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Post by lin on Jan 4, 2009 12:42:20 GMT -5
Since there were only workers at first...no fellowship meetings
If this is true where did the workers come from? Are you saying all workers were from faith Mission? The way I understood him, was they were fellowship meetings. Another question I have is did you ever talk to George or any of the early workers who were witnesses of what happened. what about John Kelly where did he fit into the picture?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 12:47:56 GMT -5
Apparently the meetings in the home were originally styled on the Faith Mission's "Prayer Union Meetings," which Irvine and others would have been familiar with. Perhaps GW went to something similar?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 16:41:24 GMT -5
Since there were only workers at first...no fellowship meetings If this is true where did the workers come from? Are you saying all workers were from faith Mission? The way I understood him, was they were fellowship meetings. Another question I have is did you ever talk to George or any of the early workers who were witnesses of what happened. what about John Kelly where did he fit into the picture? The info you're asking about is in the Secret Sect and also in my book--re history re first meetings being set up, first re-baptisms being required, etc. You could also learn about this from G. Pattisons account and John Long's Journal, both are on TTT under the Publication menu button on the Home page. Chapter 6 of my book in particular covers some of your questions. www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/index.phpI'd like to know about John Kelly also. I've already told you what I know about John Kelly. If you are able to track him down--please let me know what you find out. I would suggest starting your research in Ireland.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 16:46:30 GMT -5
From Chapter 6 of WmI Book: 1902: THE FIRST 5-6 years, from 1897 through 1902, Irvine's group consisted of (1) converts who became recruiters, called "workers" or "servants" and (2) converts who did not become workers, called "saints". Ed Cooney indicated that the group consisted of two classes with a reference to "fellow workers and saints." "...please note that I am not a Cooneyite, but a Christian. Those in fellowship with me as fellow workers and saints are not Cooneyites, but Christians." (Fermanagh Times, April 18, 1907) "He (Ed Cooney) also referred to their sect as God's saints and servants." (Impartial Reporter, July 18, 1907). "The 'tramp preachers' to the number of 600 have continued in conference for this past week at Crocknacrieve. Of this 600 there are about 300 workers, the other 300 being 'saints' and 'bishops'". (Impartial Reporter, July 25, 1907) It is sometimes stated that in the beginning ALL converts were workers, and there were no laymen or saints. However, the Author does not find any primary documentation showing this to be true. John Long gives the reason that meetings were set up in 1902 was to shepherd the young converts, so it would seem there were converts all along who did not become workers. G. Pattison gives names of many who were followers and yet were not listed on the 1905 Workers List. Goodhand Pattison and wife, as well as John and Sara West (owners of Crocknacrieve, the site of large scale conventions starting in 1904) were not workers. In addition, there were those who were too old to be workers (parents and grandparents, etc.) and some who were too young, such as Fannie Carroll. who was 14 when she professed. In the Author's opinion, there does not appear to be any basis for the statement that in the beginning, all converts became workers, and that there were no saints. During this period (the FIRST 5-6 years, from 1897 through 1902) neither workers nor saints attended church meetings in homes, since home meetings were not set up until sometime around 1902. According to Ed Cooney, up until that time the first workers and saints continued worshipping in the denominations where they were members. "After that, a number of us who had been through the same experience, met in a room from time to time, to encourage one another to follow Jesus, still attending the same denominations we belonged to. At this time we believed that all who were born anew including ourselves, in the denominations, were children of God, needing to become continuing disciples..." (Letter to Alice Flett). In the Early Days, the workers were chiefly evangelists or revivalist. They were not a church. They had not YET established churches in the homes. They did not baptize or marry others. Their mission was to bring souls to Christ. Period. "We had only one commission and that was to make disciples as we had been made; and we had only one authority, viz., if the Lord was with us, we would so live and speak that He would use us in getting people saved. And as they listened to us they would recognize the voice of Him because of the anointing. That was the simple outline in the days of our beginning. " (1931 Letter to Wilson McClung by Alfred Magowan) IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND that the workers and their converts (1) continued to worship in the church they were members of or had been attending; or (2) chose an assembly of believers to worship with or (3) did not regularly attend a church. In other words, their recruits worshipped at the church of their choice, at their discretion. In fact, it was stated by the Impartial Reporter that Wm. Irvine gave up his connection with Faith Mission in part because "Irvine’s converts always lapsed and were lost among the clergy by going back to their own congregation or