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Post by Sharon on Feb 12, 2009 22:48:15 GMT -5
I see - well that figures... Its from some group called the Faith CHRISTIAN Mission - and the site does not give a connection to the Faith Mission or to the FM website. Cherie, it looks like they didn't even get this from the Faith Mission website. Cherie, that's how I got the link was through "Faith Mission Beliefs"! Thank you!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 12, 2009 23:03:24 GMT -5
Here's Faith Missions website: www.faithmission.org/Are you saying that the link you gave came from a link on this site?? You are quoting from this site: www.faithchristianmission.com/fcmbeliefs.htmlThis is NOT the Faith Mission site that Wm Irvine was a part of. . I see - well that figures... Its from some group called the Faith CHRISTIAN Mission - and the site does not give a connection to the Faith Mission or to the FM website. Cherie, that's how I got the link was through "Faith Mission Beliefs"! Thank you!
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Post by JO on Feb 12, 2009 23:07:15 GMT -5
You are right Nathan... ...what people believe doesn't have to be truth. They can believe the world is flat if they want to. It probably wouldn't be the best use of my time trying to reason with them though. Nathan, the point you seem to be missing is that your George Gittens story is clutching at straws. William Irvine was NOT baptized in the Faith mission. William Irvine did NOT disregard his Faith mission baptism (because he never had one). Why should I believe anything else you try to tell me? [/color][/quote] ~~~ The choice is up to the individual. As I said before I will let the readers decide for themselves. I am not a Faith Mission expert on their teachings.[/quote]
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Post by Sharon on Feb 12, 2009 23:18:26 GMT -5
Cherie, that's how I got the link was through "Faith Mission Beliefs"! Thank you!
Thanks, Sharon...
Faith Mission belief: # 4. All believers are admonished to be baptized in water. Mark 16: 16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned ."
According to Matthew 28: 19 "baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. " AND Acts 2:38 "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," ACTS 4:12 " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
~~~ 1) Cherie wrote: This doesnt say their preachers baptize--they believe in it, but they dont form churches or baptize. Their preachers are missionaries. FM isn't a church. It's a mission. They encourage people to attend the local churches, where they can be baptized and take communion.
Faith Mission belief: # 11. We believe in taking Communion as a remembrance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice of His broken body and His blood which was shed for all believers. We not believe that the natural elements of bread and wine become the literal flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. ~~~ Cherie, are you sure you know the Faith Mission belief or their 19 statement of Faith. Have you read them before?Nathan, as I'm not a computer whiz....you saw or can see all that's on that website....I linked to it through just typing "Faith Mission beliefs" in my search engine and this is what came up! It doesn't link to any church, so it perhaps is from the "faith mission" because as long as it christian-linked the faith mission approves of such. To go to the Govan Faith Mission in Ireland doesn't really give much info about faith's beliefs other then it sets forth the almost exact "faith lines" ministry that WI supposedly founded! It also goes about in "meetings in the homes" or any other place that the gospel can find rest! I'm not so sure AFTER visiting the "Faith Mission" founded by Govan in 1886 that WI founded anything, now did he? What was "new".....it just seems the only difference is the workers of the truth's fellowship starting trying to put their sheep in the fold and care for them! And to live what they were preaching as GW said! WI was an over seer or field supervisor for the FM so why wouldn't it be natural he'd keep that position? These early workers had NO idea where they were going to go with what they felt like was the spirit's leading, now did they? IT evolved to what it is today and sadly it looks like what is today is even more different then the beginning fellowship was different from the FM! Like it was said, you get to studying all the facts and you get down to the sands of time and the house shifts and blows away and if you don't have a personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour, then you have nothing....thank God for God!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 12, 2009 23:21:30 GMT -5
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Post by JO on Feb 12, 2009 23:27:23 GMT -5
Someone should ask him which one, if any, originate from him. And if he feels confident to stand before his creator one day and tell the same story.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 12, 2009 23:43:15 GMT -5
***Not so. They give a course on cults in their Bible College and give out a handout naming the Cooneyites as a cult. A copy is reprinted in the TTT Photo Gallery and in Chapter 3 is a typed copy. www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/?level=picture&id=1000This sheet was furnished by Keith H. Percival, General Director of Faith Mission, with cover letter dated May 10, 1993, with the comment: "I am also enclosing copies of some notes used in teaching our own students." The manner of "Faith Lines" regarding preachers support was different, and didn't satisfy WmI. The FM preachers send in their money each month with a report on their work. Then the HQ would divvy up the money and send back an allowance. I'm sure you can see how this is different from how the workers do things today re money. The 2 books about Faith Mission, (Spirit of Revival) and (Heritage of Revival) give details about the FM. They're in the Lending Library - see Lee Fryer for a copy if you're interested in learning more about FM. When WmI left FM - there is nothing documenting that he had any intention or even idea of setting up a church. In fact, he visited J Long that he did NOT wanting to start a new sect/church. If you read Pattison and Long - you will see that was NOT what he wanted or had in mind when he left FM. Setting up churches came a couple years After the ministry got off the ground.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 12, 2009 23:49:53 GMT -5
How many times are you going to post this letter by GW??? Provided people are reading it, they should know it by heart by now.
