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Post by Sharon on Apr 19, 2009 8:27:02 GMT -5
I suppose the only "proof" of repentence would be they "divorce" the remarriage partner? What does that prove, other then a separation and often there are children involved....that doesn't really make good sense to separate another family....just keep separating people, disregard any children involved. Yes, there may have been children of the previous marriage, but generally they are beginning to accept the situation that they have 2 homes now though most children would love for their natural parents to stay together. I don't think you'll find the older children from the previous marriage so selfish as to wish their half brothers and sisters to face the same problems and emotions they've faced now do you. Repenting isn't always evident to a naked human eye.....I can vouch for that....sometimes the "price paid in private" is far more extenuous then a simple second divorce! We have NO way of knowing what lies in the heart and lives of people regardless of who and what they are or have done. It again is man judging to ask some D&R couple to "repent" and only thing to accept they've repented is another divorce. That isn't right either! It just perpuates the problem of human lust getting ahold again! There does seem to be a growing propensity among some workers to prohibit marrying....no marriage among their peers and no marriage among those who've had marital problems and divorced.......I'm not sure that is much an answer to the woes that assail human nature. Think about it....not everybody has the power in their body to make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom and God didn't intend it that way at all......I think He preferred that people married because of a respectful relationship and love between the 2 parties.....He really wants the natural union of man and woman to be a type and foreshadow of the marriage of Christ and His bride! I know it don't make good sense as far as we are concerned but the point is what God's will is what matters. We heard in our meeting tonight about choices made and if we make choices in the beginning without God's imput we could be looking at disaster. You know, Kiwi! I've had the same sermons preached toward me and others for most of my life....But I AM learning that that is "fear" tactics.....to really "instill" the right spirit in people, these things must be approached from a positive viewpoint. Otherwords it's like I was told at a seminar for "poets", and that was poets who were already published and recognized.....the professor of English from Harvard told us....."If you offer a critique on someone else's poem, song, you need to also offer a solution to what your critiquing....it doesn't mean they have to take your solution but at least you're not cutting them off at the knees without putting a positive direction in front of them." This works in any direction....if we really want to help someone, we do not "cut them off at the knees" without offering them a positive direction for them to take. Instilling fear is no way to help people and most often it does make people inwardly rebell because they're made to feel less the adequate by someone else who is also less then adequate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 9:21:50 GMT -5
Very true Sharon. When a preacher "preaches down" to an individual in a crowd, I wouldn't hesitate to call that an abusive tactic, let alone very ineffective. It may work to force a hypocritical change in a naive person, but otherwise it does little but destroy the soul.
I think you are right on, never criticize without being prepared to offer a real solution, and be prepared to support and demonstrate the healthy benefits of the solution.
Most of us were brought up on a gospel of far too much "what's wrong" and far too little of a gospel of "what's right".
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 19, 2009 11:33:19 GMT -5
In some societies infanticide--a sacrifice to god--was common. Not so with God's people. I am not sure "God's people" outgrew this phase any faster than the average society.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 19, 2009 15:28:05 GMT -5
I know a woman with two very active preschool age boys who gave up her independence and a rather lucrative career in order to be a wife/mother, care for a home, cook, clean, do laundry, change diapers, wait on her husband, deal with his in-laws, raise her kids in a conservative Christian environment on an anemic budget.
Likely there are days when she'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to give up all this wild, hedonistic living, divorce her husband, drop her kids in day-care, focus on her own career, spend her money as she pleases and be free to do whatever she wants on Friday night.
In fact... perhaps I should conjure up an ex-husband of my own so I'll have a ready made excuse in case I need a way out...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D freespirit
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Post by kiwi on Apr 19, 2009 16:11:39 GMT -5
Ok I understand that but doesn't that in that case put those laws at odds with Gods laws/will? No, I like to think that the thoughts I have are God directed. I see what you are saying but does that negate Gods rules/law/will? Yes because they disobey Gods law/will and form their own to suit their own nature. mans rules. Good rules=Good behaviour. Gods rules/will. How does the church encourage marital breakup? How does the church not care if children are separated from their parents? Please detail these disgusting examples of a system of rules gone bad?