what is known as the churches." (August 25, 1910) This was their method for 5-6 years after the group's inception in 1897. The Go-Preachers were not a church or a sect--YET. During the time period (1897 - 1903), evangelists and preachers of other denominations were looked upon as fellow labourers in Christ. It was not uncommon for the workers to invite other preachers to speak in their meetings. Many times in John Long's Journal, he lists the outside preachers who spoke at their special meetings. Also, some of the workers attended the Keswick Conventions in England, where there were preachers from numerous denominations. This means that at that time, other Pastors or Preachers, Christians and Churches were considered okay; they were accepted as fellow Christians. Following are quotes that show their viewpoint at that time. John Long wrote: "As long as the work kept from exclusiveness, and remained unsectarian in manifestation, it was wonderfully used of God in the salvation of sinners and the making of disciples. At that time the workers occasionally went to the various churches and at times preached in them whenever the way opened up. That helped to disarm prejudice, and get at the unconverted to win them for Christ, leaving them to the option of their own will as to where they worship and get the most spiritual food." (John Long's Journal, June, 1898) The workers didn't baptize or set up meetings in homes where their converts took communion. Their converts selected the Protestant churches they attended. Up until 1903, if the convert had not been baptized previously, most likely they were baptized at the church of their choice. Up until July, 1905, according to John Long, the Go Preachers believed that "The Salvation of the Soul is by grace through faith to everyone that repents and believes in Christ Jesus; and the experience, testimony and fruits of many clergymen bear witness to the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ. Up to that time they all believed that;" (John Long's Journal, July, 1905) According to Ed Cooney, the first workers continued worshipping in the denominations where they were members. "After that, a number of us who had been through the same experience, met in a room from time to time, to encourage one another to follow Jesus, still attending the same denominations we belonged to. At this time we believed that all who were born anew including ourselves, in the denominations, were children of God, needing to become continuing disciples...I was born anew in the city of Armagh, Ireland, some time during 1884." (Letter to Alice Flett). THERE WAS NO SEPARATION: So it seems they didn't baptize or set up meetings or break bread in homes. Their converts attended the Protestant church they selected and preferred. If the convert had not been baptized previously, it is likely that they were baptized by their church of their choice. Without knowing the background of the first 5-6 years given above, it is possible to read Goodhand Pattison's Account of the Early Days and conclude that it sure took him a long time to "come around." From the first time Pattison sat in Wm. Irvine's mission in Cloughjordan to the time he actually left the Methodist church and started going to only to meetings was 5-6 years. During this time, he continued teaching Sunday school, continued as a Methodist elder and a part-time preacher. This was how things were done in the Go-Preacher Movement during the first 5-6 years. There was NO SEPARATION from other denominations. G. Pattison wrote: "And I think I may truly say that while a process of "drawing out" on my part, together with a "squeezing out" on their part [Methodist church] was, more or less, in operation during these 5 or 6 years or more, it was not until I had completely shut off supplies in cash that they completely shut me out from taking part in their services (exercises), which was a kind of relief all round…" The "5-6 years" refers to the period that began when Pattison first came in contact with William Irvine in 1897 and continued until he made a complete break with Methodism which was in mid-1903, the year he attended his first convention at Portadown. The workers also believed each of their own original salvation experiences were valid and had saving power. Ed Cooney is reported in the June 2, 1904 Impartial Reporter as saying that: "he was glad to say he had been married to Jesus Christ twenty years ago, and had not been divorced yet." (1904 minus 20 years = 1884 when Cooney was saved--well before he met Wm. Irvine.) John West, owner of Crocknacrieve conventions grounds near Enniskillen believed he was saved before he met the Go-Preachers: "Mr. John West, Crocknacrieve, delighted in being able to give a personal testimony as to how he had been ‘saved’ ten years ago." [Editors Note: this would have been in 1894, before the Go-Preachers began. He was 'saved" outside of their instrumentality, and he spoke openly about it. They had not yet decided they were God's ONLY Way.] "He was, he said, bound to the Devil and was anxious about all this world’s way. He found he was wrong. He did not know where he would be on the day he would be called to eternity. He thought for himself and found that so long as he sought after the things of this World he had no hope for eternal life. It was not man who had brought him to Christ; it was his own thinking—thinking that he was wrong—thinking that he had no hope for salvation unless he joined Christ, which he had done ten years ago, and now could look to him as his Lord and Master." (Impartial Reporter October 20, 1904) An exworker wrote TTT: "It's pretty common knowledge that George Walker's first contact with any of our fellowship was with Willie Gill, who was already professing at the time he met George, but didn't go out to preach until a year or two after George did. I've personally heard George tell that story of his first acquaintance with Willie Gill that made him question his Methodist ministry. (Although George always insisted--and those who knew him well have emphasized it in workers meetings where I've been--that he had the new beginnings of new life while still preaching for the Methodist, before ever meeting friends and workers. Charles Steffen especially spoke this frequently, trying to combat Living Witness Doctrine and the tendency toward exclusivist judgments.)" 