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Post by jphillips on Dec 12, 2008 7:43:58 GMT -5
Knowing a few from the Ole country, in the 60s, coming to the states in late '20s, they were quite proud of the faith origination in Ireland.
Is there still a brassy cockiness in the Irish populace, because the faith originated in their country.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 7:56:07 GMT -5
First of all you must realise that Ireland is currently two countries. It was this one country becoming two, or two being one, which made the two by two belief attractive. You see, in everything they did, they had to hear two opinions, in order to accept one, hence the ministry of two seemed so natural to them.
Two x two-ism didn't start in Ireland in the late 19th century. It started way back about the AD600's with St. Columba who sent missionaries 2x2 to Scotland and further afield, to Christianize the natives. TheY settled on the west coast island of Iona which they made their spiritual home from which they launched forth to go-preach on an itinerant, 2x2 method, going wherever the spirit led them.
It is a known fact that about the early 1890's William Irvine visited Columba's humble 7th century cell on Iona, a mere hovel fashioned out of unmortared rocks, and was so impressed with the accounts of Columba's itinerant, lowly life and ministry that he decided that he was going to become a latter day pupil of this missionary. The influence that Columba had upon this man's life is indeed amazing.
I heard someone say the other day that William Irvine started this way about 100 years ago. What poppy-cock !
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Post by september on Dec 12, 2008 9:34:25 GMT -5
First of all you must realise that Ireland is currently two countries. It was this one country becoming two, or two being one, which made the two by two belief attractive. You see, in everything they did, they had to hear two opinions, in order to accept one, hence the ministry of two seemed so natural to them. Two x two-ism didn't start in Ireland in the late 19th century. It started way back about the AD600's with St. Columba who sent missionaries 2x2 to Scotland and further afield, to Christianize the natives. TheY settled on the west coast island of Iona which they made their spiritual home from which they launched forth to go-preach on an itinerant, 2x2 method, going wherever the spirit led them. It is a known fact that about the early 1890's William Irvine visited Columba's humble 7th century cell on Iona, a mere hovel fashioned out of unmortared rocks, and was so impressed with the accounts of Columba's itinerant, lowly life and ministry that he decided that he was going to become a latter day pupil of this missionary. The influence that Columba had upon this man's life is indeed amazing. I heard someone say the other day that William Irvine started this way about 100 years ago. What poppy-cock ! You've got it wrong ram. St. Patrick brought 2x2-ism to Ireland in 433 and although it almost died out, William Irvine's sister came across the one remaining 2x2 believer in 1896 in Italy (the old man had moved there with an Irish priest to serve as an altar boy as his mother was a devout Roman Catholic. He himself didn't have any belief in the Catholic church) and told WI what she had found and learned. In 1897, WI hot-footed it to Ireland when he heard the old boy had retired to Trim in Co. Meath and WI wanted to discuss doctrine with him. In time, the old boy died but WI had inherited the mantle of God's chosen one and the rest as they say, is history.
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Post by lin on Dec 12, 2008 9:34:36 GMT -5
Knowing a few from the Ole country, in the 60s, coming to the states in late '20s, they were quite proud of the faith origination in Ireland. Is there still a brassy cockiness in the Irish populace, because the faith originated in their country. Are you sure? I thought the faith origin was the best kept secret since sliced bread.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 12, 2008 9:39:14 GMT -5
The more this history stuff comes out the more comlicated it seems to get.
But there's no "poppycock" involved. There are few poppies in Scotland or Ireland (thats Flanders where they abound), but there are Shamrocks. The confusion between these is understandable. Some people think that "poppycock" means something false, a sham, not real etc. And "-cock" was a mispronounced "rock". Hence poppycock was really Shamrock.
Now about Iona. That certainly is the island of the history of the twos movement. When I was last there, last summer, I took my usual detour to see the grave of that most famous of the movements adherants John Smith. (Not John Doe as some Americans think). The best Prime minister we never had, some called him.
Columba's humble grotto though is perhaps outstripped in humility and comfort by that to be found on the even more remote island of Eileen Mohr. (The same island on which 20 sheep were found dead in 1998. These were found to be owned by a former provost of Cumbernauld and a veteran SNP councillor, who was threatened with prosecution unless he removed the remaining animals). The grotto there, now maintained in poor condition by Scottish Natural heritage (who look after many of the early 2x2 and conventicklers histerical monuments), is so small it is hard to see how a pair of workers could squeeze in there, let alone hold gospel meetings.