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Post by kiwi on Apr 19, 2009 16:32:36 GMT -5
She had no sin only David but their baby paid the price. That's going a little overboard there. I agree let God take care of it. enough said.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 19, 2009 16:36:16 GMT -5
"How does the church encourage marital breakup?" If a couple are D&R, in order to get back into the privileges of going to mtg., taking part, taking the bread and wine; they have been told when they have directly asked, that the only way they'd be considered "free" to take part would be if they were to "leave" the REMARRIED spouse!
"How does the church not care if children are separated from their parents?" In asking these D&R couples to separate and divorce, sometimes there have been children from that marriage. Is that not separating a whole family?
"Please detail these disgusting examples of a system of rules gone bad?" There are many cases I do not know about....but we had a lady who'd gone to Ca. for health reasons who was D&R with a small child...she was not allowed to take part, not allowed to take the bread and wine. But the small child asked "Why, mommy, can you not do as the others do?" Do you think that the truthful answer to this child would be conducive to making that child feel very loving towards God? I do not....I suspect if the lady and her husband have NOT quit going to mtgs. anyway, that in time that child will learn to "hate" God and anyone that appears "godly". It happens all too frequently. Children are our eternal hope on this earth as long as it is here and we'd like for all children to grow up knowing what loving and being merciful are by the examples they're around in their forming years. That's just a human fact.
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Apr 19, 2009 17:06:02 GMT -5
Okay, after 6 pages I shall interject with my experience..............
When my husband and I professed.............he had professed before, I never had........he had been married before (several times)...........I had been married once before.................
The workers brought us together and asked us what was the reason for our divorce. They, the workers, also asked my husband if he had ever had an affair during his marriages, and then they asked me, if I had ever had an affair during my marriage. Being the good little 2x2ers that we were we HAD to respond honestly, so the answer was, yes...............
What was their motive, in your opinion..........I have mine and you have yours....... er, kinda like........um, elbows? (I'll be nice, for once)
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terry
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Post by terry on Apr 19, 2009 17:36:34 GMT -5
Okay, after 6 pages I shall interject with my experience.............. When my husband and I professed.............he had professed before, I never had........he had been married before (several times)...........I had been married once before................. The workers brought us together and asked us what was the reason for our divorce. They, the workers, also asked my husband if he had ever had an affair during his marriages, and then they asked me, if I had ever had an affair during my marriage. Being the good little 2x2ers that we were we HAD to respond honestly, so the answer was, yes............... What was their motive, in your opinion..........I have mine and you have yours....... er, kinda like........um, elbows? (I'll be nice, for once) because they wanted to know all the details? When I remarried my wife was RC and in order for her to recieve communion (sanctioned communion---the priest does NOT make the choice whether or not to give the communion. With the instances of politicians being denied communion it was because of thier public difience of church teachings) I went thru the "annulment" process which looks at existing state of mind and actions of both parties prior to the marriage. And a rendering of annulment does not imply that children are now illigetiment. In my case I was readily granted annulment. If it had not been granted, I would still have been accepted into the church and recieving communion would have officially discouraged, but would have been considered a decision between myself and God. I would not have been allowed to hold any position of responsibility within the church however. Seems a reasonable way to handle things.
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Post by rjs on Apr 19, 2009 17:49:47 GMT -5
We heard in our meeting tonight about choices made and if we make choices in the beginning without God's imput we could be looking at disaster. *** Kiwi, is God's input seen on the same level as your overseer's input?If and when they are one and the same, then follow your overseer. Otherwise don't follow him. Disaster means "losing out and facing a lost eternity?" I wished the workers would explain what they mean. I mean how about workers who have "left their place" and gone bad?