1902: SEPARATION FROM OTHERS BEGINS: As time marched on and as the need arose, William Irvine and his workers developed their teachings (doctrine), their format and their traditions. Their methods and beliefs evolved--they were NOT "the same yesterday, today and forever." Ed Cooney appropriately called it "groping their way." Wm Irvine did not receive from God a complete set of plans all at one time to put together or assemble the 2x2 method. It wasn't like the time God gave Moses the exact plans for building the tabernacle; or David to build the temple; or Noah to build the ark. Rather, Irvine's method changed, was remodeled and evolved as time went on. It was a process. Their methods evolved...their belief system didn't come into existence with a single bolt of revelation. The Go-Preachers re-evaluated their methods and made some changes. These changes were duly noted in the Impartial Reporter. "They have changed from their methods two years ago...There is another change. Mr. Cooney was at one time of the opinion that a man should give all that he possessed to the poor. The logical outcome of that argument would be that there would in that case be no one to support the Tramps; and whatever caused the change of opinion, that doctrine is not now preached. There is more light on it, though the Scriptures remain the same as two years ago." (Impartial Reporter, October 13, 1904) 1902: THE FIRST BAPTISMS: Up until this time, "They did not teach the ordinances of Believer's Baptism, and the Lord's supper. The cause of this was they maintained their mission to be unsectarian..." (John Long's Journal, Sept, 1899) But this changed... Continued at: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 17:01:07 GMT -5
si wells wrote:
I thought perhaps you were referring to the Account Dr. J referenced in his book by Alfred Trotter in Footnote 219. See below. When I requested a copy of this account that Dr. J builds most of his case on--I discovered he didn't even have a copy of it, and was referring to from memory and from reading it one night numerous years ago. IMO, that is not scholarly reliable information. I dont put much stock in that type reporting--I believe he should at have a copy of the Trotter document he is referring to in his hard copy book; or be able to tell where it is located.
Also, Dr. J incorrectly references the Pattison account as being by John Pattison - when it is by Goodhand Pattison. This type reporting from someone of his educat6ionand background in history really causes me to question what he writes...he doesnt adequately support his statements with reference material.
For instance, Dr. J. mentions an important catalyst involving John Morrison who was reportedly with John Long; yet John Morrison is not mentioned anywhere in John Long's Journal or Pattison's account. Who is this John Morrison??What happened to him?
From Pages 521-2 Faith and Hope: Revivals and Survivals by Dr. J Important input came also from the Methodists that sent out colporteurs who, in addition to distributing scriptures and religious publications, did some evangelistic preaching. From the Methodists, John Long launched an independent itinerant ministry and was soon joined by Tom Turner, Tom McNaught, Richard Norman and Alex Given. William Irvine, who was the Faith Mission superintendent in southern Ireland, and his companion John Kelly, had also begun to work somewhat independently. John Long and John Morrison first met William Irvine in Kilrush in March 1897, and later they invited him to preach with them but he was neither their leader nor the chief evangelizer in the southern counties at this time. It was John Long who convinced Irvine that clerical stipends and salaries were inconsistent with preaching "by faith." (Footnote 219)
In August 1897 there was a revival in Nenagh which spread to Rathmolyon, Birr, Roscrea and Cloughjordan. The Gill, Carroll, Hughes and Hastings families were prominent among the converts. In November 1897 there was a second revival at the Presbyterian church in Nenagh. George Walker came from Dublin to investigate and after spending some time with William Gill at Ashmont became convinced the work was of God. Similarily John West and others from Fermanagh came to hear the preachers at Rathmolyn. It was probably here, in November 1897, that Edward Cooney also met William Irvine. The mission in Cloughjordan Methodist Church in November ended with an all-day conference attended by converts from Nenagh and Roscrea. There was a mystical element involved as the believers encountered God directly through some manifestation of God's grace, or revelation, rather than through the pursuit of knowledge about God and the scriptures as in the case of the Plymouth Brethren. --------------------------------------------------------------- Footnote 219 PA-1-12, Account by Alfred Trotter to Edith Trotter, 28 July 1976: "He [John Long] it was who fired the first shot in a campaign which was destined to re-echo around the world. And he was present on many momentous occasions, went out in the work and sacrificed much in the days of his youth." p.5.
