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Post by spiderman on Apr 19, 2009 9:47:41 GMT -5
Hi Scott, All my life I've had this nagging feeling that there was really only one temple cleansing by Jesus at the end of his ministry. John of course records it at the beginning, while the rest record it in a more chronological way toward the end. The same things happen and the same things are said in all. It's just always made more sense to me that John just recorded it out of order, as he did many things, instead of thinking there were two separate instances. What do you think? Tim you can email me too if you want. tchipman@wmtel.net
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Post by spiderman on Apr 21, 2009 14:36:47 GMT -5
this must be a really slow board, or this is a very dumb topic!
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 21, 2009 15:27:33 GMT -5
Just a really slow dumb moderator!!! ;D I have been reading up on this, and haven't had time to respond. To be honest, I never realized that there was a belief that there were TWO temple cleansings, but it is apparent that there are quite a few people that feel Jesus did this twice. At the moment, I tend to go with the Luke account, as he mentioned that he was going to write the story of Jesus in chronological order. The conflict appears to be with the account in John. I'll write more later! Your dumb, slow moderator.... Scott
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Post by spiderman on Apr 21, 2009 19:00:06 GMT -5
Thanks Scott................ I'm really thinking it was just one time, told out of place by John, who never claimed his gospel was chronological. I really don't think your slow or dumb! ;D
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on May 19, 2009 14:31:19 GMT -5
If you want my opinion, it is this. John does not attempt to write chronologically. He proved that with Revelation, which is written in the order of one final Temple sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.
The Synoptic Gospels hint that Jesus made only one, fateful, trip to Jerusalem (I assume other than the normal trips for required festivals)...they give no indication that Jesus' ministry lasted longer than a year. Our understanding that Jesus ministered for three years is based on John's chronology, which is in my opinion a mistake, since in my opinion John gives multiple hints that he is taking liberties with the order of events.
John continues Revelation's theme of the fulfillment of the Jewish holidays into John (yeah, I believe Revelation was written first). I'm not clear on why John chose the order he did in his Gospel, but he already shows a lack of concern about chronology. There are three passover scenes in John:
1. The temple cleansing 2. The miraculous feeding which he says is a bit prior to the festival. 3. The final passover during which Jesus is killed.
I believe they are all the same passover. Surely John knew the Temple cleansing is what led to Jesus' arrest.
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Post by spiderman on May 28, 2009 17:32:33 GMT -5
If you want my opinion, it is this. John does not attempt to write chronologically. He proved that with Revelation, which is written in the order of one final Temple sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. The Synoptic Gospels hint that Jesus made only one, fateful, trip to Jerusalem (I assume other than the normal trips for required festivals)...they give no indication that Jesus' ministry lasted longer than a year. Our understanding that Jesus ministered for three years is based on John's chronology, which is in my opinion a mistake, since in my opinion John gives multiple hints that he is taking liberties with the order of events. John continues Revelation's theme of the fulfillment of the Jewish holidays into John (yeah, I believe Revelation was written first). I'm not clear on why John chose the order he did in his Gospel, but he already shows a lack of concern about chronology. There are three passover scenes in John: 1. The temple cleansing 2. The miraculous feeding which he says is a bit prior to the festival. 3. The final passover during which Jesus is killed. I believe they are all the same passover. Surely John knew the Temple cleansing is what led to Jesus' arrest. You may be right on all points. John's gospel is so very different from the others. The words he gives to Jesus don't sound like the same Christ speaking as in the other three. The message is there but the wording is John's, (I think)
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Post by sapphire on Jul 23, 2009 0:03:11 GMT -5
This has always bugged me. If temples and church buildings are such evil places, then why did Jesus care so much about what was going on in this temple? He CARED that it had been turned into a market place instead of a place of worship and prayer. He CARED enough to take action, to throw out all the bums and merchants!
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 5, 2009 8:13:10 GMT -5
God is Holy. He is pure. Without sin. Where ever the place of worship is becomes spiritually a Holy sanctuary with his presence. The Patriarchs worshiped and offered up a spotless lamb or goat. They loved and revered and feared God. Because of their obedience he blessed them and didnt curse them. When you have a lack of worship/praise/reverence and allow things of the world into the place of worship you will have trouble and probably more than you can handle. Jesus whipping the money changers is not the first and last time it will happen. We are close to the day when the Ananias and saphira experince will be seen again. If we do not fear the Lord now in that day we will.
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Post by GodIsLove on Oct 13, 2009 13:44:16 GMT -5
This has always bugged me. If temples and church buildings are such evil places, then why did Jesus care so much about what was going on in this temple? He CARED that it had been turned into a market place instead of a place of worship and prayer. He CARED enough to take action, to throw out all the bums and merchants! Yeah, I've been thinking about that and other parts in the NT where it speaks of our body being His temple. Jesus certainly did care about what people were doing in the temple- he called it his Father's house. There's a contradiction when we say that God hates temples and churches built for Him, because Jesus called the temple His Father's house. Jesus didn't hate the building. He hated those who were making it into something other than true worship of the Father in spirit and in truth. I feel the scripture has really been revealed to me in this lately- that our focus is wrong if it's on a physical location.. it needs to be on our Father, because He seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. John 2: 13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"
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Post by shushy on Oct 15, 2009 5:23:43 GMT -5
We are the temple of the holy spirit he is within each one of us who are bornagain of the spirit of God. Out of our relationship with him we worship in spirit and in truth. He abides with us as we abide with him. www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9UBxa_jRMo&feature=related
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