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Apr 19, 2009 17:58:02 GMT -5
Okay, after 6 pages I shall interject with my experience.............. When my husband and I professed.............he had professed before, I never had........he had been married before (several times)...........I had been married once before................. The workers brought us together and asked us what was the reason for our divorce. They, the workers, also asked my husband if he had ever had an affair during his marriages, and then they asked me, if I had ever had an affair during my marriage. Being the good little 2x2ers that we were we HAD to respond honestly, so the answer was, yes............... What was their motive, in your opinion..........I have mine and you have yours....... er, kinda like........um, elbows? (I'll be nice, for once) because they wanted to know all the details? When I remarried my wife was RC and in order for her to recieve communion (sanctioned communion---the priest does NOT make the choice whether or not to give the communion. With the instances of politicians being denied communion it was because of thier public difience of church teachings) I went thru the "annulment" process which looks at existing state of mind and actions of both parties prior to the marriage. And a rendering of annulment does not imply that children are now illigetiment. In my case I was readily granted annulment. If it had not been granted, I would still have been accepted into the church and recieving communion would have officially discouraged, but would have been considered a decision between myself and God. I would not have been allowed to hold any position of responsibility within the church however. Seems a reasonable way to handle things. Are you saying it is a resonable way to handle things in your religion or in the religion of 2x2's........by the way, I am very interested in being Catholic if I ever embrace Christianity again......just so you know...........
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Post by Sharon on Apr 19, 2009 18:11:55 GMT -5
Okay, after 6 pages I shall interject with my experience.............. When my husband and I professed.............he had professed before, I never had........he had been married before (several times)...........I had been married once before................. The workers brought us together and asked us what was the reason for our divorce. They, the workers, also asked my husband if he had ever had an affair during his marriages, and then they asked me, if I had ever had an affair during my marriage. Being the good little 2x2ers that we were we HAD to respond honestly, so the answer was, yes............... What was their motive, in your opinion..........I have mine and you have yours....... er, kinda like........um, elbows? (I'll be nice, for once) It comes down to sharing salicious words, IMO! It is NONE of their business....perhaps they feel it is, so they can make righteous judgment....but it is not their's to make....I feel that it is too bad that such couples can not think to ask the workers a very direct questions in regard "Didn't Jesus die for the sins of all mankind?" And then "What sin is "unforgiveable" by Biblical standards?" Those two questions should put the right "mind" within anyone wanting to know the "facts" behind all the behaviors......this is kind of like "confessing to the priests"! What in the world can the priests do for our sins with confession that he cannot do without confession? Nothing but pray for the sinner, as he should pray for them anyway! JMO
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Apr 19, 2009 18:16:49 GMT -5
Thank siwells, for your opinion........much appreciated............
I feel the workers were trying to feel us out, as my hubby was much needed in the area as an elder and they wanted to "do the right thing"............if our spouses had went out on us, had an affair, etc., then somehow we would be vindicated in the positions we were needing to hold and be responsible for.............I wish I knew then what I knew now.............how many times can a person say that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 18:20:35 GMT -5
Thank siwells, for your opinion........much appreciated............ I feel the workers were trying to feel us out, as my hubby was much needed in the area as an elder and they wanted to "do the right thing"............if our spouses had went out on us, had an affair, etc., then somehow we would be vindicated in the positions we were needing to hold and be responsible for.............I wish I knew then what I knew now.............how many times can a person say that? I think you have it right pink. They were trying to justify you. If they were about to install you as elders, they would have surely faced complaints about your worthiness. They wanted to be ready to back up their decision by being able to portray you and your husband as the victims. Politics again......