The matter of twoism in Ireland and Scotland is of great historical interest, and has been studied at length, arms length mostly. Some even say insufficient length actually. The tradition moved back and forth between the two countries (which as RAM points out one of them is actually two countries itself). This back and forth got cemented so firmly that a body of water was named after it. The Firth of Forth, now sees an endless stream of traffic crossing back and Forth the Forth, even on the Fourth. The original method pioneered by Irvine, of crossing back and forth on the fourth, was actually the fifth method, but few know that fact. Today, of course the much painted bridge shows how much change comes about in this unchangeable way.
The two countries in Ireland, and two sets of ideologies, even language make it difficult for the first time visitor. Take town names: Is it Londonderry, or is it Derry. Depends who you ask, (and be careful in asking won't you), you cold get variable answers. This made it really hard for those early workers. Waht do you put on the invitation cards printed to invite people to those meetings that were held even before the printing press was invented? Put the wrong town name and people might even consider getting the ferry to London town, missing Derry out completely.
Now the chest pounding of the Irish was a real problem. Some flet it was really chest punting, others that TB had a lot to answer for. Hospitals all through the middle ages were inundated with men coming in with pounded chests that had been impounded in some cases by the local gardia in others by the RUC. When the punt was replaced by the Euro, people were unsure what to call this activity. Euro-pounding? Chest Euroing? Eurochesting? Chesteuroing? Many variations were attempted, but the locals couldn't pronounce most of them. The Canny Scots could see this problem from the other side of the Forth (more recently moved to the east coast so that Westminster couldn't find it to tax it). So they rejected the Euro and remained with Chest pounding. Afterall, their chests were where they put most of their valuables, so why not their pounds too? Scots women of course, after the discovery of silicone, found that chest work was sometimes a bit artificial, and not all it was pumped up to be.
So today, those Chest Euroing Irish countries across the forth, are re-considering the Euro and their part in it. Some deny that Irvine was responsible for all this nonsense, but those who study history know better!
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Post by emy on Dec 12, 2008 12:34:17 GMT -5
You guys are a hoot, but will you please post disclaimers to avoid distribution of corrupted history by the unsuspecting? Now about the chest-pounding Irish... didn't exist in my half Irish family, but then they found the fellowship when they heard a Scot and Englishman preaching here in the USA. Although there are family rumors that my grandmother did hear in southern Ireland early in the 1900's - just never joined any others in fellowship. I'd love to know more of that story!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 13:18:18 GMT -5
September, St. Patrick may have brought 2x2ism to Ireland in AD 433, but where did he get it from ? Geoff is right to mention the Firth of Forth. I draw your attention to Cramond Village which now forms part of Edinburgh on the south banks of the Forth estuary.
Firstly, I will ask you the question "What did the Romans ever do for us ?" Well, apart from building roads, digging sewers, showing us how to wash properly (baths), social systems, etc, they actually brought 2x2ism to us. Pure unadulterated fact !
The Roman Senate often found themselves discussing 2x2ism, even before the time of Christ ! In fact this very thing led to the downfall of Julius Caesar.
The Roman Emperor was asked during his last meeting of the Senate, how the messengers should be sent out. Julius replied "tu et tu, Bruti" the correct translation of which means, "two and two, Brutus." Caesar's friend and relative Brutus thought he was being exiled from the Senate because he misunderstood the Emperor. He thought Caesar was saying "et tu, Bruti" which according to some interpretations means "and you to, Bruti."
Now Brutus's anger was aroused, coincidentally at the same time as the members of the Senate who thought they were being overlooked and as a result of this misunderstanding they had their knives out for poor old Juli !
Anyway, fast forward to the Emperor Constantine who became a Christian and who made Christianity the official Roman religion. Well in time the Roman legions invaded Brittania and marched as far north as the Firth of Forth (nearly opposite my house). They set up camp and established a major fort at the mouth of the River Almond which was called Caer Almond or Fort Almond. This was the main Roman base in Scotland. They built the Antonine wall not far from here across the width of the country to keep out the savage tribes.
Anyway, one Roman soldier called Maizenelius, a descendent of Cornelius the Centurion, had an open home in which he received the 2x2 messengers originally established by Julius Caesar. The conquering of Brittania by the Roman army allowed the gospel to enter and flourish throughout the land.
During the Christianising of the local savages, Patick was converted to the new faith. In time he went into the work and was sent over to Ireland to create a new field there. The country had no arable land at that time.
