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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 14:33:54 GMT -5
I wouldn't get involved with someone else's raising of children.....it doesn't work well. I would suggest a house. What ideas do you have? I was discussing recent events with my wife today at lunch, and in particular the ministry. We don't like the problems, and yet there are many things we do like. I sometimes think the fellowship is getting to be more and more like some of the Utopian sects that have come and gone like the Doukhobours, Shakers, Amana colony and so on. I don't exactly know why these groups dissolved but lately I've been getting a fairly good idea. The first problem is that you can love your earthly leader or leaders too much. Take Peter Veregin in the Doukhobour colony. No question he was a great man, and the people loved and adored him. But this love creates a vacuum around the central figure. Peter had to solve every problem and no one else knew or had the power to resolve anything. Second, you believe you belong to a Utopian community where the usual kind of nasty, worldly things just do not happen. So you just don't need to deal or prepare for those kinds of things. Like a fellow member wanting to burn your house down, for example. Third, you believe the structure of your society is God-given and supposedly already as perfect as can be, so it never needs to adapt or change. The result of these three factors: unfortunately, a power and control structure that knows no bounds in its glorious incompetence. You've probably guessed that I am referencing a specific recent event as I describe this in somewhat abstract and remote terms. Continued ....
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 14:39:30 GMT -5
I said there are also things we do like about the worker ministry. Sincerity, seriousness of purpose, divinely inspired and transcendent ideals and teaching, focus, genuine love, agape in practice.
And here are some things that I don't like about the kind of ministers who live in their own houses. Imagine getting a bad one, whose sermons make absolutely no sense, and then being stuck with that man for ten years. Every Sunday, twice. Not an uncommon kind of situation. Imagine the politics that result when you have disagreements with the minister because it's all about that one minister and his relationship with "his flock". Or you're a small church in a large denomination, you find a good minister, and he or she is promoted as a result to a bigger and better paying congregation. The only one you manage to keep is the one that's not so good. Everyone rises to their level of incompetence. Then there's the minister who swears a lot so that he can "fit in" with his parishioners. Or tells jokes or talks about last night's hockey games in his sermons. I'm not judging those individual things, but you might say the seriousness of purpose is sometimes lacking when it's just seen as a 'job'.
I have also met some really good, caring, honourable ministers in other churches. I think the problem is making sure you get one of those, and can keep one when you get him or her. So much depends on that one minister.
Taken straight up, as a ministry and only a ministry, there is much to like about the homeless ministry. Who else has something like this? There are Catholic priest orders of one kind or another. There are orders within the Buddhist religion. Peter Waldo started one and there have been homeless ministries through the ages.
But will it last?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 14:58:10 GMT -5
So how would you, a member, go about getting rid of a worker (especially an overseer) who has risen to his level of incompetence?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 15:04:14 GMT -5
So how would you, a member, go about getting rid of a worker (especially an overseer) who has risen to his level of incompetence? Incompetence is a fact of life. However, in the firmament of incompetence I do like a change of scenery once in a while. But aside from the fact that workers change fields and move around, I appreciate that each one has different gifts and there is some flexibility in how those are put to work. Some are not as good at preaching, to take one example, but are wonderful in pastoral care. So if you get one like that in the field, doesn't mean you're not going to get wonderful preaching somewhere else. The whole system is a little more flexible and balanced. Granted I'm hugely generalizing and local situations can vary. I guess the other thing, ilylo, when it comes to preaching, I'm not much for being preached at once or twice a week anyway. I prefer the Sunday meeting and Bible study formats.
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Post by JO on Jul 9, 2009 15:05:35 GMT -5
Instead of Jesus being our prophet, priest and king we give those roles to a "ministry", a higher tier of believer.
All believers should be ministering to one another, and to the world.