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Post by emy on Apr 19, 2009 19:09:33 GMT -5
Having God's input in all our life decisions IS the most positive solution to being faced with disaster down the road.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 19, 2009 19:19:28 GMT -5
Having God's input in all our life decisions IS the most positive solution to being faced with disaster down the road. I've known of folks asking God's help in making a decision of any magnitude and they never seem to get an understanding what God really wanted in the issue and the time came for them to make the decision and still no real answer from God. What were they to do? Sometimes God doesn't answer such prayers for the simple reason He understands our hearts and our minds much better then we know our own...thereby He knows that IF He should indicate AGAINST what we're thinking and feeling, that most likely either we're going to ignore Him anyway or we're going to always have that big question in our mind "What IF?" God desires us to use our minds and hearts or He would not have given them to us. He knows all too well our frailities in our minds and hearts....but even IF we make a wrong decision that comes to light at some given time later...God certainly isn't going to hold it over our head about the "bad" decision we made. Satan will, but not God.....God knows all too well how letting the past's mistakes can keep us beat down and He has NO interest in such a thing....He always wants us to be looking upward, not backward.
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Post by JO on Apr 19, 2009 21:01:58 GMT -5
How does the church encourage marital breakup? How does the church not care if children are separated from their parents? Please detail these disgusting examples of a system of rules gone bad? If D&R folks want to speak, pray, and share the emblems in meeting in most parts of the world they are expected to separate - whether or not they have children to their union. Workers don't fret about how many sexual relationships folks have had in the past, but if they've signed a marriage certificate with any former partner they are deemed to be living in sin with their subsequent spouse. This is an attack on marriage - young folks are advised to not marry their sexual partner so they can be accepted into the church if they profess later on with a different partner. Workers discriminate against those who have done the decent thing and married their sexual partner. Also, some divorced folks have illicit sex rather than marry, because they know they won't be accepted by the church if they make it legal. Those who live in sin, then break up, then marry are accepted. However those who marry, then break up, then marry are treated like lepers. How can this doctrine be of God? Through their legalistic stance the workers effectively uphold living in sin as better than legal marriage.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 19, 2009 21:16:12 GMT -5
"Through their legalistic stance the workers effectively uphold living in sin as better than legal marriage. "
Perhaps a blind eye is turned to such things as it isn't really occurring, but when marriage is made then it is known.......somehow, if people could just "live" together and not "allow" their marital status be known to anyone, then it didn't occur perhaps though it really did! What a tangled web we weave, eh?
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Post by someguy on Apr 19, 2009 21:48:34 GMT -5
If D&R folks want to speak, pray, and share the emblems in meeting in most parts of the world they are expected to separate - whether or not they have children to their union. Workers don't fret about how many sexual relationships folks have had in the past, but if they've signed a marriage certificate with any former partner they are deemed to be living in sin with their subsequent spouse. This is an attack on marriage - young folks are advised to not marry their sexual partner so they can be accepted into the church if they profess later on with a different partner. Workers discriminate against those who have done the decent thing and married their sexual partner. Also, some divorced folks have illicit sex rather than marry, because they know they won't be accepted by the church if they make it legal. Those who live in sin, then break up, then marry are accepted. However those who marry, then break up, then marry are treated like lepers. How can this doctrine be of God? Through their legalistic stance the workers effectively uphold living in sin as better than legal marriage. This doctrine is not of God, it is of men. It is from men, who are not free to marry according to only their rules so how could they possibly allow people who have already failed once, another opportunity when they aren't even allowed one? How could they possibly allow grace extended to sinners when they are with out sin? Oh dear, our perfect workers, trying to execute judgment on us sinning friends. It is rather sad. Trouble is, workers fail to realize it is not God that forbids them to marry but themselves. So, we are left with people who know nothing about marriage from personal experience, full of advice to those whose first marriage failed. It is disgusting really. Ready to condemn and tell them they can never marry again. They must pay the price for their sin. sigh... In reality, people defend workers, which I understand because they are only saved through workers. I for one don't defend this condemnation of divorced and remarried folks because I am a sinner. I believe Jesus saves not workers. Defend the workers if you must people, with your skewed understanding, but know this, we all our sinners. For those who think those who are remarried are living in sin....are not we all living in sin? Can any married man honestly say he has never once thought something towards another woman....that is adultery. Apparently that doesn't count because no one knows it though. sigh....I much more appreciate those who don't judge. Interpret the bible as you will, judge others as you will, but remember God is merciful, even if you aren't.