Nate wrote:
NOPE. Wrong. These two things didn't happen WHEN he became a worker--
Baptism and church in the home came along a few years AFTER he left FM and became an independent worker going on Faith Lines.
------------ Here's another side to the Robert Darling--Geo. Gittins story:
Professor Oliver Wm. Rolfe who was well acquainted with Robert Darling wrote: "I have previously heard the account...attributed to Robert Darling about the beginnings of the church. I have no idea whether or not it is true, but I do know what Robert told me personally.
I met Robert in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then travelled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970.
In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house.
There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this. [by Oliver William Rolfe, Ph.D., Stanford University, 1967, Professor Emeritus (Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures) University of Montana, Missoula, Montana]
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 0:02:17 GMT -5
And your point is... You're repeating yourself Nate -
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Post by ilylo on Feb 13, 2009 0:06:53 GMT -5
Aw, now Cherie, don't pick on the poor boy. He just got out of the round house where he tried to sit in the corner. He's still a little loopy from the experience, so go easy on him, ok?
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Post by goodapollo on Feb 13, 2009 0:12:07 GMT -5
Aw, now Cherie, don't pick on the poor boy. He just got out of the round house where he tried to sit in the corner. He's still a little loopy from the experience, so go easy on him, ok? ;D I dig your jokes, ilylo!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 0:15:55 GMT -5
Nate - I'd be ashamed to use that story to try to prove anything. It has so many holes in it - its pathetic. The Gittins account is a single account, as far as we know. All other records from the period in question appear to contradict this story. There is no record of Wm Irvine ever giving out this story. To the contrary, it appears to have become a point of pride with him that he was the "Father" of the whole "Testimony" group and that "without Irvine there would be no Testimony." (Friends and workers group). Furthermore, records vary of what Robert Darling and George Gittins reportedly said. Why is George the only one who has told this legend? Wouldn't this be a well-known story among the friends at the time? Why did no one make any effort to record that part of their history? If all of those workers and friends were scattered, why do we not hear of efforts of those in Ireland attempting to trace the others, in order to continue their fellowship with them? Could they ALL have been killed except for this mystery family that came to Ireland? Even if we found historical documentation to confirm this story, it STILL would not "prove" that this was the "Remnant" from the Apostles' time, which is probably impossible to prove historically. Many groups have tried to, including the Plymouth Brethren and the Baptists. The Gittins account is lacking many vital pieces of information. Which sister of Wm Irvine? Whose home? Where was this home? When was contact made later with the Irish family who introduced this faith to William's sister? What was the outcome? Did the ministers and the meeting elders merge together? What was the name of any of the homeless preachers in Switzerland? What were the names of Irvine's friends who embraced the faith after he told them about it? Who were the friends of Wm Irvine who went out likewise? When did all this take place? What George read may or may not have any bearing on the history of the group. What "persecution in Europe"? What's the connection of European persecutions in a history book to the beginning of Wm Irvine's ministry? The vague reference to the presence of groups having no name and to some itinerant ministers is of no documentary value. It is speculation. The Spanish Inquisition was chiefly concerned with the expulsion of Jews and Moslems and lasted for around 350 years. What group fled from Spain to Armenia, or from Armenia to Switzerland? From the late Dark Ages through to modern times, Armenia has been far removed both politically (being surrounded and dominated by Islamic territories) and geographically from Western Europe. It is hard to imagine any such flow to and from this distant land during this time. Travel and communication to Armenia through hostile territories existing during this period seems far fetched at best. George may have read some about the Hammidian Masssacres (1894-1896) in Armenia and may have connected some of those accounts in his mind. Who were the first workers who pioneered the gospel to Switzerland and when was that? Who were the first people in Switzerland to profess and when was that? The FIRST four workers to go to Switzerland were James Jardine, Otto Schmidt, Penny Barton and Maggie Johnston. They went there in 1913 and the men had moved on to Germany in February, 1914. Within a year, the sister workers returned to Crocknacrieve where the Impartial Reporter mentions Miss Barton speaking about her experiences in Switzerland the previous year. Did any of these pioneering workers connect with any friends/workers who were located in Switzerland? Or had they all died out? When the next batch of workers went to Switzerland after World War I, there were no professing people there. Reportedly, Emma Bovy was the first to profess, sometime after 1922. See Switzerland pioneering history of workers: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/switzerland.php
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Post by ilylo on Feb 13, 2009 0:20:39 GMT -5
Oh, come on, Cherie! Nathan has factual historical documents!
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Post by melissa on Feb 13, 2009 2:11:26 GMT -5
Nathan talks off the top of his head, monopolises almost every post that there is and sidetracks away from the serious issues. Sorry Nathan, but it has to be said. Nathan sits on every fence. Who knows where he pitches his tent?
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 7:31:31 GMT -5
I know of no document personally written by Robert Darling or any other worker on the 1905 Workers List expressing this tale about Wm Irvin'e sister...
I find that strange indeed.