Matthew 23:8-12 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 15:21:57 GMT -5
So how would you, a member, go about getting rid of a worker (especially an overseer) who has risen to his level of incompetence? Incompetence is a fact of life. However, in the firmament of incompetence I do like a change of scenery once in a while. But aside from the fact that workers change fields and move around, I appreciate that each one has different gifts and there is some flexibility in how those are put to work. Some are not as good at preaching, to take one example, but are wonderful in pastoral care. So if you get one like that in the field, doesn't mean you're not going to get wonderful preaching somewhere else. The whole system is a little more flexible and balanced. Granted I'm hugely generalizing and local situations can vary. I guess the other thing, ilylo, when it comes to preaching, I'm not much for being preached at once or twice a week anyway. I prefer the Sunday meeting and Bible study formats. So how do you, a member, get rid of a worker (especially an overseer) who has risen to his level of incompetence?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 16:04:58 GMT -5
Incompetence is a fact of life. However, in the firmament of incompetence I do like a change of scenery once in a while. But aside from the fact that workers change fields and move around, I appreciate that each one has different gifts and there is some flexibility in how those are put to work. Some are not as good at preaching, to take one example, but are wonderful in pastoral care. So if you get one like that in the field, doesn't mean you're not going to get wonderful preaching somewhere else. The whole system is a little more flexible and balanced. Granted I'm hugely generalizing and local situations can vary. I guess the other thing, ilylo, when it comes to preaching, I'm not much for being preached at once or twice a week anyway. I prefer the Sunday meeting and Bible study formats. So how do you, a member, get rid of a worker (especially an overseer) who has risen to his level of incompetence? *chortle* At it again, I see, ilylo. In fact, I had a premonition you were going to answer exactly like that. And here was and is my answer: Incompetence is a fact of life. In other words, you don't ... if we're discussing overseers, that is. Workers move around, as you know.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 16:24:48 GMT -5
Exactly. If you get stuck with a dunce for an overseer... oh well!
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 16:33:14 GMT -5
Exactly. If you get stuck with a dunce for an overseer... oh well! Not exactly, oh well, either. And intelligence isn't necessarily the only issue. I think we also have the problem that 'overseer' has quite a different skill orientation than worker. Best or great worker may not make a very good overseer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2009 16:37:13 GMT -5
Exactly. If you get stuck with a dunce for an overseer... oh well! A dunce for an overseer might not be such a bad thing. However, if there is a harmful overseer, you make your case to his peer group. A suffciient number of eloquent complaints may lead to a new status for him. If the complaint is of a minor nature, don't even bother.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 9, 2009 16:38:00 GMT -5
I said there are also things we do like about the worker ministry. Sincerity, seriousness of purpose, divinely inspired and transcendent ideals and teaching, focus, genuine love, agape in practice. And here are some things that I don't like about the kind of ministers who live in their own houses. Imagine getting a bad one, whose sermons make absolutely no sense, and then being stuck with that man for ten years. Every Sunday, twice. Not an uncommon kind of situation. Imagine the politics that result when you have disagreements with the minister because it's all about that one minister and his relationship with "his flock". Or you're a small church in a large denomination, you find a good minister, and he or she is promoted as a result to a bigger and better paying congregation. The only one you manage to keep is the one that's not so good. Everyone rises to their level of incompetence. Then there's the minister who swears a lot so that he can "fit in" with his parishioners. Or tells jokes or talks about last night's hockey games in his sermons. I'm not judging those individual things, but you might say the seriousness of purpose is sometimes lacking when it's just seen as a 'job'. I have also met some really good, caring, honourable ministers in other churches. I think the problem is making sure you get one of those, and can keep one when you get him or her. So much depends on that one minister. Taken straight up, as a ministry and only a ministry, there is much to like about the homeless ministry. Who else has something like this? There are Catholic priest orders of one kind or another. There are orders within the Buddhist religion. Peter Waldo started one and there have been homeless ministries through the ages. But will it last? 0 I have been in a number of churches since leaving meetings and have never been in one that is run like you say. Members can get rid of a minister when they want. it is the members that 'call him' and it is the members who the minister is accountable to. He serves the people, not the other way around. There are many churches, so a person doesn't have to stay in the one if he doesn't like it. Not like the meetings where you have to go to the one in your area as their is no choice. No one is stuck with a pastor they do not like, like they are in meetings. In my area there are probably about 6 Baptist churches between where I live and where a meeting is held. So I have a choice of 6 if I don't' like one and it would still be closer than going to a meetings. most churches have elders who are in charge of things, that is why they have elders. The pastor is also under the elders. I have not met bad preachers like I have in meetings. Most years the workers preaching was bad. Many were dead boring with people falling asleep. This was not with one person for one year, it is most years. So one boring man most of the time or many boring men or women all the time - what is the difference? Good churches are not controlled by the person at the top like the workers ministry is. Baptist churches for example are run by the people, and elders, not the pastor. In the church I attend 25% of the time there would be other speakers. The pastor has only spoken about 2 times in the last 2 -3 months.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 16:38:15 GMT -5