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Post by JO on Apr 19, 2009 22:08:43 GMT -5
Good post someguy.
Someone told me once "workers cannot guarantee the salvation of D&R people".
Hello???
Can they guarantee anyone's salvation?
This is the problem though - folks look to the workers as their security, rather than a relationship with God himself through the precious blood of Christ our redeemer.
Workers feel responsible for those they "let into the kingdom", and believe they will be answerable to God for this.
They fail to realize God alone knows who are his and workers should be more concerned about those who they hinder.
There is way too much immorality and ungodliness beneath the surface of this church, yet the workers go around trying to make the surface look good.
Is it any wonder Jesus said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees"?
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 19, 2009 22:21:03 GMT -5
This older couple 70& in our town D&R was asked to live separately and they obeyed the workers without questioning. One week we went camping in the rockies. guess who pulled in close to our site , they apologized saying " you know at our age we sleep in separate beds etc. We made them feel at ease telling them how much we disagree with the edict of the workers .and had some good visits together lesson learned legalism breeds hypocrites
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Post by someguy on Apr 19, 2009 22:48:16 GMT -5
This older couple 70& in our town D&R was asked to live separately and they obeyed the workers without questioning. One week we went camping in the rockies. guess who pulled in close to our site , they apologized saying " you know at our age we sleep in separate beds etc. We made them feel at ease telling them how much we disagree with the edict of the workers .and had some good visits together lesson learned legalism breeds hypocritesThe saddest thing about this experience is they didn't believe the workers nor do they believe what they say is righteous, so they have to appear to be righteous but behind closed doors they live as they feel God has convicted them. I just wish more people would live with integrity. Live according to how they are convicted, not according to how others say. Workers are human and have a human understanding about many of these things so if you don't agree tell them so, and live according to your own conviction. sigh...not likely to happen.
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 19, 2009 23:00:43 GMT -5
We just learned of a couple in their thirties who recently married ( both divorced) were asked not to attend any meetings by the overseer.
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Post by scarletto on Apr 19, 2009 23:06:39 GMT -5
I will share some of my background on this as well as I think that helps people understand what I write better. I have been more of an observer of divorce and remarriage than anything. Having been raised in a very STRICT religious atmosphere; and "good Christian home" I, too thought I had to be the perfect Christian. Dad was a deacon of the church and as such us kids were expected to behave well and above everyone else because he didn't want to lose his deacon status. But, it wasn't Dad who was the most attached to being a deacon and having that status; it was my mom. She was the one that seemed so uptight about everything...as if we made one misstep we would bring the whole entire family DOWN. We had a reputation to uphold not just in the church but in the community. Such PRESSURE for a kid is not pleasant, but hey, I tell myself that it could have been worse. So, mom and dad had pretty high standards. We had to be good little Christians, we had to be good students; we were expected to excel at what we did; if one of us was even slightly overweight Dad made comments. I don't know if his comments about being overweight is what led one of us into obesity. Obesity does not run in our family but enjoying food does run in our family, especially in the older ones. Most of us kids didn't have a weight problem at all for the longest time. We kept BUSY leading the perfect little life of excellence....we were too busy to get fat. But I felt for my one sister, because she seemed to inherit the obese genes. She had a really nice figure as an early adolescent, and she just seemed to gradually put on more and more weight until she was outright obese. If someone said the least little thing about her weight she was EXTREMELY OFFENDED. So, I LEARNED early on that that was a VERY sensitive subject and that her feelings were easily hurt. She wasn't happy being overweight and it didn't seem to help if someone made a comment. It seemed to only make matters WORSE. I remember praying for my sister. Because I KNEW how UNHAPPY she WAS. And I KNEW that she would be a happier person if she was happier about her weight. But, she had issues-- and she used food as her "pacifier"; she also turned to food to cope with stress. Food was a pleasurable thing to her and eating food was a pleasurable past time for her. I guess she could have turned to drugs or something else destructive. But, like many