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Post by september on Feb 13, 2009 9:36:36 GMT -5
I know of no document personally written by Robert Darling or any other worker on the 1905 Workers List expressing this tale about Wm Irvin'e sister... I find that strange indeed. It's a load of pants Cherie. Who knows what Robert Darling was thinking when he told this story but it doesn't mesh with anything you have record of nor anything I've ever heard from family. As mentioned before to Nathan, surely there would have been much made of the "connection" when there were squabbles and discord and workers being excommunicated, and more particularly when EC was in court and asked of the beginnings. Nathan, there are descendents of the Gill family (though not bearing the surname)still professing in Ireland who know nothing of the accreditation to their family. Don't you think they'd have known if their family was instrumental in bringing the fellowship to Ireland from Switzerland? In Ireland, rightly or wrongly, there is a small degree of pride amongst some of the older professing families, especially those who can claim ancestoral participation in any significant event in the developing years of the fellowship. I'm sure if the Gills were responsible for bringing the fellowship to Ireland, someone, somewhere would know about it, especially knowing the friends in that area as I do. (By that I mean they are all very close friends so something of that magnitude could not be hidden.) I completely dismiss Robert Darling's account.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 10:01:23 GMT -5
Dear Nathan9, The board has noted your explanations of 2x2isms beginings many many times -- and have attempted to find credibility in your ideas .. but unfortunately although the explanations are extremely different, your story has very similar failings as the more official 2x2 explanation. -- The failing of absolutley no traceable documentable supporting facts in history -- this puts it into the catagory of a fantacy. I have found Cheries documentation to be surprizing to me -- as I grew up fully convinced the historical background I gave my life to, could never be proven -- one way or the other. To me the begining with William Irvine is proven well enough in the information she has so carefully dug up and presented, that it cannot be honestly contested. -- Of course it will be contested, but it is robust enough to withstand any logical questioning. Contrary to many, the history of 2x2ism hasn't been a prime issue for me. I had already left the group before I even became aware of it. But it does come with some very compelling dishonesty issues. Edgar, Are you speaking for "the board"? Who and what is "the board"? Is it that insidious presence lurking here that seeks to destroy the fellowship?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 10:03:28 GMT -5
***Not so. They give a course on cults in their Bible College and give out a handout naming the Cooneyites as a cult. A copy is reprinted in the TTT Photo Gallery and in Chapter 3 is a typed copy. www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/?level=picture&id=1000This sheet was furnished by Keith H. Percival, General Director of Faith Mission, with cover letter dated May 10, 1993, with the comment: "I am also enclosing copies of some notes used in teaching our own students." The manner of "Faith Lines" regarding preachers support was different, and didn't satisfy WmI. The FM preachers send in their money each month with a report on their work. Then the HQ would divvy up the money and send back an allowance. I'm sure you can see how this is different from how the workers do things today re money. The 2 books about Faith Mission, (Spirit of Revival) and (Heritage of Revival) give details about the FM. They're in the Lending Library - see Lee Fryer for a copy if you're interested in learning more about FM. When WmI left FM - there is nothing documenting that he had any intention or even idea of setting up a church. In fact, he visited J Long that he did NOT wanting to start a new sect/church. If you read Pattison and Long - you will see that was NOT what he wanted or had in mind when he left FM. Setting up churches came a couple years After the ministry got off the ground. Cherie, you just came right back into a circle of what I've been trying to say all along...WI DID NOT FOUND the truth's fellowship, it was NOT HIS INTENTION! I think it is reasonable to surmise that a "founder" of anything would have had some "intention" to found it...wouldn't he/she? Another thing I'm saying is that the first few years according to yourself, WI and other "workers" which I am understanding from what you've said and the Faith Mission called their ministers out in the fields "workers".....WI did not "found" the concept of "workers" it was already "founded" by Govan and his Faith Mission! If you're looking to "name the founder" of the truth's fellowship, you'll have to look beyond WI and add a few more names! It was, according to your own words, something "THEY" came up with several years later! It was a collaborative situation! Why WI didn't like the Faith Mission's way of doing? It almost seems like the "money" returning to the Faith Mission's coffers was a problem for him all along! The love of money...wasn't that a problem with him all along according to what you've said? I'm not knocking Faith Mission by saying that WI appropriated "THEIR" way of ministry....he got the "vision" or "revelation" from them, he did not found anything.........that's according to your own words. You can not have it both ways, Cherie........It is true that he was the FIRST overseer! And it ends there. Thank you! I read what Faith Mission says about some of their "previous ministers", it says they are in every country in many different Christian churches! I think in the years that the truth's fellowship began it's life, that the word "CULT" the word was meaning the same as "SECT", which I understand to mean "a splinter off of an existing denomination".....the word did not gain an ominous meaning until about 1965 after the Jones' debacle where the members drank poison and died! That's when the word "cult" took its ominous meaning! So in that light, the writings you speak of where the Faith Mission spoke about the truth's fellowship as "cult", I firmly believe that they were meaning that it "splintered" off of their own mission! And it truly seems to be that way!
