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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 10:52:29 GMT -5
Look at who WmI was writing to when he stated that he had started "The Testimony" (what he called the F&Ws or 2x2 sect) —He was addressing people who would KNOW for certain whether he was lying or telling the truth. Would you lie to people who knew you when you grew up in Kilsythe and went on the Bicycle "test drive" trip in 1899 with you (John Hardie); who were there with you in the beginning (Eddie Cooney; Bill Carroll) and who could call your hand on it and laugh in your face if it were not true?? Now, would you? I think NOT. Check out the following statements and who WmI said them to. NOTE: "Testimony" was the term Wm Irvine used in his letters to refer to the Workers & Friends Fellowship, 2x2s, Go-Preacher Movement, Tramp Preachers, "the truth", etc. that he started. “Looking back over 20 years, it was a big job to gather, mother, teach, guide, lead and scatter over the world, a seed in Alpha Days. But I managed it. It was hard to get people to see, feel and do what I had done IN STARTING ALONE, and finding room and people in the world for my Message; and once people tested it out, they found it possible, just as if the world was virgin soil. But it was the way to reveal the strong from the weak. And my job was to lead the way so that others could follow and find, that what was possible to me was, for them, comparatively easy, if they faced it. And once a year I visited them to cheer, strengthen, and supply what was lacking in their witness.” (June 2, 1933 Letter to Hulls) (Followers of Wm Irvine's Omega Message) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY. The mountains echo and re-echo the human voice, and so The Testimony was the echo and re-echo of the Voice of God through my lips, though I knew it not then, as I do today. For the Prophets and Apostles only got to know who they were, when they found themselves the victims of the iniquity and Scandal of those who were called the Church, or seal of their Anointing...I planted the Vineyard and it has fallen into the hands of wicked husbandmen. And I am the Servant sent to find the fruit; and those who mistreat the Servant are the same as the killers of the Son and Heir...whose end is destruction." (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker- entered work in 1901) “These 26-1/2 years is but half of my nearly 54 years of being the Son of Man, and hid from men's eyes and now about to be revealed. 26 years giving Alpha Message and seeing it finished up as in Matt. 24; leaving the Tares which the devil sowed to the Testimony cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites LIVING BY WHAT I HAD MADE FOR THEM." (May 6, 1946 Letter to Dunbars) (Some loyal followers of Wm Irvine--letters in TTT files to them from 1919 to 1946.) “Think of all I did for you, and others, in spite of my sins!… Fancy the labor in building a house for God, and the pain of seeing it become a den of thieves!! (August 28, 1920 Letter to John Hardie).(Worker and childhood friend of Wm Irvine from Kilsyth Scotland; entered work in 1900) “God made ME the FIRST head of the family. He did the calling by ME, and now these past seven years, he is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. It was so wonderful, both in numbers who heard, the numbers who professed, the numbers of workers, the ground covered with the clearness of the truth as it is in Jesus. But the end of the Jesus Way is to choose his Bride from among those who have had all these privileges...The dragon with seven heads is those who sat themselves up as Leaders of The Testimony and use their Horns of Authority to hurt others and are claimed by men as Leaders…deliver you from the power of the greatest set of robbers in the world history, who thought they could rob ME and those of what God had given them." (August 17, 1921 Letter to Fred Hanowell. (Worker) "If there had been no Wm Irvine, there would have been no Testimony. This was the general witness by all. If there had been no Wm Irvine found wise and faithful, there would have been no Son of Man chosen to rule His Household and give them meat in due season these 24 years past. Has any other known person done this--and now being so clearly fulfilled before their eyes and working into their hearts and lives everywhere as they see it fulfilled. And so fear is on all our enemies as it brings joy to all who are His Household. "Not every one that says Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but they that do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. Then shall I (Jesus) say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)(Early Worker) "Six years ago, in April, I was rejected and despised and cast out to die, according to prophecy, my birthright divided amongst my children and enemies (and I was willing), but the anointing that God gave me remained with me, and nobody seems to get my mantle, though many have tried my shoes, sat in my seat, slept in my bed, ate my meals and have enjoyed the rise to power and pre-eminence...When the world and Testimony set out to bury me, and forget my name, person, presence and etc. they failed. The Jesus Way was stolen, confiscated, misappropriated. I remember seeing and hearing you take it over in my presence.” (June 29, 1920 Letter to Wm Carroll) (Worker - entered work in 1903) “You and Co. [the other workers] stole all God and His Anointed produced, but you did not steal the root nor the power which made my mustard seed.” (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie)(Worker - entered work in 1901) “I was pleased to