ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by ddowdy on Oct 17, 2008 21:44:20 GMT -5
I believe that the open home concept of "workers" living and sustaining themselves from home to home belonging to members of the cult poses a significant threat to the cult. There is no scriptural justification for the policy. Furthermore, it is fairly easy to deduce how and why William Irvine hit upon the idea of housing his cult's ministers among its followers and his reasons appear to have little or nothing to do with any biblical strictures, but that is another discussion for another time.
What I would like to focus on in this post is the damage done to the status of the cult by its policy of housing its ministers among and in the homes of the cult faithful. First, look at the misconduct which is and, has always been, rife within the cult. Certainly, at least with respect to the sexual misconduct and, in particular the abuse of children, this would be far more difficult were the perpetrators of these acts not housed with their victims thereby facilitating both access and opportunity.
Another factor to consider is the sheer unnatural situation created by the policy. Cult "workers" are not invited guests, often their presence is not even desired by at least some members of the households they invade. The atmosphere created by and because of their stays at the homes of followers is often tense and uncomfortable.
"We went to visit a home one day and we knocked and they saw us and said just a minute and closed the door for a couple of minutes and then they invited us in. Everything was gone but the remote control was still out on the table.
In another home, in one of their boy's bedrooms I noticed a lump in the mattress. I looked under the mattress and pulled out a book and proceeded to read some of the vilest and dirtiest things I had ever read in all of my life. The next morning we had a talk about things and that night when I checked the book was gone. Hiding from the workers is hypocrisy." Lyle Shultz, Mountain Ranch Convention (Aftn. Mtg., Fri., May 25, 2007)
I could be wrong but, I would guess that at least some of the members of the two families referred to in the passage above aren't overjoyed when they see ol' Lyle pulling up in the driveway. I would predict that the cult's practice of housing its "workers" among the followers will eventually go the way of the black stockings and the ban on radios among other things. Going ahead and doing it sooner rather than later will only benefit the cult and help its hierarchy stay out of and away from trouble. Any thoughts?
|
|
ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by ddowdy on Oct 26, 2008 2:02:46 GMT -5
It is nice to be this right about a topic. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Nov 5, 2008 17:04:14 GMT -5
Some workers seem to think that criticism, accusation and gossip is bread. I think talking trash about the friends from the platform is a bad practice.
freespirit
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Nov 5, 2008 17:11:10 GMT -5
If workers are preaching trash about the friends? why is that tolerated?
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Nov 5, 2008 17:28:24 GMT -5
In another home, in one of their boy's bedrooms I noticed a lump in the mattress. I looked under the mattress and pulled out a book and proceeded to read some of the vilest and dirtiest things I had ever read in all of my life. The next morning we had a talk about things and that night when I checked the book was gone. Hiding from the workers is hypocrisy." [/i] Lyle Shultz, Mountain Ranch Convention (Aftn. Mtg., Fri., May 25, 2007) [/quote] So... lemme get this straight... a grown man snooped around in a child's room, even under the child's bed-covers to find something to accuse the boy of. I don't know what the book was--maybe the book really was horrible. But I do not think that it is okay for a grown man to enter a child's room and pull back the covers because he saw a lump and then announce the "sin" to all the people at convention. IMO this worker needs to get his sermons out of his BIBLE. This honestly angered me. Gossip and accusations are not what I go to convention for. I do not need to hear the sins of the people paraded around in front of an audience. We get enough of that on TMB. What horrible meetings we would have if every Sunday the friends came in and told of what bad things they had seen other friends/workers doing rather than speaking about God. If I had been the mother of this child, whether my kid was right or wrong, this worker and I would have had a very serious talk about the worker's manners and behavior. fs
|
|
|
Post by sapphire on Nov 5, 2008 17:53:05 GMT -5
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, freespirit! This angered me too - in no way is it right, what this worker did... in no way was it right for him to tell about it at convention... and in no way is this subject BREAD to feed hungry souls.
He's just assuming they were watching a movie. Could've been a number of things... maybe the lady of the home was cooking dinner with only her apron on! ;D Good grief, how hard would it be to just CALL first and ask if it's convenient for them to stop by?!
|
|
|
Post by MsMarie on Nov 12, 2008 1:49:13 GMT -5
I remember that once, when a worker was staying, as we were eating our evening meal, on its own (honestly) a cupboard door swung open in the room and there was our radio which was contraband at that time. I was so embarassed and the worker said "Neither is there anything hidden which shall not be revealed". Makes me laugh a lot now!
|
|
|
Post by MsMarie on Nov 12, 2008 4:11:35 GMT -5
On a more serious note, I know it is hypocrisy to hide things from workers, but on looking back and really asking myself why I did this (and in the end it was much, much more than just a radio) it was very often to spare the feelings of these workers to whom it was so important, when it obviously was not that important to us. Many workers no more desired confrontation than we did. And of course, being really honest, we just didn't want the fall out from a challenge. However, I do remember Friends gossiping gleefully about how they had spotted other members wearing or doing something against the rules. Was there ever such a grapevine?