Footnote 220 PA-11-7, Copy of letter from John Pattison, Cloughjordan, Ireland, to his son, John Pattison Jr., in South America, May [1925]. A couple versions of this letter are in circulation with the erroneous date 1935 and location as Bolivia. John Jr. would have been in Argentina in 1925; he is buried at Cochabamba in Bolivia.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 17:07:38 GMT -5
George told me this personally,that he went to meetings before he met workers. I guess there is no credibility in that if it's not your words Cherie? Actually, if your story had some strength to it, I would add it to the accounts about GW's conversion. I try to present all the credible views...and let the reader decide. But I cant do that just with you saying GW said this--without you having made certain of his meaning--
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Post by lin on Jan 4, 2009 17:24:27 GMT -5
I agree with that, as George was 98 + then, so even though he had an incredible memory who was there to dispute it. So if I understand correctly, you could more say John Long was the founder than William Irvine. Even then this is surely interesting,but not a proof of salvation or not salvation
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jan 4, 2009 18:00:38 GMT -5
This discussion shows that looking back at history is like looking in the small end of a funnel, the honest thing to do is remember that even though it seems small on the end your looking in - it is way bigger on the other end. The possibility of missing a lot of what's on the other end is real - especially if one couples psychogloucoma (mental tunnel vision) with the small end of the funnel. This is probably where statements like this come from; My wife teaches music to some families around here who have left denominational churches and have home meetings. I think they might be thinking the Bible talks about home meetings, I wonder if they realise home meetings were really invented by William Irvine.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 4, 2009 18:01:07 GMT -5
Charlie Gill must have been the son of the Gills whom George Walker first was in Sun. mtg. with and apparently it was out of town where George and a fellow Methodist preacher went to see them! The other man went back to town but GW stayed with the Gills that weekend and that's the experience you've recounted within Charlie's death sermon. GW did go back to town after Sun. but that is when he decided to walk this way for it surely was "God's Way"..... I think all that GW says within the funeral sermon Cherie has provided proves that God was moving upon men in those days to follow the teachings of the Bible more closely! Siwells, it looks like your story could be quite accurate except for the Sunday morning meeting part. GW doesn't account for a Sunday am mtg in his story with the (apparently) Gills. What GW recounts is this: So his mind about going out on "faith lines" was influenced in an evening conversation with this man. There is still a possibility that there was a Sunday am mtg involved, but GW's does not have anything about it. Most early accounts have the Sunday am mtgs first being established later than that. (2-3 years later?) I am reaccounting a story told by George Walker to another older brother worker that happens to be alive this very day...I'm going to reassess this info with perhaps what Dr. Jaenan has written for he also interviewed GW and other older workers before he wrote his book "Apostles' Doctrine".... It was told by George Walker himself how he came in contact with the truth before he professed...he was a lay preacher for the Methodist church. His pastor sent him and another man out to the Gills' to see if the rumor he'd heard was true that they'd taken up with an unknown religion as well as for GW and his fellow to "set them straight"...otherwords to get them to come back to the Methodist church of which George Walker was a lay minister. It is said that they visited on a Sat. and more then likely the other man returned home as he had family and other responsibilities but GW stayed the weekend with the Gills and was in the Sun. a.m. mtg. which apparently was in the Gills'home at that time. Later GW went back home and after he got home he decided that this that'd he witnessed was God's true way and purposed in his heart to walk there in it. GW's first exposure to the truth's fellowship was through the Gills' and apparently there was no workers there that day! When he professed and went immediately into the work is another time and date!
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Post by Sharon on Jan 4, 2009 18:05:48 GMT -5
George told me this personally,that he went to meetings before he met workers. I guess there is no credibility in that if it's not your words Cherie? My discussion with this older worker who'd heard George Walker's personal accounting was in fact about WHEN fellowship mtgs. were established and this older worker said that the fellowship mtgs. were established within probably less then the 2 yr. mark of when the "work" was started by WI, John Long, Jack Carroll, Ed Cooney, Willie Weir and others in 1897 and WERE definitely in process before George Walker knew anything about the truth's fellowship!
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Jan 4, 2009 18:07:45 GMT -5
If there were workers before William Irvine, why do some workers say it started in Ireland with Irvine, others provide a stump theory and still again, another group of workers say it started in the beginning. Seems like everyone needs to get on the same page.
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Post by lin on Jan 4, 2009 18:08:46 GMT -5
Thanks Siwell. I just don't feel like arguing the point, but have heard George tell the story over and over. He was a humble Godly man. I'm sure there was a work being done before William Irvine. William Irvine was a lightening rod for attention.
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Jan 4, 2009 18:10:11 GMT -5
Then again, lin, did you not suggest in a past post that some people don't really need to know the origins or something to that effect?
