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Post by Sharon on Dec 24, 2008 11:44:08 GMT -5
NathanB! Thanks for the synopsis...but it seems you didn't finish it! Please do so! Thank you!
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Post by Sharon on Dec 24, 2008 11:55:27 GMT -5
I don't think the history should be some big secret, but if the workers start preaching William Irving and singing "Tell me the story of Willy" instead of "Tell me the Story of Jesus" then I'll find another group to fellowship with. peace, freespirit Well said freespirit. The history shouldn't have to be a big secret. But in some cases it is better off that way. I hate to keep repeating my wheat farm analogy because maybe it didn't make very much sense, but hopefully people can see, not only why they didn't bother to keep retelling that part of history, but why in the case that I gave (the new farm hand), that it was actually better that he didn't know. And I know everyone keeps saying, "why hide the truth", but in the case of the new farm hand, even telling him wouldn't have given him the truth because he would have misunderstood it, and therefore still not known the truth. If you aren't able to impart the truth to someone, it is no good telling them, especially when what they then believe is further from the truth. If this new farm hand's original belief is that the method written by Geezas, he has got it right. If though in telling the new farm hand about Billion Furlined bringing the method to them, he thinks that Billion was the founder of the method rather than just made a measly 32.518 metre walk, then this new farm hand has just been turned a long way from the truth. This is why you will hear me say that it is a bigger lie to say that William Irvine was the founder. And if left to most exes, who think that William's name should be put on every door into the place so no-one can come in without seeing it, everyone will definately be thinking that we are just serving man, so therefore the truth is still not known. People like freespirit will very rightly go and find another group to fellowship with. In another attempt to see this concept of not telling the truth, with an example that is more 'real'... A lot of people may have seen it happen where they sit in a classroom learning about something, and someone asks a question, and the lecturer responds with something like... "I am not going to answer that" or "I need you to learn something else before I explain that" or "We will get to that". Now, if you were of the ex-2x2 mindset you would be thinking, "hey, why are you not telling me this stuff... why can't you tell the truth when I ask these questions... why are you skirting around the issue... what is there to hide? The truth is that the lecturer wants you to learn something else first. He wants to teach you the first concept so that you will understand the second concept. And most of the time, once the lesson is over, the person is wondering why they even asked the quesion because it seems so clear. They realise it was a stupid question about something that didn't even matter. So back to the farm, once the new farm hands realised that there is an owner, and they find out the relationship between the owner and Geezas, and after getting to know the owner, they realize that he did have the power to give instruction to Billion, and also sack him when he didn't do what the instruction said, they then have no doubts that the most Billion did in bringing the instructions to them was make a measly 32.518 metre walk, which anybody could have done. Todd! This is a good analogy but kind of deep and lots of folks don't want to get into something that philosophical on this board...I've learned that by mistake also! However, I do appreciate the thought and as freespirit said, to discuss the "roots' of the fellowship at every mtg. so that any newcomer or oldcomer that doesn't know or remember the "roots" is NOT spiritually feeding them! I think whether the history is needed to be known should come directly from each member or participant of the mtgs., etc and on their own time...just much like we study about the history of our country on our own time, of course, unless we choose to take a history class. Seems the real complaint is that there is NO known written history of the truth's fellowship and that in itself is spiritual because as we read in later postings then yours...when Jesus returns there will be NO recognized denominations of religion! That's right for Jesus will be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Priests of priests, Servant of servants, Prince of Princes....all "faith" will be unto Him or there will be no life found even for the human body! Zech. 14 explains what happens to the non-believers in Christ, doesn't it? Thank you!