Anyway, all this and more is contained within, or rather on the outside of the Cramond Urns found under the silt of the River Almond, which had preserved them for all those centuries. I would urge all Scottish workers to pay rigid attention to the excavations and finds at Cramond. Forget Gallilee. Here is where our Scottish 2x2 origins started.
As I have said previously, the Garden of Eden was in Scotland. Our Capital city Edinburgh is merely a corruption of "Eden-burgh." It all began here. Adam was the first Scotsman. This is proved by the Scottish saying "We're a' Jock Tamsen's bairns, "meaning "John Thomson is the father of all." Adam was John Thomson.
With the conversion of Patrick the truth had gone full circle. It really is amazing how few people actually know their history.
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Post by Gene on Dec 12, 2008 16:37:18 GMT -5
I cannot believe that with all history you guys relate, you leave out the part about tail docking in the Alps. Do you not realize that is an integral part of ALL your accounts? Scandalous, say I.
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Post by irvinegrey on Dec 12, 2008 17:13:38 GMT -5
The more I read this thread the more convinced I am that we have a lot of budding fiction writers on this site! Here we have fact and fiction intermingled and what seems to be a competition as who can spin the best story, believeable or otherwise.
I think the best bit of advice so far comes from Emy who suggests posting disclaimers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 17:26:17 GMT -5
I think the best bit of advice so far comes from Emy who suggests posting disclaimers.
Irvinegrey, I agree with you. I hereby disclaim all posts that I have written (i.e. typed). My other posts are completely factual and true.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 13, 2008 3:22:50 GMT -5
I'd have thought that anyone knowing even a little of Scots or Irish history, or even geography would have seen the funny side of our ramblings, and be able to discern fact from fantasy. But perhaps I was wrong? RAM disclaims ALL posts he's written (typed), then says the others are true. What others are there than ALL?
My posts in this thread are all satirical. (thats a euphemism for sad!)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2008 9:02:29 GMT -5
Geoff, I made my statement tongue in cheek, meaning every post I've made.
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Post by melissa on Dec 13, 2008 10:06:21 GMT -5
Knowing a few from the Ole country, in the 60s, coming to the states in late '20s, they were quite proud of the faith origination in Ireland. Is there still a brassy cockiness in the Irish populace, because the faith originated in their country. Well, isn't that silly? Especially when they believe it originated in Galillee! But now we have the true celtic history so we all now at last KNOW where we stand. Thanks for all the entertainment! My head is spinning............did i really read all this? or......... was I with the faeries and leprachauns? ??
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Post by Geoff on Dec 13, 2008 11:25:32 GMT -5
Well, isn't that silly? Especially when they believe it originated in Galillee!
I'm not so sure that so many as you think believed this galilee stuff. I suspect a majority have always known the truth, and a minority told the fairy stories.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2008 11:41:16 GMT -5
Well, isn't that silly? Especially when they believe it originated in Galillee!I'm not so sure that so many as you think believed this galilee stuff. I suspect a majority have always known the truth, and a minority told the fairy stories. Geoff, the expanation is simple. It's all down to the Irish accent. Many heard the Workers for the first time on the "shores of Galway !" When these Irish converts eventually mingled with their English brethren at conventicle, the English professing people who were unfamiliar with "Galway," assumed they were saying "shores of Gallilee." Further complicating matters, was the ignorance of the English back in those days. Grab hold of some conventicle notes and you will see references to some of the Irish brethren who were believed to have incredible longevity. One such set of notes refers to an Irishman who the writer thought must be over 1800 years old. The same thing happened in Scotland with the "shores of Galloway." There's an explanation for everything.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 13, 2008 12:10:06 GMT -5
Indeed there does seem an explanation for everything RAM. I remember that family from Galloway, the Rinns. Theye were strange characters. People were always talking about the Rinns of Galloway, as if they were a permanent fixture there.
But what of those poor folk who went west on the Pilgrim ships? How did they get so mixed up with this Galliee, Galway, Galloway names? Was it the accents they encountered when they landed? Those American accents must have sure confusulated them, as many of them couldn't tell Galilee from Galway either. They came out with such stuff as "This way goes all the way back to Gallowaylee" Thats far too many ways for a start in the only way.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 14, 2008 10:09:35 GMT -5
You two are a hoot!! Thanks for letting us enjoyed your fun! Have you two ever met in person?