see your letter and to hear of some evidence of returning humanity in three of you, for that will precede any hope of deliverance from the snare of the Devil, into which you have all fallen, and which accounts for the deadness and corruption, which characterized the whole Testimony these 9 years. And if nobody else knows it, I do; and always knew more of these conditions than anyone else. And rightly so, for The Testimony was the Seal of God and proof of MY Anointing. And if I was not the Father, certainly I was not the Brother of any. God never gathered brethren but by a father, and all your attempts to change these facts only reveals the secrets of your hearts and leaves you where you began, and as you began—without God, and knowing it not, though full of zeal, knowledge, profession and fruit, which you long ago recognized was only adding to the wickedness of the world… “ (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker - entered work in 1901) "For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find, as did Paul, that false Apostles and prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually under their power….I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and S. Africa….I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918 and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thots and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust." (October 16, 1934 Letter to Mr. Thorp) (New Convert to Wm Irvine's Omega Message) " The record of the whole book shows that The Man God Anointed to BEGIN the work, is the one He uses to finish it; and it's always revealed in similar ways. The wicked always are the rejecters; the Lamb of God seed, led by the anointed of God, are the rejected. The whole Bible is a record of the few men who were the anointed of God bringing blessing to many; and then rejected by the many, that the few sheep might be gathered around the man of God, who becomes the least; as the wicked become the greatest. ( December 8, 1921 Letter to Harry McNeary) NOTE: Anointed of God was a title Wm Irvine used for himself. ________________________________________ "IF THERE HAD BEEN NO WM. IRVINE... THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TESTIMONY..." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards) Cherie, the man was dishonest to start with...he was employed by Faith Missions and what did he do? He did NOT deal with his employer honestly! That is according to what you've said also. I do not count much of what he said as truth...for he colored it with his flashes of delusions of grandeur and the letter you quoted up above is full of delusions of grandeur! [/quote]
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 10:56:59 GMT -5
NOT! WmI didn't want to--it wasn't his intention--but he did it anyway--Yes, he DID found a new sect. There was nothing else like it when he started it--Faith Mission verified that in a letter to me that is on TTT. But Faith Mission seems to be a lot like the workers' movement. It seems he did not leave on good terms. That's all "NO connection" means. That's not what I would look at in determining whether there is a connection. In what way is the doctrine of Faith Mission substantially different from that of the workers? That should determine the connection. Incidentally, I don't know the answer, but I know they are close. That all seems quite right. But don't forget Cooney and the mysterious shadow of John Kelley. I've been thinking that given the emphasis on a 2x2 ministry, would Irvine not have had a partner right from early days.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 11:00:01 GMT -5
Why does this keep happening, when someone posts a reply it keeps coming back as part of the quote? I've noticed this on other people's replies? Oh, looks like some kind of bug. Can you delete the extraneous post, Sharon?
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 11:05:39 GMT -5
what wrote: what, could you please define "splintering off" as you and Sharon are using the term? To me, it merely means that was the church/group someone was in when they left it and started another movement/church. Google: A group, such as a religious sect or political faction, that has broken away from a parent group. How many people have to break away for this to be a viable term to be applied to the sect WmI Founded? Would 3 be sufficient? Also, what about WmI's Presbyterian background? He was still a Presbyterian while he was a preacher in Faith Mission. How does that figure ito the splinter group? Also, WmI was revived in Rev John McNeil's revival, who was a part of Moody's group of revivalist. How does all this figure into "splintering off" off? Are you sure it was FM he "splintered off" of? Or was it the Presbyterian church? As I mentioned, or asked rather, the main criteria would be common doctrine. That would be an easy one, as FM doctrine is readily available. I believe FM continues today pretty much as they did last century. I've heard of FM preachers in our area. We do know they would not be preaching about home churches. And I would look for a "critical mass" of founders of the new group emerging from the original group. Quite often a schism or separation is absolutely clear, as when an existing denomination splits in two, or the entire new group are ex-members of the old group. I was reacting to your statement that Irvine started something entirely new. Of course, nothing is ever entirely new, so the question remains, how new was it?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 11:05:58 GMT -5
"That all seems quite right. But don't forget Cooney and the mysterious shadow of John Kelley.