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Post by lin on Jan 4, 2009 18:15:57 GMT -5
No , I just don't believe it has much do with our salvation. We could know every detail,but not know God.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 4, 2009 18:15:59 GMT -5
Thanks Siwell. I just don't feel like arguing the point, but have heard George tell the story over and over. He was a humble Godly man. I'm sure there was a work being done before William Irvine. William Irvine was a lightening rod for attention. I think your remembrance of what GW told you falls pretty close to what this older worker has told to me! I'm not arguing here at all, but trying to set the fact that fellowship mtgs. in parts of the British Isles were very much in force long before the workers came to America and other countries!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 18:17:05 GMT -5
Siwells, it looks like your story could be quite accurate except for the Sunday morning meeting part. GW doesn't account for a Sunday am mtg in his story with the (apparently) Gills. What GW recounts is this: So his mind about going out on "faith lines" was influenced in an evening conversation with this man. There is still a possibility that there was a Sunday am mtg involved, but GW's does not have anything about it. Most early accounts have the Sunday am mtgs first being established later than that. (2-3 years later?) I am reaccounting a story told by George Walker to another older brother worker that happens to be alive this very day...I'm going to reassess this info with perhaps what Dr. Jaenan has written for he also interviewed GW and other older workers before he wrote his book "Apostles' Doctrine".... It was told by George Walker himself how he came in contact with the truth before he professed...he was a lay preacher for the Methodist church. His pastor sent him and another man out to the Gills' to see if the rumor he'd heard was true that they'd taken up with an unknown religion as well as for GW and his fellow to "set them straight"... otherwords to get them to come back to the Methodist church of which George Walker was a lay minister. It is said that they visited on a Sat. and more then likely the other man returned home as he had family and other responsibilities but GW stayed the weekend with the Gills and was in the Sun. a.m. mtg. which apparently was in the Gills'home at that time. Later GW went back home and after he got home he decided that this that'd he witnessed was God's true way and purposed in his heart to walk there in it. GW's first exposure to the truth's fellowship was through the Gills' and apparently there was no workers there that day! When he professed and went immediately into the work is another time and date! There are some things I notice in your account that don't add up. Mainly bcs the Gills, Carrolls, Hastings didn't belong to the Methodist church that GW was a part of. Some of them were even officers of the CHURCH OF IRELAND. That is not the same church as the Methodist church. I have visited their church; Willie Gill and other Gill family members are buried in the CofIre church yard; and I have copies of the church minutes re their resignations from their church roles.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 4, 2009 18:24:15 GMT -5
As there are family names and family names, I have NO information to assess the name "Gill" against one or the other! If you don't know more then one family of Brown's in your town, then it's possible there isn't more then one family of Brown's? Is that the way you look at it? Cherie, it is very possible the Gill family you speak of is not the "Gills" of which I speak, isn't it?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 18:42:57 GMT -5
As there are family names and family names, I have NO information to assess the name "Gill" against one or the other! If you don't know more then one family of Brown's in your town, then it's possible there isn't more then one family of Brown's? Is that the way you look at it? Cherie, it is very possible the Gill family you speak of is not the "Gills" of which I speak, isn't it? It's really really doubtful - maybe a 1/2% possibility? Rathmolyon is a very small village and the history of when the Gills et al pulled out of the Church of Ireland is still talked about even to this day. The Irish do not forget history. See Main Street in photo below. Here is the Church of Ireland in Rathmolyon Here I am putting the key in the door of the Church of Ireland where the Gills, Carrolls, Hastings, Winters, etc attended and pulled out of to become "White Mice." See below re White Mice. Yes, you would be considered one of the White Mice if you went there.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 18:45:50 GMT -5
RATHMOLYON IS DEVASTATED
WHITE MICE: Rathmolyon is a very small, sleepy, country village in County Meath about twenty five miles Northwest of the City of Dublin. In the past century, the religious and social climate has not changed for many residents whose ancestors were inhabitants there when Irvine's new religion commenced around 1900. This event had an enormous impact on the Church of Ireland in Rathmolyon.
When William Irvine came to Rathmolyon in 1897 and began to gather recruits, there was great concern among the Roman Catholic population in the area. This fear was founded in the belief that Irvine might attract many Catholics to his fellowship. Some parishioners approached the local parish priest at that time and asked him to address the matter to the congregation at Sunday Masses. This he did and dismissed the entire occurrence in words something similar to the following: "My dear people, don’t be the least concerned about this new sect which has formed in our parish. It will all fizzle out, and in a short while they will be as scarce as white mice." The words of the Catholic parish priest to his parishioners turned out to be partially true. There is no evidence of even one Catholic person having joined Irvine in Rathmolyon; however, as for fizzling out, he was quite wrong.
Since the new sect did not give themselves a name, from that day forward they have been known as “White Mice” in Rathmolyon parish. Naturally, they find the label offensive, and many residents of Rathmolyon are unaware of the origin of the term, "White Mice."
The Church of Ireland community in Rathmolyon suffered immeasurable loss when Wm Irvine came to their village. In just three weeks time, (October 10 through 31, 1897), Irvine successfully recruited some "...of nearly all the best type of character in the place, including the Gills, Carrolls, Hastings, Winters and others..." (Accounts of the Early Days by G. Pattison). It couldn’t have been said any better. Irvine actually sapped the life blood out of the Church of Ireland and effectively split the church in two. There were those who stayed in the Church of Ireland and the 40 who left and followed Irvine's teachings.