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Post by todd on Dec 25, 2008 22:18:18 GMT -5
The history shouldn't have to be a big secret. But in some cases it is better off that way.That was really all I got out of your wheat field post. Basically, you are saying that the history SHOULD be lied about, by a worker/friend/acquaintance/anyoneatall who decides who gets lied to and who gets told the truth. No I am not saying that at all. If you understood the wheat post you would have seen that. Maybe as Sharon says, I am probably getting too deep here, but what I was saying that if you can't explain the truth to someone because of their lack of faith, and if saying something is going to cause their belief to be further from the truth, you shouldn't be saying it. The very "truth" that people seem to be asking to be told (William being the founder) is far from the truth, so you don't have to wonder why that isn't told. I have repeatedly asked (not just on this forum) what it was that William founded, and nobody has been able to come up with an answer that justifies their requests that everyone is told that he is the founder. Well, that's fine, but you are going to have to recommend a suitable interval, and then get it put on the worker's calender, because I can bet that they are going to get so busy telling people about the Gospel of Jesus, and how God wants us to live, that it's not going to even cross their mind to tell people about some fella a long time ago that didn't do too much of note, other than his obedience to God. We should first establish what the honest answer is before we know whether the workers are giving an honest answer or not. When the workers are vague about William Irvine, it is probably the exact same vagueness I get when I ask people on these forums what William founded. If the people that have studied him don't even know, how do you expect the workers to know. Why do people have a problem using the correct meaning for words? That's what the workers are doing when they preach, so if you are going to understand them, you will need to start accepting the meaning of words rather than put your own meanings in there so that you can claim they are saying something different. No... everyone else is wanting to lie about history. No, I am just as (or more) susceptible to the deceit and temptations of Satan. That's not about to stop me participating on this forum though. I don't have any right. I would love to tell the truth to anybody that doesn't know it though. Yes, it certainly could cause people to turn away from God's people if they get deceived into thinking what people here would like them to think. No, I was well aware of the author of this hope that I have in salvation, and where the instruction for this way came from, long before I heard the name of any man. It's not my decision, but I would prefer that nobody gets lied to. But, just like asking a lecturer a question, sometime you need to get them to understand something else before than are really going to be able to comprehend the truth. I sure hope they hide people from the lies you are trying to promote about William Irvine being the founder of something. It's actually God's church. It just hope that I am good enough that God is able to say that I am one of his church. As far as what it is know for, that will be determined either by people who hold up signs claiming certain things, or by the banner of the name of God held in the heart and spirit of the people. Fortunately, there is a vast difference between the 2 messages. What makes you think that I can't tell people about it? I would really love to know what you are thinking by this little story. You are still treating this like religion, as you seem to always have. It is not about getting recruits. God just wants to deliver his message that people should live according to his will. If they stopped going to meetings because of something they were told, then they were obviously putting there faith in meetings and treating it like religion, and the deceit caused them to lose that faith. So yes I would say that it is accurate to say that they lost faith, not that they had faith in the right things to start with. That statement doesn't make sense, because the church is actually the people with a relationship with God. Those that think the church is the act of meeting, are putting their faith in the wrong things.
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Post by todd on Dec 25, 2008 22:34:29 GMT -5
Then you have the 'other dudes and dudettes.... They can't give a straight answer to anything. Take a look at our new guy Todd. BOY HOWDY he cant even agree on the terminology that everyone else uses whether they are professing or not!!! He's pretty funny, but his posts can't even be taken seriously, although he does give some of us good stuff to slam him (and by extension your church) about. He has quickly become a non contributor to serious discussion I think..... I'm happy to use the normal meaning of words. If you don't want to, Ill let you come up with a good reason for that. If you appreciate straight answers, how about you give me one regarding what W.I. was the founder of, because nobody else can. They say vague things like... he founded 2x2, or he founded a system. It really doesn't explain anything. I'm not trying to make you sound silly if you can't answer this, because nobody else can, but it wouldn't be too hard to admit that he really didn't do too much. Just like in the analogy I gave, those that the message was delivered to were already willing to do what was asked. God had clearly already prepared the hearts of those he was speaking to, and they were ready to accept his his message immediately, and do what was asked of them. I guess some lack the faith that God can work in the hearts of men, but what happened sure gives me that very familiar feeling with what happened when those fishermen immediately left their nets. It definately wasn't the work of man.