I've been thinking that given the emphasis on a 2x2 ministry, would Irvine not have had a partner right from early days. "
what! According to what Cherie has said and posted on this particular topic, John Kelly was the "presidential" advisor, much like the nation attributed Cheney with Bush's tactics as president.....so I have to think that John Kelly was as much a "founder" of the "workers" going outside the Faith Mission as WI was.
I'm not saying that WI did NOT "gather" together his own tribe of workers, but he took what the Faith Mission had already begun just a short 10-11 yrs before and "experimented" with it....it was a "group" of those workers who decided about 4 yrs. later they needed to start "living what they were preaching." That is from some of the beginning workers' stories that's been told on this forum!
Then it was even a couple years later that they decided to "form a fellowship" of their converts...they begin to have MORE workers then their funds and needs could handle, so it was conducive to "form" or "found" the fellowship.
The truth's fellowship as it is today is NOT what was started in 1897 by WI, J. Kelly or whoever else was in that first group of "workers" that departed ways with the Faith Mission. The laxity of the Faith Mission in letting the new converts go to whatever church was convenient is the very thing that "caused" the "founding" of the fellowship.....otherwise the "workers" under WI as overseer would have never been moved to "form" or "found" the truth's fellowship....they would have continued just like they started, converting but not caring for them!
It was out of necessity to form or found the fellowship...it actually was a 2 tier development...WI did not found the fellowship even with strong imagination on our part...he may have found the ministry of itinerant workers, but his part is nothing more then that!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 11:13:18 GMT -5
Can't you get ANYTHING RIGHT? John KELLY was nothing of the sort. You're thinking about John LONG. it's a good thing you're not writing a historical account, Sharon! Also, "that first group of "workers" that departed ways with the Faith Mission" was THREE men: Wm Irvine, John Kelly and one other in the year 1901. Is that a GROUP? A mass exodus? A splinter group? We dont even know if they all left at the same time--only that they left in the same year. And the others submitted themselves to WmI's founding overseership. Where did John Long claim (or perform) the least bit of leadership in the group's start-up? Other than being at the first gospel missions whre WmI preached on independent lines? Check out JL's words when WmI kicked him out - he uses words something to the effect "a movement he helped to start." Thats how he viewed his role in the group. "That all seems quite right. But don't forget Cooney and the mysterious shadow of John Kelley. I've been thinking that given the emphasis on a 2x2 ministry, would Irvine not have had a partner right from early days. " what! According to what Cherie has said and posted on this particular topic, John Kelly was the "presidential" advisor, much like the nation attributed Cheney with Bush's tactics as president.....so I have to think that John Kelly was as much a "founder" of the "workers" going outside the Faith Mission as WI was. I'm not saying that WI did NOT "gather" together his own tribe of workers, but he took what the Faith Mission had already begun just a short 10-11 yrs before and "experimented" with it....it was a "group" of those workers who decided about 4 yrs. later they needed to start "living what they were preaching." That is from some of the beginning workers' stories that's been told on this forum! Then it was even a couple years later that they decided to "form a fellowship" of their converts...they begin to have MORE workers then their funds and needs could handle, so it was conducive to "form" or "found" the fellowship. The truth's fellowship as it is today is NOT what was started in 1897 by WI, J. Kelly or whoever else was in that first group of "workers" that departed ways with the Faith Mission. The laxity of the Faith Mission in letting the new converts go to whatever church was convenient is the very thing that "caused" the "founding" of the fellowship.....otherwise the "workers" under WI as overseer would have never been moved to "form" or "found" the truth's fellowship....they would have continued just like they started, converting but not caring for them! It was out of necessity to form or found the fellowship...it actually was a 2 tier development...WI did not found the fellowship even with strong imagination on our part...he may have found the ministry of itinerant workers, but his part is nothing more then that!
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 11:18:08 GMT -5
I haven't read all these posts, but I hope Cherie isn't getting too frustrated by all this.
Some years ago was definitely an aura around the workers and the murky beginnings of the movement that should rightfully be dispelled with factual information. As I've said many times, I never felt lied to, but view this aura as the tendency of people to build up their social group and mythologize aspects of its existence including its origins.
Hey, I didn't read the post above when I wrote this one.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 11:21:50 GMT -5
Your church claims it is uniquely different from ALL other churches on earth...
Therefore, WmI founded something entirely "NEW" that wasnt in existence at the time he founded it; regardless of how closely it resembles FM. He did copy lots from their methods...but he made lots of changes also.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 11:35:43 GMT -5
"
2x2 wasn't the original emphasis - the original emphasis was FAITH LINES...the way the disciples were sent without financial provision. That underwrites what the workers do today.