The young people mentioned (Gills, Carrolls, Hastings, Winters) were actively involved with the Church of Ireland. They held positions of esteem, such as vestrymen, secretary, treasurer, church warden, etc. They all lived within a short distance of each other, attended church socials together and were all members of upstanding well to do Church of Ireland families. Their active participation in church affairs at such early ages bode well for the future of the Church of Ireland in Rathmolyon. All that changed when Irvine succeeded in encouraging them to forsake the church of their birth and throw in their lot with him.
Their leaving was viewed as a MAJOR DISASTER in the Church of Ireland community. It appears that Mr. & Mrs. Garrett Gill and 8 of their children and the Carroll (6 children) family became “White Mice.” Although the Hastings lost three children to the “White Mice,” the remainder of the family continued in the Church of Ireland. The legacy of this event lives on, and to this day the Church of Ireland community in Rathmolyon resents the “White Mice.”
At the time of the "White Mice" exodus, Reverend Fred W. Weatherell was the rector of the St. Michael and All Angels Church of Ireland in Rathmolyon, which was established in 1797. He was appointed as Rector of Rathmolyon on May 8, 1872, and died February 11, 1903, still the rector. Not only was he rector when Irvine came, but he and his daughter attended some of Irvine's first meetings in Rathmolyon. He would have baptised Tom, Warren and Margaret (Maggie) Hastings and Jennie Gill, as he was rector at the times of their births.
Hazel Hughes wrote about a visit she and her brother Garrett Hughes made to Rathmolyon: "... we visited the old Episcopal Church [Footnote #7] where our Mother used to play the organ. We looked at the graves, and I noticed one grave was especially cared for; most of the graves were just in a weed patch. But this one grave was at the front of the church and very well cared for. So I went and looked at it, and it had a headstone with the name "Reverend Wetherell" on it...Our Mother used to talk about Reverend Wetherell. He was the preacher when she taught Sunday School. Our cousin, Herbert Gill, and his wife were with me. They said that when these 40 people professed that the presiding elder had scolded Reverend Wetherell for letting those people go. For letting them go out of the church, that he should have kept them in. But Reverend Wetherell had said, 'If people find something better, can you blame them for not drinking out of a stagnant pool?' The preacher himself had called his church a stagnant pool." [Hazel Hughes Account, 1971]
When Irvine’s early recruits left the Church of Ireland, their loss was grievously felt. So much so that the church suppressed all records of their membership, and in most cases even restricted the very mention of any of their names! This is in evidence in one of the Vestry minutes documents where vestry members are meeting to elect individuals to replace the vacancies created by Willie Gill and his brother Philip Henry Gill ("Harry") when they became "White Mice." Significantly, the bitterness felt on their departure was evident as their names were not mentioned and the election for their replacements were minuted as the “first vacancy” and the “second vacancy.” The normal practice at these meetings was and still is, if any member has to resign for any reason, personal or otherwise, those present stand in tribute, some suitable words are spoken and an entry is recorded in the minutes regarding their departure and in praise of their service to the church. Since 1905, no member of the Gill family has been associated with the Church of Ireland in Rathmolyon, except for Garrett Gill (Jr.).
The following meaning of the word "vestry" in the context in which it is used by the Church of Ireland is taken 'verbatim' from their website.
"The vestry is an assembly of parishioners which meet to discuss parochial business and takes its name from its meeting place - the vestry or room in the church in which the parson's/vicar's vestments are kept. The vestry can raise funds for local services such as poor relief, church socials etc. etc."
There are a number of different vestry groups. General vestry which can include a large group of parishioners. From within the general vestry a smaller group, known as the select vestry, is selected. This smaller group are normally responsible for the maintenance of the church, the payment of parish officers such as sexton and parish clerk. Many of the functions and powers once performed by the various vestries have now been abolished because of State Legislation and as a result of the diminished status of the Church of Ireland since the Irish Republic obtained freedom from British rule. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, in or about the time when the Gills, Hastings and Carrolls were members, and when the entire island of Ireland was ruled by Britain, the vestry was a very powerful body in any parish. They could provide 'recruits' for the British army, could levy taxes even on the Catholic population, were responsible for the appointment of local police and for road repairs.
In Rathmolyon, when a member of the “White Mice” community dies, they are buried “in their ancestral burial ground,” which is the Church of Ireland cemetery. The Church of Ireland reluctantly allows the burial to take place, even though the "White Mice" refuse to register their relative's death and burial in the parish records of the Church of Ireland. This causes and keeps resentment alive. It also makes the situation difficult for people trying to trace historical records.