Americans, food became her drug of choice. You may wonder what this has to do with Divorce and Remarriage. Well, it all ties in with her marriage and divorce and remarriage. Her first husband loved her, but didn't really love her fluffiness all that much, but thought that it was always something they could work on and change after they got married.He assumed that love could conquer all and that she would lose weight and be happier and he in turn would be happier as well. It didn't work that way. She continued to turn to food to cope with life and whenever he made a comment about it she became very upset and hostile and verbally abusive back at him. So he learned too hold his feelings in for a long time and then explode. This created a vicious cycle of silence, erupted fights, followed by cold silence again. Resentment just grew and grew. He accused her of not wanting to please him by not losing weight. She accused him of not loving her and accepting her the way she was when he married her. She felt that he was trying to change the essence of who she was instead of loving her just the way she was. A painful reality is when you find out someone you love doesn't love you just for who you are. But neither of them had a very strong relationship with the Lord and did not really know about that unconditional love the the Father has for His children. She was brought up under the teaching that you had to perform well to be loved and stay with the good graces of mom and dad. He came from a very dysfunctional family and religious background as well. Performance-based. Neither set of their parents probably felt that they raised their kids with CONDITIONAL love, but that is the MESSAGE that the kids got from their parents: I love you and approve of you if:........She felt she could do little right and also that she was under constant scrutiny. Because we were raised in such a strict Christian environment, most of us kids wanted out of it by the time we moved away from home. She was no exception. And....she may have rushed into marriage because of the way she had been raised. (possible) , thinking that getting married was the answer to her need to feel loved and accepted. Her, marriage eventually dissolved. And she still had her issues and he still had his. She began to feel as though 'love' was always conditional. She thought that people would only love her if she was skinny & had perfect manners. Many men wouldn't even look at her because she was overweight or obese; as her weight fluctuated all the time. She noticed that skinny women got more attention and were asked on date more and more pursued. And she wanted to be loved. She wanted attention. She needed love and acceptance and attention. So she started a series and cycles of weight loss followed by weight gain. The underlying issues had never been truly dealt with, so the addiction to food would resurface again and again. After being single for awhile following her divorce, she met someone who loves her just the way she was. He didn't ridicule her or try to change her and mold her into something she wasn't. She was overweight when he first took and liking to her and that is the person he fell in love with. He didn't expect her to change to please him. At last,, she felt accepted and loved for being herself. Who am I to tell this woman she doesn't deserve to be loved and cared for by a someone who really loves her and cares for her as she is? The interesting thing is, that now that she feels a freedom to be herself and still be loved, she is dealing with her childhood issues and developing a more healthy relationship with food. It is within the accepting & unconditional love of the second marriage that she is blossoming into a truly happy, contented and healthy person. hah Wow, Scarlett, thank U muchly for sharing this inspiring piece. There is nothing quite like unconditional love...to nurture a person to be all they can be. And no matter what earthly human relationships we have, we can know the assurance of The Lord's unconditional love. It fosters so many wonderful things; it fosters love and good growth and spiritual prosperity. hah You are very welcome, hippy, Speaking of unconditional love: no human can replace or step-in and take the place of God and the relationship He wants to have with us: the MARRIAGE He desires us to experience ultimately is a spiritual marriage (to Christ). I've come to realize that earthly marriage should be one that HONORS our spiritual "marriage".....and that while there are SOME cases of unconditional love between humans, the unconditional love of Our Father cannot be compared with human love....and that with the love of God, one can be nurtured, fed, loved, comforted, guided, directed, led and encouraged to be the person that God has called, purposed, sanctified, and ordained them to become! In the case of my sister, as I've written about, I sort of view it this way: her first marriage was based primarily on the flesh. The second marriage was based more on unconditional love. It is within the second marriage that she became a much happier person; she changed in a positive way. I've wondered often what came first: the unconditional