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 25, 2008 23:14:21 GMT -5
Todd, The more I read what you write, the more you crack me up!! you are a real hoot, and obviously are trying to either confuse yourself or you just don't have a clue... HA!!! We should first establish what the honest answer is before we know whether the workers are giving an honest answer or not. When the workers are vague about William Irvine, it is probably the exact same vagueness I get when I ask people on these forums what William founded. If the people that have studied him don't even know, how do you expect the workers to know.I communicate with several workers Todd, and I have discussed the William Irvine issue with them. One of the more senior ones told me that they were also lied to about the role of William Irvine in starting the truth fellowship, and he wished that he would have known the truth about it. It caused him to continue to tell others false information until he became aware of the truth. You keep asking what ol' Willie founded, and then when people tell you it gets ignored. You go back to the old 'the church was founded by Christ' and Willie was just a tool to keep it going or whatever. I personally could care less about Willie. The lies that I was told affected me though. When I found out about how workers had been telling lies about your church being the only one not started by man I was actually relieved! You can continue to try to put your little twist on everything, but it should be obvious to you that while there are some on the board that back you up, many of your fellow professing folks don't believe your take on the whole thing. But so what..... I'm sure you don't really care.... There are over 20 ex workers here on the TMB, and they pretty much will agree with the fact that the truth fellowship has been telling a lie about its history for a long time. There are also several active workers that read here, and some of them post here. They also agree that the ol' Willie issue needs to be dealt with. The workers that I correspond with agree that it was Willie and the boys that started up your fellowship, so I'll stick with what they are telling me rather than the stuff you are trying to come up with. None of them have come up with the wheat field story either!!!! They are telling people the truth about ol' Willie and the boys when asked about it, but are not preaching about it from the platform, although there have been some vague references to it over the years. I'm getting real kick out of your spin on things. I'm happy to use the normal meaning of words. If you don't want to, Ill let you come up with a good reason for that.Good. Than maybe you should start trying to. We pretty much all agree to use the meaning of the words as it applies to the truth fellowship here on the TMB. We all have been there and done that as far as going to meetings and saying all the words with the meanings that are understood in the fellowship. No need for you to try to start trying to change what everyone already knows and accepts as being normal usage of the words. Feel free to use whatever words you would like. If you appreciate straight answers, how about you give me one regarding what W.I. was the founder of, because nobody else can. They say vague things like... he founded 2x2, or he founded a system. It really doesn't explain anything.Willie and the boys established the church you attend. We all understand that 'church' is the people. we also understand that the Church is the body of Christ, and it doesn't matter what denomination you are a part of if you are a true Christian. Everyone that has read and heard about Willie and the boys know that they started up a new denomination, and then pretended not to take a name, even though they used a name. They have even registered a name in various places with various governments, and in one area they even incorporated for a while. It's all part of that history that you tend to want to pretend didn't happen. Anyhow, I hope you keep on contributing here Todd. You make the board interesting, and it is always good to have someone putting their own personal spin on things. You are funny!!!! Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 26, 2008 0:53:57 GMT -5
Todd, Here is a bit of the history of the church I go to. (I probably need to expalin the difference between Church-Body of Christ and church-where people meet...) The Christian and Missionary Alliance began as a deeper life and missionary movement initiated by Dr. Albert B. Simpson in 1887 to mobilize the underutilized lay forces and resources of the churches to "take the whole Bible to the whole world." He believed that a life completely yielded to Christ was one in which service to Christ would be of paramount importance. A person controlled by the Holy Spirit has no choice but to be involved in bringing the Good News to others, either as an overseas missionary or as a missionary at home.