Having been allowed to bury their dead, the “White Mice”quite often erect memorial stones in their honour, without permission and beyond the recommended size in height. These memorial stones are a constant reminder of a bitter past, as the Church of Ireland community are forced to view these memorial stones whenever they visit their own relatives’ graves and attend service in their church. The church is surrounded by the graves and markers. Why the "White Mice" would choose to be buried in the Church of Ireland Graveyard is an enigma to the Author.
Ownership of property is another source of irritation to the Church of Ireland community caused by the "White Mice." Many of the farms now in the ownership of “White Mice” are regarded as lands traditionally owned by Church of Ireland people. These farms were exclusively owned by Church of Ireland people at the time of Irvine’s coming, and on their conversion to Irvine's fellowship, accordingly became “White Mice” property, and have remained so ever since. In the greater Rathmolyon region, the “White Mice” own a large acreage of land; mainly by the families of Hughes, Chambers, Buttimer, Hendy, Clarke and Jackson. Since the White Mice usually inter-marry, this prevents any of the properties from coming on the market for sale. It also prevents prospective Church of Ireland purchasers from buying and returning the property to what they believe is its traditional place in history. (Information provided by residents of County Meath)
THE GILL FAMILY: Willie Gill's Father, Garrett Gill (Sr.) married Ann Piggott around 1860-61. They had nine children. William John (Willie) was the second child, the eldest son, and was born June 12, 1863. All nine Gill children were baptised in the Church of Ireland, Rathmolyon, according to church records.
1. Susan Jane; born February 14, 1862 2. William John (Willie); born June 12, 1863; Died June1951 aged 88. Buried in Churchyard in West Hanney, Oxfordshire, England 3. Mary Ann; born October 5, 1864- married Fred Hughes 4. Garrett (Junior); born February 19, 1866 5. Sarah Ellinor; born December 25, 1867 6. Philip Henry (Harry); born October 11, 1869; Died 12th February 1961; married Lilian Brown 7. Emma Emily; born October 9, 1871; Died 1945 aged 74. Buried in Churchyard at West Hanney, Oxfordshire, England. 8. Paul Fawcett; born 23rd April 1874; baptised 7th June 1874; died 3/20/59 9. Janet Goodwin (Jennie); born February 24, 1876; Died 1939 aged 63. Buried at Bletchley near Milton Keynes (low midlands of England)
Willie, Emma and Jennie went in the work around 1900. The parents and eight of the nine children and spouses were converted by Wm Irvine and his workers to the Go-Preacher's group. Garrett Gill (Jr.) remained in the Church of Ireland, left Rathmolyon to live in Dublin, where he practised as a Barrister.
It is not known how much property Garrett Gill had when he married Ann Pigott. However, in 1860/61, Ann's brother, William John Pigott, transferred a large amount of his property to Garrett Gill. Included in the property transferred to Garrett Gill was the farm surrounding 'Ashmount' The house itself was not there in 1862—it was not built until 1871-72; about three houses in the village of Rathmolyon; and 40 additional acres on the Trim/Rathmolyon road.
"ASHMOUNT" (address) Kill, Rathmolyon, Enfield, Co Meath, Ireland.
Around 1872, Garrett Gill (Sr.) built a family home named "Ashmount." It's obvious why the home was called "Ashmount." (See Photo in TTT Photo Gallery) There are lots of ash trees surrounding it, and it is located on a hill or mount. Prior to that Garrett Gill and his family lived in one of the houses they owned in Rathmolyon. Paul and Jennie were born at Ashmount, and possibly Emma. Willie, the eldest son, lived at Ashmount for the majority of his teenage and young adult years, and helped his father farm the land.
In 1895, Garrett Gill (Sr.) bought a farm and home from John Fox, Dalystown, Castlerickard, located approximately 6 miles from Rathmolyon. The family moved there, including Willie, except for Philip Henry (Harry) and his wife Lilian, who remained at Ashmount. In 1897, Willie's father signed over Ashmount to Willie. When Willie went into the work, he sold Ashmount to his brother, Philip Henry (Harry) Gill, as well as the additional 40-acres. (TTT has documentary evidence from the National Land Registry).
TRAIL OF ASHMOUNT: In 1862, Willie John Pigott transferred to Garrett Gill the land where Ashmount would be built later; and and 3 houses in Rathmolyon In 1872, Garrett Gill built the home called "Ashmount" In 1897, signed over to eldest son: Willie John Gill In 1903, sold to brother, Philip Henry (Harry) Gill (died February 12, 1961) In 1961, inherited by son, Herbert Norman Gill (no children) (died March 14, 1985) In 1985, inherited by nephew, John Swanton (current owner)
1899-1900 & 1903 RATHMOLYON CONVENTIONS: All indications and hearsay suggest that the 1903 Rathmolyon Conventions took place on land located beside the home Ashmount. There are a number of reasons why this is the most likely location. As distinct from Willie's other smaller farm of 40 acres which was rather remote and had no dwelling house, the field at Ashmount was close to the house and would have provided cooking, washing and toilet facilities and because it was two miles distance from Rathmolyon village it would have been private and unlikely to have been trespassed by unwanted persons.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 18:46:26 GMT -5
And yes, Dietcoke - you can say, "Cool, I'm one of the White Mice!"