Exactly. If you get stuck with a dunce for an overseer... oh well! Not exactly, oh well, either. And intelligence isn't necessarily the only issue. I think we also have the problem that 'overseer' has quite a different skill orientation than worker. Best or great worker may not make a very good overseer. It doesn't matter. You can substitute whatever word for "dunce" as you want. It doesn't change a thing. You, the member, have no means by which to get things changed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2009 16:39:19 GMT -5
Hi all, this is my first post, I only found this website a few days ago. I could hardly believe it when I came across this discussion and I’ll tell you why… Before I do so, to Jesusonly and those of a similar mind: Please, please don’t leave the fellowship! I feel similar to you about many ‘offences’, I hate the victories the devil has won. But I do feel that God is still working and dealing within the fellowship. Remember your testimony, how you heard the gospel in the beginning and how it won your heart, times you know God has spoken, dealt with your heart. We are those to whom God has made aware the ‘offenses’ and he hasn’t done that for nothing. I feel I am one of the ‘seeing and staying’ people, we want to let him use us for good within the fellowship! The reason I had to post is this, I am being called to the work and also to marriage! Maybe now is not the time or place to detail my testimony but in a nutshell I’ve known for years I am being called to the work and all the while I struggled terribly with the prospect of living all my life a single man. Whenever I came to God for help with my problem he always said ‘get married’. And of course because I thought the two were mutually exclusive, I thought that meant I wasn’t to be in the work. Then the call to the work would return and I’d be confused. Then God revealed that I was being called to both the work and marriage and that married workers are within his will and finally my testimony made sense, everything fell into place! And now just waiting for God to do it. Hard to take in that you guys are actually discussing this, and in a (reasonably ) sensible manner! It’s comforting to know I’m not the only one God is moving to think about these things. And it is evidence that this is God’s will and soon will be his time to change this great ‘stumbling block’ in the fellowship. There has been some discussion about the practical aspects. This hindered me for a while too. But I’ve come to feel that the question we should really be asking is, what was God thinking when he was planning salvation for humanity back at the dawn of time? Imagine the scene, he had worked out that his Son would come to bring us salvation through his death and resurrection, and then was thinking how to spread the story to the world- send out workers, dedicating their lives to spread the word, going in faith, with the power, guidance and comfort of the Spirit. He obviously thought of whether they should be married or not. If it was always his plan that workers would renounce marriage, if that was a crucial part of it, then Jesus would have made it clear when he was on earth. But Jesus never said that. And I don’t believe compulsory singleness was ever in the mind of God. And certainly not for those who didn’t have a gift of singleness like Paul did (1 Corinthians 7:7). Anyway, for me, my testimony has the matter settled and like Jesus said, the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it. And marriage in most cases brings kids. How would that work?! I thought, what does a child really need? A big toy box? A comfortable home? A good school? I’ve come to the conclusion that a child really only needs happy, caring and most of all loving parents. And this is not beyond any married workers. I think we are limiting God’s will, power and provision by saying don’t have kids etc. Read the story on Cherie’s website of a married worker pair in NZ some years back www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/beatties.phpRemember our God, that he is able to do as he calls. Nothing is beyond him. If we trust him, believe him, go out in faith. By ourselves it is impossible, but that is the point! God specialises in the impossible! And about staying in the friends’ homes, instead of having two men or women come to your home there might be a man and wife and a few kids too and they might stay a month or two or three. Might be a bigger upheaval than the usual 'stay for a week or 2 and don’t disturb my life’ scenario. But is that not what God planned? Read up about it (e.g. Luke 10:7) and you will see it is! Someone said it wouldn’t be an easy life. Was Jesus’ life easy? Or Paul’s, James’s, Peter’s etc etc?! Are we following Christ because we are looking for an easy life? Is it not because we are looking for a rich, happy and rewarding life and eternal life? His individual will for our lives and his work in us and through us, unlimited by ourselves or anyone else, is what really matters for each person- accomplished by him living within through his Spirit. Oh and if there are any females also called to be a married worker and in their 20s then please get in touch… complete with photo
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 16:40:34 GMT -5
How do you think this was taken care of in bible days? ~~ Well, in the Bible days I didn't read any married apostles had children with them.