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 10:09:55 GMT -5
Aw, now Cherie, don't pick on the poor boy. He just got out of the round house where he tried to sit in the corner. He's still a little loopy from the experience, so go easy on him, ok? ;D I dig your jokes, ilylo! Yeah, you two contribute a lot to the discussion. Trying to wear out my scroll button again?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 10:14:39 GMT -5
And your point is... You're repeating yourself Nate - ~~~ My point is.....
It seemed Robert Darling the 1905 worker didn't tell Mr. Oliver William very much information of the beginning in 1967... it didn't meant it didn't happen. Robert Darling shared a lot of interesting information about the beginning when he was with Geogre Gittens while they were visiting with each other at Nebraska convention in the early 1970s.The "apparent" variables of the story from Robert Darling should take into consideration the "passing of time" and its effect on the memory! It isn't an intentional omission as we all can attest to because most of us on here have our "senior moments" What I'm saying here is Robert Darling had to have been considerably of age when his stories were told in the late 60's and 70's now, wasn't he. Also, I don't really know how old George Gittins is this day...but he'd have to be aging also. The variables to telling a story is also that there are some things passed over and some things expounded on in the "telling" of a story. I think for history sake it is best to balance it out and take it all with a dash of salt, remembering that the environment of the day of telling also plays a great deal upon the telling. The histories that are written have been proven to be less then stellar truths when compared to "memories" told of the times written within those histories.....I think that is a God-given gift! Histories are written with bias...it usually comes up with whoever is doing the telling's bias...not that there is always evil intent....it just happens because with each telling there is a color added. It cannot be helped. Please remember that, Cherie and Nathan!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 10:19:15 GMT -5
"The Gittins account is a single account, as far as we know. All other records from the period in question appear to contradict this story. There is no record of Wm Irvine ever giving out this story. To the contrary, it appears to have become a point of pride with him that he was the "Father" of the whole "Testimony" group and that "without Irvine there would be no Testimony." (Friends and workers group). Furthermore, records vary of what Robert Darling and George Gittins reportedly said. "
Cherie, please consider at what time of life that WI supposedly said with pride about founding the truth's fellowship. As vain a fellow, he became, it's very probable that his "pride" was misplaced! His age, also when he said it.....he was a victim of delusions of grandeur, what he wrote in his later life cannot be measured with salt....if he ever had salt to his testimony...he lost it somewhere!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 10:35:07 GMT -5
Look at who WmI was writing to when he stated that he had started "The Testimony" (what he called the F&Ws or 2x2 sect) —He was addressing people who would KNOW for certain whether he was lying or telling the truth. Would you lie to people who knew you when you grew up in Kilsythe and went on the Bicycle "test drive" trip in 1899 with you (John Hardie); who were there with you in the beginning (Eddie Cooney; Bill Carroll) and who could call your hand on it and laugh in your face if it were not true?? Now, would you? I think NOT. Check out the following statements and who WmI said them to. NOTE: "Testimony" was the term Wm Irvine used in his letters to refer to the Workers & Friends Fellowship, 2x2s, Go-Preacher Movement, Tramp Preachers, "the truth", etc. that he started. “Looking back over 20 years, it was a big job to gather, mother, teach, guide, lead and scatter over the world, a seed in Alpha Days. But I managed it. It was hard to get people to see, feel and do what I had done IN STARTING ALONE, and finding room and people in the world for my Message; and once people tested it out, they found it possible, just as if the world was virgin soil. But it was the way to reveal the strong from the weak. And my job was to lead the way so that others could follow and find, that what was possible to me was, for them, comparatively easy, if they faced it. And once a year I visited them to cheer, strengthen, and supply what was lacking in their witness.” (June 2, 1933 Letter to Hulls) (Followers of Wm Irvine's Omega Message) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY. The mountains echo and re-echo the human voice, and so The Testimony was the echo and re-echo of the Voice of God through my lips, though I knew it not then, as I do today. For the Prophets and Apostles only got to know who they were, when they found themselves the victims of the iniquity and Scandal of those who were called the Church, or seal of their Anointing...I planted the Vineyard and it has fallen into the hands of wicked husbandmen. And I am the Servant sent to find the fruit; and those who mistreat the Servant are the same as the killers of the Son and Heir...whose end is destruction." (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker- entered work in 1901) “These 26-1/2 years is but half of my nearly 54 years of being the Son of Man, and hid from men's eyes and now about to be revealed. 26 years giving Alpha Message and seeing it finished up as in Matt. 24; leaving the Tares which the devil sowed to the Testimony cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites LIVING BY WHAT I HAD MADE FOR THEM." (May 6, 1946 Letter to Dunbars) (Some loyal followers of Wm Irvine--letters in TTT files to them from 1919 to 1946.) “Think of all I did for you, and others, in spite of my sins!… Fancy the labor in building a house for God, and the pain of seeing it become a den of thieves!! (August 28, 1920 Letter to John Hardie).