Ever heard one of them ask for money? They would rather die first...than do that. That is their FOUNDATION principal: trusting God for the provisions for the ministers.
1st Faith Lines 2nd 2x2 ministers 3rd churches in the home & rebaptism (unchristianizing them J Long called it) 4th ONLY way doctrine.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 11:37:02 GMT -5
Your church claims it is uniquely different from ALL other churches on earth...I've heard many times from the platform that there are groups that are very close to the "truth".... but they don't have the Spirit. THAT'S the difference
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 11:50:16 GMT -5
NOPE - not trying to destroy it. Just trying to get it accurately described. Trying to destroy the lies about it that holds many a prisoner in it who doesnt want to be there. I dont care if it lives or dies. Dont care who chooses to be in it or to leave it. You just cant understand that, can you. I am a lover of TRUTH and I work to promote it. If it falls apart because the lies are exposed and revealed--it will just be reaping what it "sowed." 1) Cherie wrote: Your church claims it is uniquely different from ALL other churches on earth... Therefore, WmI founded something entirely "NEW" that wasnt in existence at the time he founded it; regardless of how closely it resembles FM. He did copy lots from their methods...but he made lots of changes also. ~~~ Many of WI and the 2x2 workers methods is found the New Testament church 2000 yrs ago.... HOW can it be entirely NEW?
I think you're trying to DESTROY something which it can't be done.
Acts 5:38-39 "... Leave these men (apostles) alone for if their purposeor activity be of human Origin, it will FAIL. But it be of God, ye CAN NOT be ABLE to STOP these men. You'll ONLY find yourself fighting against God." (NIV)
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 12:29:12 GMT -5
You ought to be SCARED - saying lies about me!
Where have I ever indicated God wasn't in your church?
I believe God indwells those who have made Him Lord in their lives; i.e. Christians. Churches are assemblies of Christians. God is in His chlidren who attend your church.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 13:17:14 GMT -5
~~~ If they didn't have the Spirit why were you in the fellowship for 30 yrs? What kind of Spirit did you possess during those 30 yrs? Read slower, Nate I said the WORKERS said that OTHER groups, even though very close, didn't have the Spirit. That is what the WORKERS explained to be the DIFFERENCE between themselves and others; IE the WORKERS claimed that they had the Spirit but others DIDN'T.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 13:48:55 GMT -5
Why didn't you write like that in the first place. Thanks, for the clarification. I don't understand how you misinterpreted my post the way you did, but glad to help
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2009 13:51:31 GMT -5
IE the WORKERS claimed that they had the Spirit but others DIDN'T. The workers appear to be following the lead of Jesus, who renounced the other religions of his day, too. "Ye are of your father, the devil!"
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 14:03:25 GMT -5
~~~ If they didn't have the Spirit why were you in the fellowship for 30 yrs? What kind of Spirit did you possess during those 30 yrs? Read slower, Nate I said the WORKERS said that OTHER groups, even though very close, didn't have the Spirit. That is what the WORKERS explained to be the DIFFERENCE between themselves and others; IE the WORKERS claimed that they had the Spirit but others DIDN'T. Yes, and how would the workers know who did NOT have the Spirit? Mind you, I came out of a church where I felt the work of the Spirit was lacking at the time. But all I can say with any certainty is that it was lacking in me.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 14:07:00 GMT -5
The workers appear to be following the lead of Jesus, who renounced the other religions of his day, too. "Ye are of your father, the devil!"
You consider calling other Christians "of the devil" to be following Jesus lead? Interesting. FWIW, "other religions" and "other denominations" do not mean the same thing.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 14:07:51 GMT -5
Yes, and how would the workers know who did NOT have the Spirit?Exactly
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Post by What Hat on Feb 13, 2009 14:09:57 GMT -5
" 2x2 wasn't the original emphasis - the original emphasis was FAITH LINES...the way the disciples were sent without financial provision. That underwrites what the workers do today. Ever heard one of them ask for money? They would rather die first...than do that. That is their FOUNDATION principal: trusting God for the provisions for the ministers. 1st Faith Lines 2nd 2x2 ministers 3rd churches in the home & rebaptism (unchristianizing them J Long called it) 4th ONLY way doctrine. Did you see my post # 138? Consider that information in light of the originality of 'faith lines'. I think I will catch you every time when you claim that this or that idea came from the mind of William Irvine, or had never been tried before. I know what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure how to say it either. This is why I've always objected to the word 'founder'.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 13, 2009 14:25:15 GMT -5
Hey dc! The workers appear to be following the lead of Jesus, who renounced the other religions of his day, too. "Ye are of your father, the devil!"Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees John 8
The Children of the Devil 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."All denominations that are truly Christian are members of the Church (body of Christ) Any worker (or any minister/pastor/whatever) claims that all other churches (denominations) do not have the Spirit, than I personally feel that shows that particular church (denomination) is exactly the type which Jesus is referring to. To deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others is pretty much blasphemy isn't it? Scott
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 15:08:03 GMT -5
What is your take. Thanks.