If you were married workers with 3 children how would you go about it?Nathan, I think we forget that Jesus's first disciples were fishermen. And He also told them He'd make them fishers of men! Didn't He? Now think about fishermen...they have to be gone from home, long days and nights in order to make a living don't they? It was probably much worse in Jesus' day because there wasn't outboard motors even....so it took longer to get out and come back and with a loaded boat I'm sure rowing was extrenuous labor! I strongly suspect that was one reason Jesus called them to His side and that was they'd understand just what it would take to be "fishers of men".....if you think fish take time to catch, it takes much longer to catch men! Doesn't it?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 16:41:19 GMT -5
if there is a harmful overseer, you make your case to his peer group. A suffciient number of eloquent complaints may lead to a new status for him. Good luck with that. If the complaint is of a minor nature, don't even bother. Yup. No recourse.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 9, 2009 16:48:52 GMT -5
Sorry over the rainbow, I am too old!! but.......
You could start the change. Change to the way it was in the Bible. They say the way never changes. Married and called into the work. Nathan says it is too hard to be a worker and married. I don't' agree. Many married people are called into the work. Missionaries do it all the time. Is staying in an area for one year or two years until you are told by men to move on scriptural? In the beginning the workers went where the spirit led. If God is calling you to be in the work and married then he is calling you. Also you don't have to join with an organization but where would your money come from if you did not go out as a worker in the workers group. Your financial support comes from them, that is why you have to go by their rules.
break the mold, step out in faith. That reminds me, I thought the worker es went out by faith. Hardly so when the group is a financial organization that offers financial support to its workers. How is that any difference from other churches or missionary groups.
Missionaries do it all the time, kids and ministry. Is it a lack of faith that stops people doing it? is it a need for financial support for the workers and a ready made congregation that stops workers truly going out in faith and not being tied to the organization of the group?
All the best over the rainbow
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 16:53:30 GMT -5
Instead of Jesus being our prophet, priest and king we give those roles to a "ministry", a higher tier of believer. All believers should be ministering to one another, and to the world. Matthew 23:8-12 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. JO! What do you propose the fellowship do to make this equal "minstering" come about? Get rid of the top tier, the "workership"? And everybody just be the "friends"? That'd do away with all the going here and there for convs. and spec. mtgs. Everybody would minister in their own backyards so-to-speak?
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 16:56:13 GMT -5
Exactly. If you get stuck with a dunce for an overseer... oh well! Not exactly, oh well, either. And intelligence isn't necessarily the only issue. I think we also have the problem that 'overseer' has quite a different skill orientation than worker. Best or great worker may not make a very good overseer. It seems to be the way of the different business applications that often put a person who is unable to put to practice what they well know into a supervisory position! So I guess it just goes to follow that'd happen in the overseer positions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2009 17:03:37 GMT -5
believer: couldn't agree more, it's all about going out in faith. I don't want any financial support structure but to prove the power and provision of God, like the workers in times past knew of.