(Worker and childhood friend of Wm Irvine from Kilsyth Scotland; entered work in 1900) “God made ME the FIRST head of the family. He did the calling by ME, and now these past seven years, he is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. It was so wonderful, both in numbers who heard, the numbers who professed, the numbers of workers, the ground covered with the clearness of the truth as it is in Jesus. But the end of the Jesus Way is to choose his Bride from among those who have had all these privileges...The dragon with seven heads is those who sat themselves up as Leaders of The Testimony and use their Horns of Authority to hurt others and are claimed by men as Leaders…deliver you from the power of the greatest set of robbers in the world history, who thought they could rob ME and those of what God had given them." (August 17, 1921 Letter to Fred Hanowell. (Worker) "If there had been no Wm Irvine, there would have been no Testimony. This was the general witness by all. If there had been no Wm Irvine found wise and faithful, there would have been no Son of Man chosen to rule His Household and give them meat in due season these 24 years past. Has any other known person done this--and now being so clearly fulfilled before their eyes and working into their hearts and lives everywhere as they see it fulfilled. And so fear is on all our enemies as it brings joy to all who are His Household. "Not every one that says Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but they that do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. Then shall I (Jesus) say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)(Early Worker) "Six years ago, in April, I was rejected and despised and cast out to die, according to prophecy, my birthright divided amongst my children and enemies (and I was willing), but the anointing that God gave me remained with me, and nobody seems to get my mantle, though many have tried my shoes, sat in my seat, slept in my bed, ate my meals and have enjoyed the rise to power and pre-eminence...When the world and Testimony set out to bury me, and forget my name, person, presence and etc. they failed. The Jesus Way was stolen, confiscated, misappropriated. I remember seeing and hearing you take it over in my presence.” (June 29, 1920 Letter to Wm Carroll) (Worker - entered work in 1903) “You and Co. [the other workers] stole all God and His Anointed produced, but you did not steal the root nor the power which made my mustard seed.” (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie)(Worker - entered work in 1901) “I was pleased to see your letter and to hear of some evidence of returning humanity in three of you, for that will precede any hope of deliverance from the snare of the Devil, into which you have all fallen, and which accounts for the deadness and corruption, which characterized the whole Testimony these 9 years. And if nobody else knows it, I do; and always knew more of these conditions than anyone else. And rightly so, for The Testimony was the Seal of God and proof of MY Anointing. And if I was not the Father, certainly I was not the Brother of any. God never gathered brethren but by a father, and all your attempts to change these facts only reveals the secrets of your hearts and leaves you where you began, and as you began—without God, and knowing it not, though full of zeal, knowledge, profession and fruit, which you long ago recognized was only adding to the wickedness of the world… “ (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker - entered work in 1901) "For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find, as did Paul, that false Apostles and prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually under their power….I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and S. Africa….I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918 and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thots and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust." (October 16, 1934 Letter to Mr. Thorp) (New Convert to Wm Irvine's Omega Message) " The record of the whole book shows that The Man God Anointed to BEGIN the work, is the one He uses to finish it; and it's always revealed in similar ways. The wicked always are the rejecters; the Lamb of God seed, led by the anointed of God, are the rejected. The whole Bible is a record of the few men who were the anointed of God bringing blessing to many; and then rejected by the many, that the few sheep might be gathered around the man of God, who becomes the least; as the wicked become the greatest. ( December 8, 1921 Letter to Harry McNeary) NOTE: Anointed of God was a title Wm Irvine used for himself. ________________________________________ "IF THERE HAD BEEN NO WM. IRVINE... THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TESTIMONY..." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 10:37:07 GMT -5
Splintering off from the Faith Mission, and turning back to the Bible is a good way to put it. There are many apocryphal accounts of individuals and couples who kept up some kind of New Testament tradition and joined with the workers when they came. I know there are some in Switzerland. These oral accounts can never be taken into an official history, and they strictly speaking are not part of the workers' movement. I doubt that WI was baptized by Faith Mission myself. The question is, where was he baptized originally? Weren't the Irvine's Presbyterians? In any case, that detail doesn't invalidate the Gittens hearsay account. Such accounts often contain minor errors. But I agree that such accounts can't be included in the history of the workers' movement. What they do illustrate is that there is a history of marginalized Christianity which existed palpably even though it is poorly documented. For example, here is a part of the account of one James Hudson Taylor and William Chalmers Burns, who preached in China for many years in the mid 19th C, bolded emphasis is mine. Taylor greatly valued these times, writing, "Never had I such a spiritual father as Mr Burns," and his foundation of the China Inland Mission owed much to the support Burns gave him. Although Burns was arrested in 1856 for being outside the permitted towns, he was not discouraged and soon resumed his work of evangelism. From then onwards his work was essentially of a pioneer kind, going wherever he perceived an opportunity to speak of Christ, whether it was to condemned criminals In prison, travellers by the roadside, or villagers gathered in the market places. This meant that he was constantly moving from town to town, and apart from one brief furlough when he accompanied a sick missionary back to Scotland, Burns spent over twenty years seeking out those who had not yet heard of the Saviour. Because he had no permanent home, he depended on hospitality when travelling, but he was content to share the simplest accommodation and food with his hosts, and all his possessions could be packed into a single wooden box.