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Post by Sharon on Jan 4, 2009 19:01:50 GMT -5
It is my understanding that the "Gills" that GW went to see with his fellow Methodist, was not in a TOWN! It was apparently very rural!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 4, 2009 19:40:31 GMT -5
It is my understanding that the "Gills" that GW went to see with his fellow Methodist, was not in a TOWN! It was apparently very rural! Gill's homeplace, Ashmount, IS out of the VILLAGE (not a TOWN) of Rathmolyon. They had a 3-week convention on it. Sammie Hughes and his sister Deborah Hughes (former sister worker) both live in Rathmolyon, as well as some other White Mice...you could contact them for particulars you want to know. Willie, Emma and Jennie Gill's sister Mary Ann Gill married Fred Hughes a year before they moved from Ireland to N Dakota. She is the mother of the American workers Garrett Hughes and Hazel Hughes. Sammie gives tours of Ashmount (Gill homeplace that Willie gave up) to interested persons, often visiting workers from America. Sammie doesnt live there--he gets permission from the current owner.
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H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
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Post by H.A.S. on Jan 5, 2009 11:05:16 GMT -5
~~~ HAS as fs spirit has pointed out from your different posts you're a little confused when you were a 2x2 and as an ex-2x2 also. Try to concentrate and improve your relationship with God my friend and don't worry too much about the 2x2s. There are 21 reasons I can't stop thinking about the 2x2's. As I concentrate on God, he keeps reminding me of those reasons I must never forget the 2x2's.
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H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
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Post by H.A.S. on Jan 5, 2009 11:08:35 GMT -5
Here is another one for all of you that oppose truth! Where in the hymns or in your testimonies and/ Have you or anyone, worshiped, glorified, or gave in the name of WM Irvine? in the name of WM Irvine? {sigh} You just don't get it... I hope someday you will.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 5, 2009 11:39:28 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you have a point, though grave it is for those who try to forget it! I was out of the truth for nearly 20 yrs. The raising that I got at the hands of my faithful Gram stayed with me...but I have learned in these past couple of years how true the Bible is when it says "Raise up the child in the way in which he should go and he will not forget it all the days of his life." This is God's Will and as hard as it is to swallow sometimes...it still is God's Will that children be brought up at the knees of their parents, grandparents and/or guardians to "fear God". That fear is a respect for the omnipotent power of God, His ability to resurrect those whom He desires and even those whom He may well not desire, but all to face the Judgment that is Jesus and only Jesus. Through this respect of God, we learn to love Him for we seek His favor through the blood of His only begotten Son and seek to prove our love by leading a Christ-like life. This makes us moral citizens whether we participate in the truth's fellowship or not....it is the Will of God that children learn of Him!
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H.A.S.
Senior Member
God loves us all. Yes, even you.
Posts: 705
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Post by H.A.S. on Jan 5, 2009 12:02:03 GMT -5
~~~ Can you tell us of anyone got SAVED through reading the scriptures by himself/herself in the New Testament? Perhaps you should read first Corinthians 3:5 where Paul writing to this church says: 'Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase'. So I'm sure you'd agree that it is not important who or how you hear of the Gospel. Be it 2X2, 4X4, or just by reading it in the bible; God will give the increase. Anyway, you asked for a name, so here are two: Charles Wesley and John Wesley. After you're done looking them up, you might want to talk to a Gideon about this topic. The Gideon’s will tell you how people in a hotel room or in a taxi or on holiday have just read God's word, and God's word has brought life. ~~ There is ONLY one True gospel of Christ not this and that gospel. We have discussed Luke 22 many times on here... Have we? I believe I've mentioned Luke 22 many times, but I don't think I've ever gotten an answer from you on it. Care to give it another try? Explain to us why WI took (and the workers still take) the commission from Matt 10 but ignored the commission in Luke 22?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 5, 2009 12:04:21 GMT -5
And yes, Dietcoke - you can say, "Cool, I'm one of the White Mice!" ;D gonna leave that title buried, tyvm. sounds like great fodder for "three blind mice" stories.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 5, 2009 12:07:27 GMT -5
And yes, Dietcoke - you can say, "Cool, I'm one of the White Mice!" ;D gonna leave that title buried, tyvm. sounds like great fodder for "three blind mice" stories. That's very funny, dc! However in regards to the history of the workers, somewhere along the way it was forgotten that they went 2X2 instead of by 3's. ;D
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