My take is that Scripture teaches against judging others. It also teaches that one can "quench" the Spirit, which I take to mean "hinder" or "stifle", not "extinguish". In other words, when I see someone level judgment against another, I do not conclude that means they don't have the Spirit, but I do feel such an expression is fleshly and that they are stifling His work in their lives, at that time.
I will duly note that you've attempted to turn the point of view from the workers judgment of those outside, to the exes view of those "inside". I accept that it works both ways, but IMO the "balance sheet" regarding judgment is heavily tilted towards the workers long held stance of judgment against any non-member of your fellowship.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2009 15:20:12 GMT -5
RE what wrote: "I think I will catch you every time..." ***What do you mean by this statement?
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 15:38:02 GMT -5
Thanks for that part. What would you say about some of the exes on here who are accusing the workers and the friends as a group is NOT of God. Is that right thing to say?
As a blanket statement? No. But I do believe there are doctrines that are universally inconsistent, at best and outright false, at worst. I do believe that there are characteristics that are unChrist-like. I do believe that there is a great tendency to consider the fellowship as a whole, and the workers in particular, beyond criticism. I do believe that the judgment of "outsiders" to be lost is offensive.
If you want to stop the accusations that your group is not "of God", then stop viewing "outsiders" as lost. Do you realize how patently absurd it is to view someone as lost, and then expect them them in turn to view your group as "of God"?
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 15:57:12 GMT -5
Yes, and how would the workers know who did NOT have the Spirit? Mind you, I came out of a church where I felt the work of the Spirit was lacking at the time. But all I can say with any certainty is that it was lacking in me. This is what happens so often I think. Many have come from other churches to ours and spoken of coming from deadness to life. That is used to confirm that our church alone is "the truth". And some folks say the same when they leave our church to join something else. Often that is considered confirmation that our church is dead.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2009 16:01:57 GMT -5
Scott, Christianity has a history of denouncing other religions/denominations/groups/thinkers that think differently. And it shouldn't surprise us, I was just pointing out that it goes all the way back to Jesus. You consider calling other Christians "of the devil" to be following Jesus lead? Interesting. FWIW, "other religions" and "other denominations" do not mean the same thing. The similarities between the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, Christians were far more striking than their differences. Christians initially counted themselves part of Judaism; they worshipped together in the Temple and synagogues. The schism really didn't occur until the 80's, when Jews began to put Christians out of the synagogues. So, I guess you could say Jesus was denouncing his brethren in other denominations of the same religion.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 16:07:44 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: "If people don't want follow the New Testament Itinerant ministry and the fellowship that's their choice... and just leave at that."
I certainly do not want to follow any ministry or fellowship - I will follow Jesus and him only. I will meet with other Christians for edification and fellowship but I will not follow them, as Jesus only is our guide who I will follow.
Be careful Cherie, they are out to catch you!!
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 16:18:20 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: "If people don't want follow the New Testament Itinerant ministry and the fellowship that's their choice... and just leave at that."
1) believer: I certainly do not want to follow any ministry or fellowship - I will follow Jesus and him only. I will meet with other Christians for edification and fellowship but I will not follow them, as Jesus only is our guide who I will follow. ~~~ So, believer when you were a 2x2 did you follow Jesus and worshiping Him? You wrote the words Nathan, not me. So maybe you should ask yourself that question. Do you follow a ministry or Jesus? it is not about returning to a method, it is about people returning to Jesus. A method will not save, Jesus will. I thought the workers claimed that Jesus only was their message - now I am hearing that their message is a method and way of fellowship when Jesus said he was the way, not a method, not a fellowship.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 16:22:27 GMT -5
So, I guess you could say Jesus was denouncing his brethren in other denominations of the same religion.
Judaism and Christianity are not denominations of the same religion.
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