Despite the size of China and the slowness of travel, Burns covered enormous distances, preaching and witnessing tirelessly until he became a familiar sight in province after province. So great was his love and compassion for the people that when a fellow missionary was asked if he knew Burns, he replied, "Sir, all China knows him: he's the holiest man alive." Having spent his life working for God's glory Burns was prepared when His master should call him home. At the age of fifty-three, while in Manchuria, he became seriously ill and although cared for by another missionary and a Chinese he had befriended, he died shortly afterwards. In his final moments Burns and his companions repeated the twenty-third Psalm and the Lord's Prayer, resting in assurance upon the everlasting arms of the eternal God who was his refuge. Source: www.paperclip.org.uk/kilsythweb/religion/burns,%20william%20chalmers.htm Just another itinerant preacher, except that he also came from Kilsyth, the small Scottish town where William Irvine grew up. Burns died in China in 1858, 5 years after Irvine was born. Doubtless he would have been known to the Irvine family, but of what connection in their minds and hearts will never be known.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 10:40:40 GMT -5
NOT! WmI didn't want to--it wasn't his intention--but he did it anyway--Yes, he DID found a new sect. There was nothing else like it when he started it--Faith Mission verified that in a letter to me that is on TTT.
WmI's group wasnt the same as their group--FM put out several discmaimers about there being absolutely NO connection between the two groups in their magazine Bright Words. These are reprinted on TTT.
He made up his mind which route to go after he talked to John Long in his discouragement in 1903. People change their minds all all the time...
And at the 1903 Rathmolyon conv - he TOOK CHARGE and the new sect began to get off the ground. Started sending workers around the world; he started overseering the group worldwide, taking annual tours abroad; reportedly, the workers took vows of celibacy, etc. at this conv also.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 10:45:40 GMT -5
Look at who WmI was writing to when he stated that he had started "The Testimony" (what he called the F&Ws or 2x2 sect) —He was addressing people who would KNOW for certain whether he was lying or telling the truth. Would you lie to people who knew you when you grew up in Kilsythe and went on the Bicycle "test drive" trip in 1899 with you (John Hardie); who were there with you in the beginning (Eddie Cooney; Bill Carroll) and who could call your hand on it and laugh in your face if it were not true?? Now, would you? I think NOT. Check out the following statements and who WmI said them to. NOTE: "Testimony" was the term Wm Irvine used in his letters to refer to the Workers & Friends Fellowship, 2x2s, Go-Preacher Movement, Tramp Preachers, "the truth", etc. that he started. “Looking back over 20 years, it was a big job to gather, mother, teach, guide, lead and scatter over the world, a seed in Alpha Days. But I managed it. It was hard to get people to see, feel and do what I had done IN STARTING ALONE, and finding room and people in the world for my Message; and once people tested it out, they found it possible, just as if the world was virgin soil. But it was the way to reveal the strong from the weak. And my job was to lead the way so that others could follow and find, that what was possible to me was, for them, comparatively easy, if they faced it. And once a year I visited them to cheer, strengthen, and supply what was lacking in their witness.” (June 2, 1933 Letter to Hulls) (Followers of Wm Irvine's Omega Message) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY. The mountains echo and re-echo the human voice, and so The Testimony was the echo and re-echo of the Voice of God through my lips, though I knew it not then, as I do today. For the Prophets and Apostles only got to know who they were, when they found themselves the victims of the iniquity and Scandal of those who were called the Church, or seal of their Anointing...I planted the Vineyard and it has fallen into the hands of wicked husbandmen. And I am the Servant sent to find the fruit; and those who mistreat the Servant are the same as the killers of the Son and Heir...whose end is destruction." (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker- entered work in 1901) “These 26-1/2 years is but half of my nearly 54 years of being the Son of Man, and hid from men's eyes and now about to be revealed. 26 years giving Alpha Message and seeing it finished up as in Matt. 24; leaving the Tares which the devil sowed to the Testimony cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites LIVING BY WHAT I HAD MADE FOR THEM." (May 6, 1946 Letter to Dunbars) (Some loyal followers of Wm Irvine--letters in TTT files to them from 1919 to 1946.) “Think of all I did for you, and others, in spite of my sins!… Fancy the labor in building a house for God, and the pain of seeing it become a den of thieves!! (August 28, 1920 Letter to John Hardie).