We used to have one worker who we knew searched the house from top to bottom if left alone, and even asked what was behind closed doors when we were there.
Returning to the main thread of this, this is all because of workers being billeted on folks and it is true that many were unwilling recipients, especially where workers were inconsiderate, snoopy, had unfortunate personal habits or treated the lady of the house like a handmaiden (but there were lovely ones too who we looked forward to having). There was also the opposite side of the coin where workers would stay with the more prominent members and lesser members would be affronted. In other words, I would agree this practice does give rise to all sorts of repercussions.
Not sure what the alternative could be for the organisation of this church. Only buying or renting properties for that express purpose, buying cars etc - can't see any of these happening....
I would love to start a thread asking contributors about the times they got 'caught out' by workers. I expect there would be quite a few laughs now.
|
|
|
Post by lynette on Nov 12, 2008 7:48:58 GMT -5
A worker at a convention told a story about searching for a kitten in a freinds house and finding 'certain electrical equipment' hidden in a cupboard. They went on to say how terrible it was, not the sort of thing God's people should have in there homes and that it was of the Devil and would lead people astray. It seems TV's, DVD's, radios etc are 'unmentionable'.
I agree that it is no the right thing to tell these kind of stories at convention however it is a method of letting people know the rules and instilling fear into people.
I have a TV on top of a cupboard and I don't hide it - even when the workers are there!! None of them have ever said anything about it.
|
|
|
Post by lin on Nov 12, 2008 10:42:58 GMT -5
Doesn't God see everything. Why is it hypocrisy?
|
|
|
Post by MsMarie on Nov 13, 2008 2:03:05 GMT -5
Presenting yourself as one thing to the workers and actually being different privately. To make the outward clean and not the inward is called hypocrisy in the Bible. Whether or not obeying these rules makes one clean is debatable, but the principle is the same.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Nov 13, 2008 13:11:25 GMT -5
Presenting yourself as one thing to the workers and actually being different privately. To make the outward clean and not the inward is called hypocrisy in the Bible. Whether or not obeying these rules makes one clean is debatable, but the principle is the same. Behaving differently in different situations or in different social settings is not, at least to me, hypocrisy. It is being a social animal. At a cookout eating a piece of chicken with you hands is not a problem but at a dinner party it might not be the thing to do. I act differently when it is just family than I do when we have guests over (and my children thank me for it!).
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Nov 13, 2008 13:35:46 GMT -5
Do you think it is a bz of Elijah going to the widows house?
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Nov 13, 2008 13:42:16 GMT -5
I act differently when it is just family than I do when we have guests over (and my children thank me for it!).
LOL...now that congures up an image. Long time no see dearest
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Nov 13, 2008 13:44:43 GMT -5
I could tell about several incidents of the type mentioned, but I would appreciate if some of those who are workers, or once were workers, would chime in so the rest of us could better understand their perspective on this issue.
If several of you do, I will follow up by relating what an overseer spoke on the issue as a visiting speaker to a Gospel meeting in our area.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Nov 13, 2008 18:53:51 GMT -5
I would be curious about this, Ron.
I know that in some churches the ministers have a standard of ethics when it comes to sharing private or confidential information. I think some even sign contracts or take vows of this nature so that they will be a trusted source of council for the congregation.
I have seem many, many, many people get very hurt by gossip or the sharing of what should have been a private matter in the fellowship. It angers me when the workers go from house to house with loose lips.
Here's an interesting saying:
Big people talk about ideas. Medium people talk about things. And small people talk about other people.
freespirit
|
|
|
Post by MsMarie on Nov 14, 2008 3:13:57 GMT -5
Try telling a worker who discovered your TV set that you were being a social animal! I think that would go down like a lead balloon.....
|
|
|
Post by moralityagain on Jun 23, 2009 21:21:47 GMT -5
Well, God does not like TV I guess and he would rather have people not go to movies or play cards or have any fun at all. I guess he does not like people owning boats and going out on the lake on Sunday and he is mostly interested in having you give yourself wholeheartedly to giving time and money to his true preachers and their agenda. God does not like bowling or roller skating and I guess he is really against golfing and things like that. Now it seems strange that he created everything and made balls so they could roll and made game using them and he invented cards and how to play them. So, he must be a playful fellow really and likes to have fun sometimes. It might be good to go ahead and play the games he has made up and invite him to stand with you and make you the winner so that you can show that he is with you. As to TV, I think God does not like comedy much since his preachers (at least in the truth group) only used humor to make fun of other churches and stuff. But, maybe God does like a good laugh once in a while and that is why he created us in his own image with a good sense of humor. I guess God must like old I love Lucy for example. He made her, he made the studios, he allowed the others who played on the show with her to be there etc.. So, God must like redheads for some reason and f;unny stories and things. All we ever got to hear about was how we were not to go to movies and have TV or radio and were supposed to be home on Saturday night preparing ourselves for Sunday morning when we had to wear clothes that were acceptable to the workers and etc.. Entertainment? God does not like it even though he allowed it to be made. God does not have a TV I bet and he does not have a VCR or computer. It is hard to understand how God gave all these things to mankind and at the same time wanted to remain somewhere around 1897 himself with his attitudes and what he likes to do. Anyway, he does not like tennis shoes in meeting I was told. He prefers wing tips or at least did back in the sixties. So, God has weird and unexplainable tastes in clothing and hobbies and recreational things. If you are really close to God and have him as your friend and can sit down with him any time you might want to just suggest to him that some of this stuff about clothing and recreation and things is just not what most people like to do. Maybe you can talk him into getting a little more loose with all these silly rules or maybe get him to fire whoever came up with the nonsense rules to begin with. The all claim to work for him so he must know who they are and be able to just terminate them immediately for not letting people have a good round of bowling with their friends I guess.
