveness and etc.? Because, you must answer to your own actions when you know what your actions are. God is not going to say, oh I will forgive you as that is the right spirit. First, if you have the right spirit, you are not going to make false charges against someone. So, therefore, you should answer for your actions and not just say, I forgive because that is exactly what the person that made the false charges is hoping for. You treat me different than I did you.
Because this episode has caused a great harm to the religion, I am also wondering how can you worship with someone that would do evil? Isn't that worshiping with the evil? There were ten wise and ten foolish. Are you suppose to worship with the foolish? If they are workers are you to be instructed by the foolish? Should not the evil be removed? Is not the evil responsible for their actions? So, it is wonderful for someone to say, turn the other cheek, but what are you turning the cheek for? If it is a action of evil against your believe, yes, forgive them because they do not understand. If it is an action of evil against your well being, where did God say you must turn the other cheek? He will punish you also for your evil actions. No one needs a cover up for a evil action in the religion that wants everyone to think it is just a big happy family and everyone is on the same page in the same spirit and believing the same. I don't want to be on the page of the evil!
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 27, 2008 11:48:15 GMT -5
A question for Wings. If you say you only saw about 30 names Scott, how was that made known? If the police are investigating a case, how do you fit into the legal aspect of the crime to receive any information for the Wings? Are you part of the law? Because people that were accused aren't even allowed to see the list. Is someone in the law enforcement breaking the law sharing allegations that aren't even proven true or false with an outsider? Has anyone thought about filing a lawsuit against the law enforcement for sharing information and letting people know about a crime that wasn't even committed? There are to many questions that just don't click to me. This list will be never forgotten and why was it made known to so many people? Anything that is not being made available to the public should never be shared with anyone unless they are part of the law that has the right to investigate and question! I would like to know everyone that lives in my neighborhood that has questionable behavior but believe me, I sure will never have that list!
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Post by degem on Sept 27, 2008 12:30:26 GMT -5
We are the ones who make the choice to forgive another. Its an individual choice.
The thought that stuck in my mind- That I WOULD hate to die having an unforgiving spirit towards another" is just HOW I WOULD FEEL IF I DIED LIKE THAT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 12:38:29 GMT -5
Edgar I too have followed this case with intense interest. I have heard personally from some of the people affected by it. I feel it is very relevant to 2x2ism.It may take time,but all will come to light. Jesus said "that which is spoken or done in secret will be proclaimed on the housetop". OK -- I guess it is 'just wait and see' -- I am still in the dark as to the relevance -- but it may turn up. I must be missing something. Edgar
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 27, 2008 13:22:55 GMT -5
Dave, I too am a WINGS board member and have been from its inception early in 2008. I'm trying to understand your concern. I find your concern for protecting mentally ill and/or incompetent people admirable, but to go to bat for those who are abusers seems...misplaced. Is there another reason for your concern about the WINGS List of suspected and convicted Abusers that you havent mentioned? Or that I'm not getting or perhaps missed in reading your posts? Are you saying that if someone is mentally ill and incompetent YET has abused some children that WINGS should not keep them in their radar? WINGS is all about protecting children--not protecting the mentally incompetent. As information, there have only been about 2 or 3 people turned into WINGS via the WINGS form. Most seem to prefer to write one of the WINGS Board members about situations they know about, probably bcs it allows them to give more details that way. And of the 2-3 turned in--2 had gone to court and one was violating his restrictions. One was a health professional--definitely competent. As info, lists of s&c abusers are not a new thing. There were private lists of 2x2 abusers compiled, but never made public, LONG before WINGS began to assimilate its list. I know one list began back in the 1980's after Doug Parkers book The Secret Sect came out. Only the WINGS board members can view the WINGS list.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 27, 2008 16:41:19 GMT -5
bandtroll, the only reason for any lawsuit was to put the offenders on the witness stand. In a civil lawsuit, depositions can be required in the suing parties Attorneys office and recorded. This testimony then can be used in cross examining the defendant(s) on the witness stand because they cannot plead the fifth amendment and they must testify in a civil lawsuit. This information then can be admitted as evidence in the criminal proceeding, which would have occured if charges where brought against us accused. This was a defense strategy and nothing more. I dropped my lawsuit as soon as I was cleared in Gaylord and in Lapeer. White Knight was considering the same defense strategy but he was cleared around the same time I was. We were in the original 10 that were accused. Very valid reason. I haven't said much about how I 'feel' about this case, and I doubt it would change how I feel, unless the facts were on their side. I do know people who have been accused, and I do understand what having this on ones record can mean. (But 'Rest of your life' is just a slight exaggeration, right?) Yes, what you were trying to do makes sence, thanks for the input. ========= EDITED TO ADD ================= Dave, Mod 3 edited out your list of accusations against you. ... The idea of life in prison based on what you were accused of is not out of question. Scott