The founder was reluctant to establish churches, preferring to call together Christians with a vision to evangelize the world but who remained in their local churches. However, the Christ-centered emphasis in teaching and the priority on missions made many people unwelcome in their denominations, causing them to form groups that for years were called "branches," not churches. By the mid-1970s, it became clear that The Alliance was a denomination in all but name, so with revised bylaws and constitution that reality was formalized in 1974. __You might see some similarities here to ol' Willie and the boys. This started 10 years before Willie and the boys started up the truth fellowship. You'll notice we freely call Albert the 'founder', even though the church is based on the bible and began on the shores of Galilee as all Christian denominations (with or without a name) can claim. You can see that the CMA church didn't even become a denomination for about 90 years after starting. Soooo.... What did Albert 'found' anyhow? He was dead and gone when the church became a denomination...... I suppose a person could try to claim that God raised up Albert to start the movement much as people claim that ol' Willie was raised up by God...... Ol' Willie and the boys founded your church in the same manner. I know you really like your definition of normal word usage so I'll toss in this for you: church \ˈchərch\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit śūra hero, warrior Date: before 12th century 1: a building for public and especially Christian worship 2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body 3often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: denomination <the Presbyterian church> c: congregation 4: a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday> 5: the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career> Scott __
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Post by kiwi on Dec 26, 2008 4:34:12 GMT -5
I don't believe any worker today REALLY, REALLY Know what going on in 1890's... What they think they know now is provided by what they read on TTT website..... information provided and written mostly by the exes!
I don't think we will KNOW the whole/true story in 1890's. When people become exes they change their stories, understanding so who knows....
One thing we KNOW definately is the fruit of the Spirit manifesting in our hearts, the relationship with God is for REAL. This is the TRUE test we should worry about.
Don't worry too much about history! because we don't know all the facts, see the whole picture, or who is telling the truth or half-truth. Nathan I like what you and Todd have expressed and I know that WI has no bearing on my relationship with God, but I see him as being a big distraction for many on this board. Far as I am concerned he was only a man used by God for a certain purpose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2008 6:31:03 GMT -5
Personally, I have my doubts that William Irvine was ever used by God. Of course I don't really know, but the more I read about him, the more wayward I see him. In my view Eddy Cooney showed much more of the Christ-like spirit in all that he said and did. He was also part of the sect for about twice as long as Irvine.
Irvine just couldn't leave his Coal Company roots behind him. Any time someone sold all and brought the proceeds to him, he just said it was "MINE !"
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Post by todd on Dec 26, 2008 7:36:12 GMT -5
Yes, W.I. it seems was a very wayward man. The fact that such a man (as wayward as he was) could be used in such a way (to deliver such a pure message of simply following God), was amazing to say the least and just proves the power of God to use lives as he sees fit.
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Post by todd on Dec 26, 2008 8:41:28 GMT -5
There are over 20 ex workers here on the TMB, and they pretty much will agree with the fact that the truth fellowship has been telling a lie about its history for a long time. I would like you to read my wheat story (fictional story) and tell me if you could honestly say that Billion (fictional man) was the founder of the way they were growing wheat. I doubt that you could. And this is exactly why people get things so wrong. For example, people think that professing means that you are gaining membership in a religion, and it means nothing like that. It wouldn't be so bad if the word used was slightly wrong but everyone understood what another was talking about, but in this case people don't even use professing in the right context because what they think it means, doesn't even exist. There you go saying, the church I attend as if it is a physical place. The physical place I attend was established only a couple of years ago, and definitely not by William. Anyway,I was really asking what he founded. Is this body of Christ what William founded? I realize that William DID something, and that he WAS part of history, but I would like to know if he did any more than deliver a message to some others about following the way of God, and arrange some meetings. If he did more than this please please please tell me . If William actually did take a name unique to what he founded, then I guess all the different names that are now used are built on a different founding and have nothing to do with William, other than the fact that they also had the message of following God's way bought to them. Oh dear... the end is near for me on this board. On the VOT forum they said a few times almost the same words, and even told me my comments were welcome and that I would never be told to shut up, or be kicked off the forum, right before I was kicked off the forum. A sign of the times.