love she received in the second marriage or did she change inwardly before she was in the second marriage and then blossomed and developed into the much happier and peaceful person withIN the second marriage? But: another way too look upon it is this: (analogy) We are first born of flesh and married to our flesh and that marriage has many limits as well as conditional love. Our second marriage (also viewed as being born again) is likened to being a Bride of Christ and He is the Bridegroom of our soul. It is within this second marriage that deals mainly with being born again IN SPIRIT that we are then able to become ALL that God purposes for us to BE. He is able to live in us and thus His purpose is allowed to be carried out to Its fullest. God wants to set up house and home with us as the Bride of Christ. He wants to live in us...He wants us to BE His Temple. And He has the ability and the power to MAKE IT HAPPEN. After being a widow twice and married a third time and observing many close to me in and out of various earthly marriages, I have to conclude that there are way too many people who rush into marriage or who are not married to the right person: [someone who will nurture them, love them, honor them and cherish them as God would have it.] Part of the reason the divorce rate is so high is because there are many wrong marriages out there....marriages that should have probably never taken place...between people who are marrying for the flesh and not for the spirit. scarlett
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Post by someguy on Apr 19, 2009 23:24:31 GMT -5
We just learned of a couple in their thirties who recently married ( both divorced) were asked not to attend any meetings by the overseer. Interesting to know, I recently heard of this happening as well. A friend of mine was telling me it appears that this is the workers new stance out west. I wonder how far this will stretch. Somewhat scary really. No grace to those sinners. Once we've weeded out those dang divorced and remarried people, I wonder who will be the next target to be removed for their sins....
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Post by kiwi on Apr 19, 2009 23:38:05 GMT -5
We heard in our meeting tonight about choices made and if we make choices in the beginning without God's imput we could be looking at disaster. *** Kiwi, is God's input seen on the same level as your overseer's input?If and when they are one and the same, then follow your overseer. Otherwise don't follow him. Disaster means "losing out and facing a lost eternity?" I wished the workers would explain what they mean. I mean how about workers who have "left their place" and gone bad? Ah one goes to God for His imput You know the one thing that is happy here is that everybody has their own idea and wish it to be practiced but there is very little here amongst christians of what God wants and the workers are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't on the very same subject.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 19, 2009 23:40:37 GMT -5
How does the church encourage marital breakup? How does the church not care if children are separated from their parents? Please detail these disgusting examples of a system of rules gone bad? If D&R folks want to speak, pray, and share the emblems in meeting in most parts of the world they are expected to separate - whether or not they have children to their union. Workers don't fret about how many sexual relationships folks have had in the past, but if they've signed a marriage certificate with any former partner they are deemed to be living in sin with their subsequent spouse. This is an attack on marriage - young folks are advised to not marry their sexual partner so they can be accepted into the church if they profess later on with a different partner. Workers discriminate against those who have done the decent thing and married their sexual partner. Also, some divorced folks have illicit sex rather than marry, because they know they won't be accepted by the church if they make it legal. Those who live in sin, then break up, then marry are accepted. However those who marry, then break up, then marry are treated like lepers. How can this doctrine be of God? Through their legalistic stance the workers effectively uphold living in sin as better than legal marriage. Legal maybe in your eyes and the laws of the land, but it seems here that God has no say
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Post by someguy on Apr 19, 2009 23:44:32 GMT -5
Legal maybe in your eyes and the laws of the land, but it seems here that God has no say God has lots to say about grace and love and lots to say about those who worried about the appearance of sins and others. My God help us to be full of grace and love to all those around us. And when we don't know the answer (which is pretty much always) may He help us to be quiet and to not voice our opinions....and just trust in the Spirit and that God will convict us and those who we are worried about. Really it is amazing that we would ever be concerned about others, but sadly we often are.
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