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Post by ilylo on Dec 14, 2008 12:04:24 GMT -5
I can just imagine nathan furiously pounding away on his keyboard working on his website so as to keep up with this thread. ;D
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Post by Geoff on Dec 14, 2008 12:05:32 GMT -5
Yes, Cherie, we've met before, but its far too long since we last met eh R ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 12:11:05 GMT -5
That's right Geoff. And the distance is more short !
We had a "meeting" in my house and we met a couple of times at Gartocharn Coventicle.
I'll go for a lawful conventicle anytime !
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Post by dgaab on Dec 14, 2008 15:30:30 GMT -5
Posted on VOT by Sharon Hargreaves, ex-Canada/Philippine Worker, and TMB member, under the topic of ‘How do the workers explain this?’ A portion of her post follows. www.veteransoftruth.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 The very fact that the Irish friends have always known the history and as my once companion Margaret Leslie (Irish) emphatically told us one day in a home where she and I were staying "THE TRUTH STARTED IN IRELAND YA KNOW!!!!"
I was very indignant to think that the Irish felt they were so special; that they had the audacity to seek credit for 'THE TRUTH' ----If my mind had not been so closed, and dedicated to my pride, I should have asked for an explanation and no doubt she would have been forthcoming!!!! How often we shut down such comments instead of finding out more...
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I believe actually - that present day workers are not panicking whatsoever when we jangle and wrangle over history-------what we need to be educating ourselves on is their false doctrine.....it is the false doctrine aspect that is the real issue that should concern us.
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Post by september on Dec 15, 2008 7:27:53 GMT -5
Posted on VOT by Sharon Hargreaves, ex-Canada/Philippine Worker, and TMB member, under the topic of ‘How do the workers explain this?’ A portion of her post follows. www.veteransoftruth.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 The very fact that the Irish friends have always known the history and as my once companion Margaret Leslie (Irish) emphatically told us one day in a home where she and I were staying "THE TRUTH STARTED IN IRELAND YA KNOW!!!!"
I was very indignant to think that the Irish felt they were so special; that they had the audacity to seek credit for 'THE TRUTH' ----If my mind had not been so closed, and dedicated to my pride, I should have asked for an explanation and no doubt she would have been forthcoming!!!! How often we shut down such comments instead of finding out more...
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I believe actually - that present day workers are not panicking whatsoever when we jangle and wrangle over history-------what we need to be educating ourselves on is their false doctrine.....it is the false doctrine aspect that is the real issue that should concern us.The older friends may have known but I know for a fact that there are a number today that do not know anything about the origins.
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Post by ex-teenager on Dec 16, 2008 14:29:14 GMT -5
Posted on VOT by Sharon Hargreaves, ex-Canada/Philippine Worker, and TMB member, under the topic of ‘How do the workers explain this?’ A portion of her post follows. www.veteransoftruth.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 The very fact that the Irish friends have always known the history and as my once companion Margaret Leslie (Irish) emphatically told us one day in a home where she and I were staying "THE TRUTH STARTED IN IRELAND YA KNOW!!!!"
I was very indignant to think that the Irish felt they were so special; that they had the audacity to seek credit for 'THE TRUTH' ----If my mind had not been so closed, and dedicated to my pride, I should have asked for an explanation and no doubt she would have been forthcoming!!!! How often we shut down such comments instead of finding out more...
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I believe actually - that present day workers are not panicking whatsoever when we jangle and wrangle over history-------what we need to be educating ourselves on is their false doctrine.....it is the false doctrine aspect that is the real issue that should concern us.The older friends may have known but I know for a fact that there are a number today that do not know anything about the origins. Its hard to know, who knows what. Most in the Fermanagh area would know. What about south? I think there is quick a mix in the younger folk, some know, some dont - most don't seem all that interested?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -5
I think there is quick a mix in the younger folk, some know, some dont - most don't seem all that interested? Is it the ones that know that don't seem all that interested .... or those that don't know?
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Post by september on Dec 17, 2008 6:07:00 GMT -5
I think there is quick a mix in the younger folk, some know, some dont - most don't seem all that interested? Is it the ones that know that don't seem all that interested .... or those that don't know? I'd guess it's the ones that know aren't interested. One person in the South, whom I would have thought wasn't a particularly deep thinker, was fairly traumatised after learning of the origins and almost left the meetings. One young person in the North did leave after learning of the origins. T4N, perhaps you might be right about the Fermanagh friends but I'd imagine in reality nobody talks of it much, whether inside or outside of the fellowship and obviously, this disinterest helps perpetuate the myth.
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