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Post by freespirit on Dec 26, 2008 9:14:38 GMT -5
Nathan I like what you and Todd have expressed and I know that WI has no bearing on my relationship with God, but I see him as being a big distraction for many on this board. Far as I am concerned he was only a man used by God for a certain purpose. It is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith. But... well... apparently some write and sing hymns to WI:
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 26, 2008 10:06:09 GMT -5
Oh dear... the end is near for me on this board. On the VOT forum they said a few times almost the same words, and even told me my comments were welcome and that I would never be told to shut up, or be kicked off the forum, right before I was kicked off the forum. A sign of the times.Nope. the way you are posting certainly won't get you booted off of this board. There have been very few who have gotten banned over here. Like I said, I get a chuckle out of your spin on the different issues. Others have said the same thing off board to me, and it is quite humorous to see you valiantly trying to change how people use the terminology here. Good luck with trying to change that!!!! If you want to gain some credibility here though, you might try to accept the fact that the terminology used by members of your fellowship is just that.... the terminology that is used by your fellowship. It is also the terminology that those who have left use for the most part also. I have lots of professing family members, and some relatives in the work that I communicate with. Add to that the other workers and professing folks that I communicate with, and it makes your attempts to change how we are using words pretty funny actually. Like I said, I'm getting a real chuckle out of your posts. Maybe at the next convention you could stand outside the tent/barn/shed/hall/whatever and hand out some printouts with the: TODD'S NEW TERMINOLOGY FOR THE group you meet/hang out with on Sundays. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 26, 2008 10:12:47 GMT -5
No I am not saying that at all. If you understood the wheat post you would have seen that. Maybe as Sharon says, I am probably getting too deep here, but what I was saying that if you can't explain the truth to someone because of their lack of faith, and if saying something is going to cause their belief to be further from the truth, you shouldn't be saying it. The very "truth" that people seem to be asking to be told (William being the founder) is far from the truth, so you don't have to wonder why that isn't told. I have repeatedly asked (not just on this forum) what it was that William founded, and nobody has been able to come up with an answer that justifies their requests that everyone is told that he is the founder.well.... You're right about one thing. It's getting pretty deep! The fact is, that there are many workers (and regular professing folks) that are willing to discuss the history of your church Todd. They are being open about how it started and how it evolved over the years. Of course there are still some that want to keep it covered up worried about how some will feel deceived because of the lies that were told in the past, but they are finding out that most people are just fine with hearing about the history, and they appreciate the openness and honesty of the workers who are willing to talk about it. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 26, 2008 10:18:36 GMT -5
I would like you to read my wheat story (fictional story) and tell me if you could honestly say that Billion (fictional man) was the founder of the way they were growing wheat. I doubt that you could.I read it. Unfortunately, ol' Willie and the boys weren't wheat farmers. They founded a new religion/denomination/group/whatever that caught on with many. How many other groups do you know of that have annual conventions/special meetings/gospel meetings in rented halls/terminology used/workers living in the members homes/hidden trust accounts etc.... Nathan will tell us how the Vaudois and others started doing this apostolic succession and it is just another extension of that I suppose..... Scott
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Post by freespirit on Dec 26, 2008 10:29:57 GMT -5
Unfortunately, ol' Willie and the boys weren't wheat farmers. They founded a new religion/denomination/group/whatever that caught on with many. WI didn't found Christianity. 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. One problem I see with "organized religion" is that it brings so many divisions among people. When we focus on Christ and allow God to work inside us then our human divisions can melt away so that God is lifted up and He can become our Lord, our Saviour, our everything. freespirit
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 26, 2008 10:54:06 GMT -5
Hey freespirit! WI didn't found Christianity.You got that right! Christianity has been around ever since Christ. (makes sense huh?) It was alive and well when ol' Willie and the boys started up their group. It is still flourishing around the world in many different denominations. 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. I just love the fact that the church I attend teaches us that all Christians are members of the body of Christ. It doesn't matter which group we fellowship with, we are all important members of the Church, and we each have our own gifts to bring to the Church, and each gift is needed to be shared with the rest of the Church. True Christian denominations are simply separated on doctrinal issues of the manmade variety, but all believe in that it is that personal relationship with Jesus that is going to bring salvation, and they preach that the church(denomination) will not save you. Thanks for sharing that passage. It is a great one that the pastor of our church has spoken of, and how the different true Christian denominations are all of one mind when it comes to how we are saved. One problem I see with "organized religion" is that it brings so many divisions among people. When we focus on Christ and allow God to work inside us then our human divisions can melt away so that God is lifted up and He can become our Lord, our Saviour, our everything. Amen to that statement!!!! It isn't usually the people that are the issue among Christians, it is the organizations that try to tell the congregation what they should think or feel and say and do. I have seen the divisions melting away with many here on the board, and also with those I correspond with 'off board'. When 'the people' realize that we all believe the same, the 'organized religion' can go take a flying leap as far as how it affects our fellowshipping with one another!!!!! Scott
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Dec 26, 2008 11:21:40 GMT -5
How about: meninpinksuitswomeninbunsandskirtschurch. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D fs I would just like to take the time to express that I am NOT the founder of this church. Though my name is Pink and I speak with a pink tongue, I am not the founder. Though I am bestowed with long flowing hair and even more so long flowing skirts, I am not the founder. And though I have faith (not really) that I could ride over snow covered mountains without chains on my tires, I am not the founder. But stick around for 100 years to discuss the details. The devil is in them, you know.