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 17:08:06 GMT -5
Hi all, this is my first post, I only found this website a few days ago. I could hardly believe it when I came across this discussion and I’ll tell you why… The reason I had to post is this, I am being called to the work and also to marriage! Maybe now is not the time or place to detail my testimony but in a nutshell I’ve known for years I am being called to the work and all the while I struggled terribly with the prospect of living all my life a single man. Whenever I came to God for help with my problem he always said ‘get married’. And of course because I thought the two were mutually exclusive, I thought that meant I wasn’t to be in the work. Then the call to the work would return and I’d be confused. Then God revealed that I was being called to both the work and marriage and that married workers are within his will and finally my testimony made sense, everything fell into place! And now just waiting for God to do it. overtherainbow, I hate to be the bearer of bad news....but I'd be remiss not to tell you that a "married worker" is NOT going to happen for sometime! Any "married worker" that is known of these days were "A married couple" BEFORE they heard the Truth and most of them have had to be childless....I'm thinking of one couple that used to be in the French West Indies. IF you think you're called to be a worker and you're just 20ish, I will advise you like I advise anyone thinking about going into the medical field.....try it on first! And I'll tell you this...EVEN IF you were married and both you and your spouse were desiring to be in the work...you'd have to go separately from one another for the first couple years...you'd each be assigned with a same sex companion! But what I'd advise YOU to do, is to go into the work as a SINGLE person and just see if that life is for you! There's always the chance you'll meet the spouse God intends for you to have....many do and if you don't then you'll know that the work is where you belong as long as your health holds up! You have your youth and your health all in your good favor, so try the work on for size...nothing and no one can make you stay but you and God. Many young folks when they're not certain what God is telling them to do, have gone ahead into the work to make sure....because once you get married...you'll be passed over for workership....that's almost a certainty. However! There are many needs for stable godly couples as friends! Blessings on your choice!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2009 17:19:42 GMT -5
Sharon, thanks for that, but I wasn't born yesterday!! I'm thankful for your post and advice but I know very well married workers aren't allowed, are a big no no etc! That is where the power of God comes in, to change things that his will be done. For the past 10 or more years I've felt called to the work and marriage and struggled so much with both until finally, randomly an old worker who didn't even know me told me he believed in married workers, I hadn't even considered it! It made so much sense, suddenly life seemed possible again. As I said, it is my testimony, I know it sounds pompous but God has revealed this, and if the gates of Hell can't prevail against it (Matthew 16:18) then I doubt it very much if a few overseers are going to be able to stop it. It's his work, I'm planning to just keep on praying and see it happen, watch this space
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 17:24:26 GMT -5
Not exactly, oh well, either. And intelligence isn't necessarily the only issue. I think we also have the problem that 'overseer' has quite a different skill orientation than worker. Best or great worker may not make a very good overseer. It doesn't matter. You can substitute whatever word for "dunce" as you want. It doesn't change a thing. You, the member, have no means by which to get things changed. Gee, ilylo. I can't even agree with you and you want to argue!
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 17:28:26 GMT -5
I said there are also things we do like about the worker ministry. Sincerity, seriousness of purpose, divinely inspired and transcendent ideals and teaching, focus, genuine love, agape in practice. And here are some things that I don't like about the kind of ministers who live in their own houses. Imagine getting a bad one, whose sermons make absolutely no sense, and then being stuck with that man for ten years. Every Sunday, twice. Not an uncommon kind of situation. Imagine the politics that result when you have disagreements with the minister because it's all about that one minister and his relationship with "his flock". Or you're a small church in a large denomination, you find a good minister, and he or she is promoted as a result to a bigger and better paying congregation. The only one you manage to keep is the one that's not so good. Everyone rises to their level of incompetence. Then there's the minister who swears a lot so that he can "fit in" with his parishioners. Or tells jokes or talks about last night's hockey games in his sermons. I'm not judging those individual things, but you might say the seriousness of purpose is sometimes lacking when it's just seen as a 'job'. I have also met some really good, caring, honourable ministers in other churches. I think the problem is making sure you get one of those, and can keep one when you get him or her. So much depends on that one minister. Taken straight up, as a ministry and only a ministry, there is much to like about the homeless ministry. Who else has something like this? There are Catholic priest orders of one kind or another. There are orders within the Buddhist religion. Peter Waldo started one and there have been homeless ministries through the ages. But will it last? 0 I have been in a number of churches since leaving meetings and have never been in one that is run like you say. Members can get rid of a minister when they want. it is the members that 'call him' and it is the members who the minister is accountable to. He serves the people, not the other way around. There are many churches, so a person doesn't have to stay in the one if he doesn't like it. Not like the meetings where you have to go to the one in your area as their is no choice. No one is stuck with a pastor they do not like, like they are in meetings. In my area there are probably about 6 Baptist churches between where I live and where a meeting is held. So I have a choice of 6 if I don't' like one and it would still be closer than going to a meetings. most churches have elders who are in charge of things, that is why they have elders. The pastor is also under the elders. I have not met bad preachers like I have in meetings. Most years the workers preaching was bad. Many were dead boring with people falling asleep. This was not with one person for one year, it is most years. So one boring man most of the time or many boring men or women all the time - what is the difference? Good churches are not controlled by the person at the top like the workers ministry is. Baptist churches for example are run by the people, and elders, not the pastor. In the church I attend 25% of the time there would be other speakers. The pastor has only spoken about 2 times in the last 2 -3 months. I know how churches are run. From my family and many friends and acquaintances in other churches. Those are all real-life anecdotes. And, there's a long line of preachers in my extended family. Incidentally, very well regarded and not boring. At the same time, I'm not arguing with your perspective and thanks for adding it.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2009 17:31:47 GMT -5
Instead of Jesus being our prophet, priest and king we give those roles to a "ministry", a higher tier of believer. All believers should be ministering to one another, and to the world. Matthew 23:8-12 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. JO! What do you propose the fellowship do to make this equal "minstering" come about? Get rid of the top tier, the "workership"? And everybody just be the "friends"? That'd do away with all the going here and there for convs. and spec. mtgs. Everybody would minister in their own backyards so-to-speak? Sounds like the Plymouth Brethren, actually.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 9, 2009 17:33:45 GMT -5
It doesn't matter. You can substitute whatever word for "dunce" as you want. It doesn't change a thing. You, the member, have no means by which to get things changed. Gee, ilylo. I can't even agree with you and you want to argue! Au contraire... my argument is not with you. I trust you understand that.