(Worker and childhood friend of Wm Irvine from Kilsyth Scotland; entered work in 1900) “God made ME the FIRST head of the family. He did the calling by ME, and now these past seven years, he is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. It was so wonderful, both in numbers who heard, the numbers who professed, the numbers of workers, the ground covered with the clearness of the truth as it is in Jesus. But the end of the Jesus Way is to choose his Bride from among those who have had all these privileges...The dragon with seven heads is those who sat themselves up as Leaders of The Testimony and use their Horns of Authority to hurt others and are claimed by men as Leaders…deliver you from the power of the greatest set of robbers in the world history, who thought they could rob ME and those of what God had given them." (August 17, 1921 Letter to Fred Hanowell. (Worker) "If there had been no Wm Irvine, there would have been no Testimony. This was the general witness by all. If there had been no Wm Irvine found wise and faithful, there would have been no Son of Man chosen to rule His Household and give them meat in due season these 24 years past. Has any other known person done this--and now being so clearly fulfilled before their eyes and working into their hearts and lives everywhere as they see it fulfilled. And so fear is on all our enemies as it brings joy to all who are His Household. "Not every one that says Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but they that do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. Then shall I (Jesus) say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)(Early Worker) "Six years ago, in April, I was rejected and despised and cast out to die, according to prophecy, my birthright divided amongst my children and enemies (and I was willing), but the anointing that God gave me remained with me, and nobody seems to get my mantle, though many have tried my shoes, sat in my seat, slept in my bed, ate my meals and have enjoyed the rise to power and pre-eminence...When the world and Testimony set out to bury me, and forget my name, person, presence and etc. they failed. The Jesus Way was stolen, confiscated, misappropriated. I remember seeing and hearing you take it over in my presence.” (June 29, 1920 Letter to Wm Carroll) (Worker - entered work in 1903) “You and Co. [the other workers] stole all God and His Anointed produced, but you did not steal the root nor the power which made my mustard seed.” (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie)(Worker - entered work in 1901) “I was pleased to see your letter and to hear of some evidence of returning humanity in three of you, for that will precede any hope of deliverance from the snare of the Devil, into which you have all fallen, and which accounts for the deadness and corruption, which characterized the whole Testimony these 9 years. And if nobody else knows it, I do; and always knew more of these conditions than anyone else. And rightly so, for The Testimony was the Seal of God and proof of MY Anointing. And if I was not the Father, certainly I was not the Brother of any. God never gathered brethren but by a father, and all your attempts to change these facts only reveals the secrets of your hearts and leaves you where you began, and as you began—without God, and knowing it not, though full of zeal, knowledge, profession and fruit, which you long ago recognized was only adding to the wickedness of the world… “ (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker - entered work in 1901) "For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find, as did Paul, that false Apostles and prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually under their power….I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and S. Africa….I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918 and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thots and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust." (October 16, 1934 Letter to Mr. Thorp) (New Convert to Wm Irvine's Omega Message) " The record of the whole book shows that The Man God Anointed to BEGIN the work, is the one He uses to finish it; and it's always revealed in similar ways. The wicked always are the rejecters; the Lamb of God seed, led by the anointed of God, are the rejected. The whole Bible is a record of the few men who were the anointed of God bringing blessing to many; and then rejected by the many, that the few sheep might be gathered around the man of God, who becomes the least; as the wicked become the greatest. ( December 8, 1921 Letter to Harry McNeary) NOTE: Anointed of God was a title Wm Irvine used for himself. ________________________________________ "IF THERE HAD BEEN NO WM. IRVINE... THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TESTIMONY..." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards) Cherie, the man was dishonest to start with...he was employed by Faith Missions and what did he do? He did NOT deal with his employer honestly! That is according to what you've said also. I do not count much of what he said as truth...for he colored it with his flashes of delusions of grandeur and the letter you quoted up above is full of delusions of grandeur!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 10:47:07 GMT -5
Why does this keep happening, when someone posts a reply it keeps coming back as part of the quote? I've noticed this on other people's replies?
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 10:51:18 GMT -5
what wrote:
what, could you please define "splintering off" as you and Sharon are using the term?
To me, it merely means that was the church/group someone was in when they left it and started another movement/church.
Google: A group, such as a religious sect or political faction, that has broken away from a parent group.
How many people have to break away for this to be a viable term to be applied to the sect WmI Founded? Would 3 be sufficient?
Also, what about WmI's Presbyterian background? He was still a Presbyterian while he was a preacher in Faith Mission. How does that figure ito the splinter group? Also, WmI was revived in Rev John McNeil's revival, who was a part of Moody's group of revivalist.
How does all this figure into "splintering off" off? Are you sure it was FM he "splintered off" of? Or was it the Presbyterian church?