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Jun 24, 2009 21:59:51 GMT -5
I doubt very much that God is against the sports you mention morality. I know the workers were and friends and family were who are inside. God provided this beautiful planet earth for us to enjoy and play in whether it is water, sand mountains and all of it is there to restore our soul. So that we dont become to spiritually minded. It is for our enjoyment. I have a personal opinion that GOd is the one who laughes the hardest is the biggest of jokers, has a massive sense of humour...he made my mind....and that he loves abundantly gives more than we ever could and is the most playful of beings. Everything we love is in him magnified. Except sex. We wont need sex in heaven. Because...........if there is any procreating I think we will be the creators with him..
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 26, 2009 12:40:32 GMT -5
If you doubt that God has a sense of humor....think about the Zebra! The Chameleon! The baboons!
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 26, 2009 12:42:20 GMT -5
You know a worker said not so many years ago that God puts the knowledge within us to know about things like...inventions, how to use a computer...like programming it, like fixing it or even like building it....now why is it selective knowledge? Doesn't God give the people who've invented fun and games the same knowledge? Perhaps God isn't against all this knowledge, but He is for "Letting your moderation be made known to all men."
|
|
|
Post by mexicali on Jun 26, 2009 23:01:17 GMT -5
If you have ever been scuba diving and saw the hilariously colored and patterned fish and plants - you will never doubt that God has a sense of humor!
saludos, mexicali
|
|
|
Post by tenny88 on Jul 2, 2009 0:36:36 GMT -5
I find it quite interesting the way some of you portray the truth. I was born and raised in the truth and would like to get a few things clear. In our home, we had a TV, radio, computer (with internet), a boat, rollerskates, bikes, cards, and bowling balls. None of which were hidden from our workers. Those that say we believe that these things are "evil" or the "devil" are wrong. It is only frowned upon when more time is spent on those things than is given to our Father. And believe it or not, we have always ENJOYED having the workers over. I have never heard the workers speak a bad word or gossip about anyone, nor has anyone else I have spoken with at meeting around the U.S. The workers never just "show up" at a home without an invitation. There are more than enough families inviting them in each day, so they have no need to ask or come uninvited.
|
|
npdw
Junior Member
Posts: 50
|
Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 10:27:29 GMT -5
Some workers seem to think that criticism, accusation and gossip is bread. I think talking trash about the friends from the platform is a bad practice. freespirit Firstly, I agree. It's a bad practice. But what about talking trash about the friends and workers on forums such as these? That makes two bad practices. Tenny88 it's good to see a different spin on things. A positive spin.
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 11:00:10 GMT -5
Spin is spin.
|
|
|
Post by Redwing on Jul 7, 2009 14:46:17 GMT -5
I find it quite interesting the way some of you portray the truth. I was born and raised in the truth and would like to get a few things clear. In our home, we had a TV, radio, computer (with internet), a boat, rollerskates, bikes, cards, and bowling balls. None of which were hidden from our workers. Those that say we believe that these things are "evil" or the "devil" are wrong. It is only frowned upon when more time is spent on those things than is given to our Father. And believe it or not, we have always ENJOYED having the workers over. I have never heard the workers speak a bad word or gossip about anyone, nor has anyone else I have spoken with at meeting around the U.S. The workers never just "show up" at a home without an invitation. There are more than enough families inviting them in each day, so they have no need to ask or come uninvited. I'm trying to figure out where you could possibly live to write that.
|
|
|
Post by jhjmr on Jul 9, 2009 16:41:07 GMT -5
We were told that if our skirt didn't cover over our knees that it was to distracting for the worker to have a meeting when they are standing in front at a mission. So my mother ripped out our hems and we put them back in many many times until the skirt still haunts me to this day. We were not allowed to be in the school band because the world was in the band. As children we had to talk very quiet when the workers were around, apparently God only whispers. If we giggled to much, Mary Shorten would stearnly say, now girls. That straightened us up in a hurry.
|
|
|
Post by MsMarie on Jul 12, 2009 4:45:41 GMT -5
I wonder too where Redwing comes from that nothing was said. He should count his lucky stars and take it from the majority of us that we never encountered such tolerance - ever! Would Redwing have been willing to change all that if ordered like most folks in the Truth?
|
|