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Post by JO on Jul 9, 2009 17:39:37 GMT -5
Instead of Jesus being our prophet, priest and king we give those roles to a "ministry", a higher tier of believer. All believers should be ministering to one another, and to the world. Matthew 23:8-12 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. JO! What do you propose the fellowship do to make this equal "minstering" come about? Get rid of the top tier, the "workership"? And everybody just be the "friends"? That'd do away with all the going here and there for convs. and spec. mtgs. Everybody would minister in their own backyards so-to-speak? Yes, everyone would minister in their own backyards so to speak, or as Nate said "bloom where you are planted". The Spirit might move some back yards around of course. When folks are called to minister as single people that's great. But much of what workers do could be done by the local believers. Most of what workers do is visit the friends and preach to the friends, which could be done by married believers. What many of us do is try to fit our system into the NT, treating our system as a given - the only way that ministry can get done. I agree that married workers wouldn't work too well in the ministry system as it is. However, I maintain that ministry and marriage were not mutually exclusive in scripture. I also maintain that one group of believers should not lord it over the other believers.
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 19:11:49 GMT -5
Sharon, thanks for that, but I wasn't born yesterday!! I'm thankful for your post and advice but I know very well married workers aren't allowed, are a big no no etc! That is where the power of God comes in, to change things that his will be done. For the past 10 or more years I've felt called to the work and marriage and struggled so much with both until finally, randomly an old worker who didn't even know me told me he believed in married workers, I hadn't even considered it! It made so much sense, suddenly life seemed possible again. As I said, it is my testimony, I know it sounds pompous but God has revealed this, and if the gates of Hell can't prevail against it (Matthew 16:18) then I doubt it very much if a few overseers are going to be able to stop it. It's his work, I'm planning to just keep on praying and see it happen, watch this space As I said, I'd advise trying the "worker shoes" on before you settle down to whatever...while you're young and frisky...but if this is a come-on posting just to start something...have your fun!
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Post by sharon on Jul 9, 2009 19:16:51 GMT -5
JO! What do you propose the fellowship do to make this equal "minstering" come about? Get rid of the top tier, the "workership"? And everybody just be the "friends"? That'd do away with all the going here and there for convs. and spec. mtgs. Everybody would minister in their own backyards so-to-speak? Yes, everyone would minister in their own backyards so to speak, or as Nate said "bloom where you are planted". The Spirit might move some back yards around of course. When folks are called to minister as single people that's great. But much of what workers do could be done by the local believers. Most of what workers do is visit the friends and preach to the friends, which could be done by married believers. What many of us do is try to fit our system into the NT, treating our system as a given - the only way that ministry can get done. I agree that married workers wouldn't work too well in the ministry system as it is. However, I maintain that ministry and marriage were not mutually exclusive in scripture. I also maintain that one group of believers should not lord it over the other believers. No, the lording over a group by another is spoken against by Paul, wasn't it??? Didn't he say that the "workers" were to be ensamples not lords? That other ways of life have the lords and the servants, but Christ's gospel was not to be that way? I was wondering, what is your thought to do with the traveling that is so prevalent among the workers this day? Seems some of them aren't even able to hold a constant mission without having to depart and fly here and there for spec. mtgs. or convs. though I have to say the "excitement" the friends give off about "who" the visitors are has caused a lot of that!
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