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Post by freespirit on Dec 26, 2008 11:58:58 GMT -5
How about: meninpinksuitswomeninbunsandskirtschurch. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D fs I would just like to take the time to express that I am NOT the founder of this church. Though my name is Pink and I speak with a pink tongue, I am not the founder. Though I am bestowed with long flowing hair and even more so long flowing skirts, I am not the founder. And though I have faith (not really) that I could ride over snow covered mountains without chains on my tires, I am not the founder. But stick around for 100 years to discuss the details. The devil is in them, you know. ROTFLOL!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D And.... HOORAY... another long haired woman! freespirit (who feels like a rebel against society for refusing to cut her hair even at *gasp* my age)
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Post by ilylo on Dec 26, 2008 21:08:11 GMT -5
todd,
Thanks for sending the hot air. It felt great today.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Dec 26, 2008 21:15:36 GMT -5
William Irving-Irvine Born Jan 1863in Kilsyth Scotland Was the third of eleven children. Schooled in Scotland (very little schooling ) Started working at age 9 in a store. Started in coal mine age 10 Became supervisor when he was nearly 20 Had 1000 men under him (and was preaching then) In 1886 @23 became a Masson (Masonic Lodge) he wrote a letter in1937 stating “I am a Masson for over 50yrs. In 1893 became a Presbyterian and in the same yr wrote a book Presbyterian upbringing Sister dies in late 80’searly 90’s An illagit son was born Had a son & daughter 1895 32yrs of age June 14th joined the faith mission, became a pilgrim (Lay Minister) 1896 MAY, went to Ireland still with The Faith Mission. 1897in mid yr went to southern Ireland. (And beginning of new faith.) 1898-1900 was Superintendent of southern Ireland. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Things start happening 1898-99. George Walker teams up with Wm Irvine and Ed Cooney 1900 quite a stir going on at The Faith Mission HQ (TFM was form in 1886 by Mr. Govan )letters written denouncing Wm Irvine and his associates from the TFM 1901 Faith Mission denounces any dealings with Irvine and work in southern Ireland. Alpha Vision born Wm Irvine, Eddy Cooney and George Walker 1902-03 went to USA in search of new pedigree, everything is ok till 1908to1914 Wm Irvine declares Alpha Vision finished and Omega Vision begins this was muffled till after the war 1918. In 1919 Wm Irvine would not decline from his stance and therefore was removed, this caused a great rift. The omega message followers believed Jesus returned in Aug 1914. I think Wm Irvine moved to Jerusalem between 1919 and1924 after the earthquake! In 1927 moved to the Adjani Quarter of Jaffa. (Part over looking the sea.) In1941 he had mouth cancer which went terminal and fell really ill in Nov,19th 1946 by Feb of 1947, his condition had really worsened. He was confined to his hotel rm, were he past away at 11:50am 9th of March (Sunday) 1947 in Jerusalem 84yrs old I think this should some it up.
And yes Cheri Kropp, I do have a copy of the letter sent to you 29th May 1991 from TFM. Now the truth is out WM Irvine was a good man with good intentions but became side tract. Did Jesus return yet? I DON”T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!! Our conclusion of this and other maters is this. As long as those who minister fulfill What JESUS taught and as the scriptures teach us then we will support them!