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 10:52:02 GMT -5
Look at who WmI was writing to when he stated that he had started "The Testimony" (what he called the F&Ws or 2x2 sect) —He was addressing people who would KNOW for certain whether he was lying or telling the truth. Would you lie to people who knew you when you grew up in Kilsythe and went on the Bicycle "test drive" trip in 1899 with you (John Hardie); who were there with you in the beginning (Eddie Cooney; Bill Carroll) and who could call your hand on it and laugh in your face if it were not true?? Now, would you? I think NOT. Check out the following statements and who WmI said them to. NOTE: "Testimony" was the term Wm Irvine used in his letters to refer to the Workers & Friends Fellowship, 2x2s, Go-Preacher Movement, Tramp Preachers, "the truth", etc. that he started. “Looking back over 20 years, it was a big job to gather, mother, teach, guide, lead and scatter over the world, a seed in Alpha Days. But I managed it. It was hard to get people to see, feel and do what I had done IN STARTING ALONE, and finding room and people in the world for my Message; and once people tested it out, they found it possible, just as if the world was virgin soil. But it was the way to reveal the strong from the weak. And my job was to lead the way so that others could follow and find, that what was possible to me was, for them, comparatively easy, if they faced it. And once a year I visited them to cheer, strengthen, and supply what was lacking in their witness.” (June 2, 1933 Letter to Hulls) (Followers of Wm Irvine's Omega Message) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY. The mountains echo and re-echo the human voice, and so The Testimony was the echo and re-echo of the Voice of God through my lips, though I knew it not then, as I do today. For the Prophets and Apostles only got to know who they were, when they found themselves the victims of the iniquity and Scandal of those who were called the Church, or seal of their Anointing...I planted the Vineyard and it has fallen into the hands of wicked husbandmen. And I am the Servant sent to find the fruit; and those who mistreat the Servant are the same as the killers of the Son and Heir...whose end is destruction." (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker- entered work in 1901) “These 26-1/2 years is but half of my nearly 54 years of being the Son of Man, and hid from men's eyes and now about to be revealed. 26 years giving Alpha Message and seeing it finished up as in Matt. 24; leaving the Tares which the devil sowed to the Testimony cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites LIVING BY WHAT I HAD MADE FOR THEM." (May 6, 1946 Letter to Dunbars) (Some loyal followers of Wm Irvine--letters in TTT files to them from 1919 to 1946.) “Think of all I did for you, and others, in spite of my sins!… Fancy the labor in building a house for God, and the pain of seeing it become a den of thieves!! (August 28, 1920 Letter to John Hardie).(Worker and childhood friend of Wm Irvine from Kilsyth Scotland; entered work in 1900) “God made ME the FIRST head of the family. He did the calling by ME, and now these past seven years, he is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. It was so wonderful, both in numbers who heard, the numbers who professed, the numbers of workers, the ground covered with the clearness of the truth as it is in Jesus. But the end of the Jesus Way is to choose his Bride from among those who have had all these privileges...The dragon with seven heads is those who sat themselves up as Leaders of The Testimony and use their Horns of Authority to hurt others and are claimed by men as Leaders…deliver you from the power of the greatest set of robbers in the world history, who thought they could rob ME and those of what God had given them." (August 17, 1921 Letter to Fred Hanowell. (Worker) "If there had been no Wm Irvine, there would have been no Testimony. This was the general witness by all. If there had been no Wm Irvine found wise and faithful, there would have been no Son of Man chosen to rule His Household and give them meat in due season these 24 years past. Has any other known person done this--and now being so clearly fulfilled before their eyes and working into their hearts and lives everywhere as they see it fulfilled. And so fear is on all our enemies as it brings joy to all who are His Household. "Not every one that says Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but they that do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. Then shall I (Jesus) say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)(Early Worker) "Six years ago, in April, I was rejected and despised and cast out to die, according to prophecy, my birthright divided amongst my children and enemies (and I was willing), but the anointing that God gave me remained with me, and nobody seems to get my mantle, though many have tried my shoes, sat in my seat, slept in my bed, ate my meals and have enjoyed the rise to power and pre-eminence...When the world and Testimony set out to bury me, and forget my name, person, presence and etc. they failed. The Jesus Way was stolen, confiscated, misappropriated. I remember seeing and hearing you take it over in my presence.” (June 29, 1920 Letter to Wm Carroll) (Worker - entered work in 1903) “You and Co. [the other workers] stole all God and His Anointed produced, but you did not steal the root nor the power which made my mustard seed.” (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie)(Worker - entered work in 1901) “I was pleased to see your letter and to hear of some evidence of returning humanity in three of you, for that will precede any hope of deliverance from the snare of the Devil, into which you have all fallen, and which accounts for the deadness and corruption, which characterized the whole Testimony these 9 years. And if nobody else knows it, I do; and always knew more of these conditions than anyone else. And rightly so, for The Testimony was the Seal of God and proof of MY Anointing. And if I was not the Father, certainly I was not the Brother of any. God never gathered brethren but by a father, and all your attempts to change these facts only reveals the secrets of your hearts and leaves you where you began, and as you began—without God, and knowing it not, though full of zeal, knowledge, profession and fruit, which you long ago recognized was only adding to the wickedness of the world… “ (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker - entered work in 1901) "For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find, as did Paul, that false Apostles and prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually under their power….I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and S. Africa….I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918 and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thots and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust." (October 16, 1934 Letter to Mr. Thorp) (New Convert to Wm Irvine's Omega Message) " The record of the whole book shows that The Man God Anointed to BEGIN the work, is the one He uses to finish it; and it's always revealed in similar ways. The wicked always are the rejecters; the Lamb of God seed, led by the anointed of God, are the rejected. The whole Bible is a record of the few men who were the anointed of God bringing blessing to many; and then rejected by the many, that the few sheep might be gathered around the man of God, who becomes the least; as the wicked become the greatest. ( December 8, 1921 Letter to Harry McNeary) NOTE: Anointed of God was a title Wm Irvine used for himself. ________________________________________ "IF THERE HAD BEEN NO WM. IRVINE... THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TESTIMONY..." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards) Cherie, the man was dishonest to start with...he was employed by Faith Missions and what did he do? He did NOT deal with his employer honestly! That is according to what you've said also. I do not count much of what he said as truth...for he colored it with his flashes of delusions of grandeur and the letter you quoted up above is full of delusions of grandeur! [/quote][/quote]
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