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Post by lin on Sept 27, 2008 19:15:25 GMT -5
What is the make up of the Wings Board? Are there people on the board that are a part of the "Truth" Fellowship ? Are any of the board members actually abuse victims within the "Truth" Fellowship? How were they chosen to be on the board? Are any on the board accredited in child abuse counseling? Your mission statement says
WINGS has been created by victims/survivors who have suffered sexual abuse within the "Truth" Fellowship along with individuals who have been both directly and indirectly impacted by CSA. Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance to every individual on every aspect of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA), and to shed light on the prevalence of these abuses within the fellowship. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the group in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs when CSA is minimized and or ultimately ignored.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Sept 27, 2008 20:18:59 GMT -5
Edgar I too have followed this case with intense interest. I have heard personally from some of the people affected by it. I feel it is very relevant to 2x2ism.It may take time,but all will come to light. Jesus said "that which is spoken or done in secret will be proclaimed on the housetop". OK -- I guess it is 'just wait and see' -- I am still in the dark as to the relevance -- but it may turn up. I must be missing something. Edgar Edgar; one of the main reasons you are missing something is because of the distortion game that has been going on. There are so many threads with bits of truth in them; the rest is here say and or mud slinging. Coupled, with, the desperation of a cover up.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Sept 27, 2008 20:37:13 GMT -5
Just a friendly reminder what the Bible says about forgiving. Matthew 6 v.14 "For if ye forgive their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." Matthew 6V.15 " But if ye forgive not their men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." A thought that has stuck in my mind-I would hate to die with an unforgiving spirit towards another. Hello Gem you are right to a degree. But one thing I have learned (not saying you) there are those who love to manipulate the bible to suit there needs, purpose, desire, etc, etc. That includes especially in this case workers. This is not the first time I've seen this happen. And they know we know. And we will put a stop to this matter. It will be better for them to give an account of their doings here than having to at the other END.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 27, 2008 20:45:08 GMT -5
lin, This has been gone over before on the board. What is the make up of the Wings Board?There are 7 of us. Are there people on the board that are a part of the "Truth" Fellowship ? Yes Are any of the board members actually abuse victims within the "Truth" Fellowship? Yes How were they chosen to be on the board? By their willingness to want to help deal with the issue of CSA within the truth fellowship. Are any on the board accredited in child abuse counseling?2 have degrees in psychology, but no to your answer. Here is a bit more detail on our group make up. This hasn't been made public before this time, but maybe will clear up some questions in regards to whether we are qualified to understand what goes on in regards to Child Abuse, and the impact such abuse has upon members of the truth fellowship: The WINGS GROUP is made up of 7 individuals.
We are: 3 men and 4 women; All 6 of us were Born-and-Raised in the meetings to professing parents
Some of us were 3rd generation, some 4th generation All of us have family who attend meetings.
3 were raised with meeting in our parents homes
We have in the work: 2 siblings, 7 cousins; Former workers: 2 siblings, 6 cousins and a great uncle
3 of us had meeting in our home.
2 of us have been alternate elders
1 of us was raised on a convention ground
3 of us and 2 of our children have been sexually abused within “the truth” (twice for 2 of us)
1 of us has an ex-wife whose was molested by her father and Grandfather (and her 4 sisters)
1 of us intervened in grandson’s improper invitation by a worker.
1 of our Mothers was molested by her foster father who was a meeting elder and convention ground owner. We are: 6 married with children; 3 are grandparents and 1 a single parent.
We are: a teacher, an architect designer, an abstractor, a postal employee, a clinical psychology counselor and 2 housewives/mothers of children at home; a disabled Army Veteran.
We have: 1 degree in education; 2 degrees in psychology, 1 working on psychology degree; 1 Technical Arts (Construction) degree
We have backgrounds in: Military Intelligence (EWSIGINT), criminal justice, CASA (court appointed special advocate); being self employed;linguistics, political science, history, teaching
We speak some: Czechoslovakian, German, French, Spanish, Gaelic We are readers, gardeners, rock collectors, travelers, artist in oil; who enjoy cooking, motor cycling, writing, roller blading, biking, hiking, camping, scrap booking, photography, child crafts, swimming, socializing Your mission statement says
WINGS has been created by victims/survivors who have suffered sexual abuse within the "Truth" Fellowship along with individuals who have been both directly and indirectly impacted by CSA.
Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance to every individual on every aspect of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA), and to shed light on the prevalence of these abuses within the fellowship. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the group in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs when CSA is minimized and or ultimately ignored.Yes that is our mission statement. WINGS was originally brought in to existence because of the involvement of several people from both sides of the '2x2 fence'. After Tim Severud was arrested here in Minnesota, several people got together on another board (after TMB got shut down) and in a password protected area brainstormed and shared thoughts and ideas about what was needed. The make up of that group of people was roughly 50/50 in regards to those professing and those who are exes. Many of those involved were similar to the make up of the current WINGS group in the fact that they or family members had experienced Child Sexual Abuse at the hands of workers (and others) in the truth fellowship. Because of the way these issues were handled in the past, it was decided that a web site should be created where those who had been abused could go for answers and support concerning issues of CSA. It was also determined that it would be detrimental to have many of the members of WINGS be currently professing individuals due to the pressure that could be brought on them from inside the fellowship to divulge names and circumstances surrounding confidentiality issues. This is unfortunate, but most will understand the reason this is so. It should be pointed out that of those who have been informing WINGS of CSA issues (both past and present) within the truth fellowship, most of the information has come from those who are still professing.This includes some who are currently elders in meetings, and also workers who want these issues dealt with, and dealt with openly and correctly as is consistent with the laws of the land. Although some still seem to look at WINGS as 'another anti-truth site', we have no desire to bring discredit upon the fellowship. The stories that are posted there are ugly, but true. They are written by those who have personally suffered abuse by members of the fellowship, and written in their own style of writing and are personal to them. Some of these people are now exes, and some of those are what could be labeled as 'bitter exes'. Of all those who make up the WINGS group, I would have to say that I am the one with the least amount of knowledge in CSA issues, as there have been no CSA issues in regards to the fellowship in my immediate family. I hope this clears up some of your questions. A few questions for you. Do you feel there is a need for the WINGS site given the fact that the issues of CSA have been covered up and smoothed over in the past by moving workers to other fields and not notifying the authorities? Do you feel that the truth fellowship should set up its own site where people could get the correct information as to how to deal with CSA when it happens to them? (and how would you think it should be run) Do you feel that the workers have correctly handled CSA issues within the fellowship? Do you think that WINGS is a good resource for those seeking information concerning CSA issues within the fellowship? If you could change how WINGS is run, what would you change and why? Thanks for answering. Scott
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Post by lin on Sept 27, 2008 21:19:27 GMT -5
Scott: I'm not ignoring you. I appreciate your forthright reply. I do feel the questions you asked are not to be taken lightly. There has to be an answer,that is right and fair to those who have gone through this terrible experience. We have to be careful though that the accused don't become the abused. I will answer those questions tomorrow or Monday. I feel this is something that should taken to the place of prayer.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Sept 27, 2008 22:15:00 GMT -5
Scot; thanks for taking heed and making changes. AS furtherance to our conversation, the accused parents in this case were neither arrested nor were they charged. But, were, asked, to come in due to accusations brought forth against them. Things snow balled from there. So any mention, of the parents, being arrested or charged. Can and or most likely become a liability suit. And if I may add, anyone put on a list because of here say or one deemed as (or found) innocent. Can and will carry a penalty. There is nothing wrong in gathering facts, it is another thing of falsifying or even still the danger of turning into a which hunt as so often happens. Your ambition is I believe well intended, so long as the right motive prevails. However, it is like I said, equally dangerous, if any of these thing should fall into the wrong hands or even taken over by another. In the which; another’s interpretation may not be the same as yours or the others. That in part is why the government has a sex offender’s registry. This to is not however foul proof and is subject to the, afore mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 1:43:58 GMT -5
OK -- I guess it is 'just wait and see' -- I am still in the dark as to the relevance -- but it may turn up. I must be missing something. Edgar Edgar; one of the main reasons you are missing something is because of the distortion game that has been going on. There are so many threads with bits of truth in them; the rest is here say and or mud slinging. Coupled, with, the desperation of a cover up. Thanks -- It may be easier to figure out when the legal process has run its course - At the moment not very much relevant information seems to be coming up. Edgar
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 28, 2008 8:45:22 GMT -5