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Post by ilylo on Dec 26, 2008 21:18:02 GMT -5
As long as those who minister fulfill What JESUS taught and as the scriptures teach us then we will support them! If you lie you have every thing to fear. Hmmm....
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 27, 2008 1:01:17 GMT -5
you know, much of what I read on here is a battle between the outies wanting to force the innies to admit there is nothing special about being an innie, and the innies squirming to avoid admitting it. More than anything, outies want innies to say, "No, there would be no f&w way on the earth if it were not for Irvine."
Why, that's sacrilege! C'mon, guys, quit playing with other people's religion. Before forcing somebody to admit how utterly common their beliefs are, I challenge the Christians here to say this:
"There would be no Christianity on the earth today if it were not for ____" (Constantine? St. Paul?)
"There would be no monotheism on the earth today if it were not for ____" (Abraham? Isaiah?)
"The concept of heavenly gods would have never evolved if it were not for ____" (the Egyptians? the Aryans? Zoroaster?)
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 27, 2008 1:23:09 GMT -5
Sometimes I laugh my tail off, sometimes I grow angry, sometimes I just sit in open-mouthed wonder at the way I can, on about every other post of some threads, find somebody criticizing the f&w's for some arcane statement or belief and then in the next sentence they post a topologically equivalent statement or belief.
For example, somebody will say (the equivalent of) "you idiot, God loves ALL Christians, not just f&w's!" And really mean it! Ridicule one person for drawing lines for God's love at the same time they draw lines! I should make one of Bert's lists.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 27, 2008 1:25:57 GMT -5
If my last two posts don't seem congruent, I am asking Christians to state plainly that their founder is Paul, the guy who promoted Christianity among the gentiles and created a religion...or else drop the idea that Irvine is the f&w founder. Quit with the double-standards.
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Post by todd on Dec 27, 2008 1:58:35 GMT -5
I would like you to read my wheat story (fictional story) and tell me if you could honestly say that Billion (fictional man) was the founder of the way they were growing wheat. I doubt that you could.I read it. Unfortunately, ol' Willie and the boys weren't wheat farmers. I was asking about Billion in the fictional story, not William. They? Are you saying there was more than one founder? I thought the claim was it was just William Irvine that founded something. Most groups that I know about. Some call them camps, but I'm not going to question that if they are using the true meaning of what they are doing there. Again, most groups that I know about. Remember that these people have gone out to preach the gospel, and I guess none of them are about to arrive in a town and buy a hall. They may never be back there to look after their building. But, when you have a 200 or so people coming to listen, you are going to have to preach somewhere. Some use 'convention', some use 'church camp'. It seems that terminology isn't exclusive. As long as people know the true meaning of the terminology, there isn't a problem. Yeah well, if you have just been sent out to preach the gospel, this is a reasonable thing to do. Do you mean that they hide the account numbers and passwords, or do you think that they actually use offshore accounts so that they can't be traced?? I actually hide my accounts too. Maybe you are talking about just the fact that there are accounts. Remember that these people are hiring halls.
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Post by todd on Dec 27, 2008 2:06:34 GMT -5
Oh dear... the end is near for me on this board. On the VOT forum they said a few times almost the same words, and even told me my comments were welcome and that I would never be told to shut up, or be kicked off the forum, right before I was kicked off the forum. A sign of the times.Nope. the way you are posting certainly won't get you booted off of this board. There have been very few who have gotten banned over here. Yep things are looking bad for me. This is also very similar to what VOT said to me when I suggested that they will probably kick me off. They said, nope the way I post is exactly what they wanted... and then I was gone.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 27, 2008 3:33:48 GMT -5
That's because the VOT forum isn't run by a bunch of 2x2 apologetics like you. You thought you could spraypaint your idiocy on their wall and got your fingers nicked in the process. How sad for you.
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Post by freespirit on Dec 27, 2008 4:23:46 GMT -5
Hey freespirit! WI didn't found Christianity.You got that right! Christianity has been around ever since Christ. (makes sense huh?) ...from the beginning... John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
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