Howdy White Knight, You posted: AS furtherance to our conversation, the accused parents in this case were neither arrested nor were they charged. But, were, asked, to come in due to accusations brought forth against them. Things snow balled from there. So any mention, of the parents, being arrested or charged. Can and or most likely become a liability suit.I guess I should try to clear some things up again here in regards to the invovlement of WINGS. I have read back through the Michigan Abuse Case thread at professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=9289&page=1 and I see no mention of me saying that the family was arrested and charged. In fact I made it clear that there had been no arrests in the case. From my original post: As Michigan State Police Lt. Patrick McGreevy stated “No warrants have been issued.” And if I may add, anyone put on a list because of here say or one deemed as (or found) innocent. Can and will carry a penalty. There is nothing wrong in gathering facts, it is another thing of falsifying or even still the danger of turning into a which hunt as so often happens. Again I posted the following in the original post: Two of these workers were removed for issues unrelated to the current investigation, but are linked to this investigation. The 3rd worker has voluntarily stepped down as a worker during the current investigation. He maintains that he has done nothing wrong, and his stepping down is for the good of the fellowship at this pointThis was to point out that the one worker who stepped down was maintaining his innocence and that the two workers previously removed were due to unrelated issues. (but I also did not say that they were guilty or charged with anything.) Your ambition is I believe well intended, so long as the right motive prevails. However, it is like I said, equally dangerous, if any of these thing should fall into the wrong hands or even taken over by another. In the which; another’s interpretation may not be the same as yours or the others. That in part is why the government has a sex offender’s registry. This to is not however foul proof and is subject to the, afore mentioned.Of course a sex offender registry is complied of those who have been convicted of sexual abuse. The infromation we receive is not on the WINGS site. "Protective services did substantiate a degree of physical and some mental abuse," said Lapeer County Prosecutor Byron Konschuh.These were the issues which the family faced. They were not arrested due to these issues, but this is what got the children removed from the home and placed in foster care. The court then placed some requirements on the family in order for them to get the children returned. "Whether that rose to the level of crossing the line into criminal activity, we did not feel there was enough there to charge crimes."The family was not charged with a crime. The no contest plea was concerning the use of excessive discipline. Court records reveal the Department of Human Services concluded the parents used excessive discipline involving a belt, whip and hammer.This was from court records. Last October, the parents pleaded no contest in a civil case, handing their four younger children over to foster care. "There are additional allegations that have come forward as a result of the counseling sessions," Konschuh said. "What those allegations would involve is pretty complex."This is a referrence to the sexual abuse issues. The twins no face charges of false reporting regarding this issue, and they were arrested, charged and released. Their court case is pending. A statement from the family lawyer: "To the extent that those allegations involve my clients, we dispute them entirely," said defense attorney Michael Cronkright.
Cronkright represents the parents.
"My clients have passed now six polygraphs asking questions about the various allegations," he said.
Cronkright says the goal is to be reunited with their children.
"My clients wanted to be parents. They love their family. Not only do I maintain that, but the court has ruled that my clients have done everything that has been asked of them," he said.
"They have been in counseling. They've done parenting time. They have done psychological evaluations."The parents complied with everything the court ruled, and the 4 children have been returned to them. This whole case in regards t o the family should be wrapped up at the final hearing in November. The purpose of that hearing is mostly a formality to clear up a few remaining items from the last court hearing. "One of the biggest challenges is just sifting through the volume of information and trying to determine fact from fiction," said Michigan State Police Lt. Patrick McGreevy.It appears that this has been done. The issues being brought up here on the board recently are concerning the allegations brought forth by the twins. Since they have been charged with making false reports, those allegations seem to be deemed by the authorities to have been made falsely. As with the issues facing he family, we need to wait for the court proceedings to take place. Again, I think that there are some here that are mixing up the two different issues which were being investigated by the authorities. The first was in regards to the family and involved child abuse. The second was Child Sexual Abuse which was a separate investigation, and has ended with the arrest of the twins. That is going through the curt system now. Not sure if this cleared anything up or not... Scott
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Post by harpsichord on Sept 28, 2008 8:57:22 GMT -5
Whether that rose to the level of crossing the line into criminal activity, we did not feel there was enough there to charge crimes."
Court records reveal the Department of Human Services concluded the parents used excessive discipline involving a belt, whip and hammer.
This was from court records.
Just a passing observation in what is stated above; People do not go to court without having a charge leveled against them. The issue of criminal or civil is the point. Obviously there must have been a civil charge leveled to be able to plead no contest.
OK I will get out of this discussion now.
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