ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Oct 12, 2008 4:18:02 GMT -5
Any specific duty or responsibility as committed Christians to actively oppose cults like the 2x2's and others like them? Is there an inherant responsibility to try and ensure that the distortions, misrepresentations and outright lies these groups regularly employ in their efforts to ensnare unsuspecting victims are identified and explained?
I realize that the easier route is to take a live and let live approach. Even on this board that is often advocated. The other side is not following that course however. Scarcely a day goes by that doesn't see the streets of my city playing host to Latter Day Saints, Jehova's Witnesses and Scientologists (just to name a few) all out vigorously promoting their beliefs and competing for the hearts and minds of Christians among others. The 2x2's are in the mix as well. Everyone familiar with the 2x2 cult is well aware that it is a tremendous "feather in one's cap" to bring some trusting soul into a gospel meeting for the first time.
Just as all of the cults I mentioned in the paragraph above have a tendency to create their own "reality" at the expense of Christian orthodoxy, so do the 2x2's and they are out there doing just that. In fact they are right here doing so. This was a question posed right here on TMB to someone identifying themselves as "worker #83" ostensibly a 2x2 "worker":
"Being B&R as a 2x2 member, I was always told that the church was started by Jesus and dates back to him. Since we now know that the church was started by William Irvine about 100 years ago, it's obvious that what I was told as a child can not be true. What do you tell people who ask you about the origins of the church?"
#83 answered: "Professed when I was a teenager, whole family totally new to truth, so didn't know any 'history' - heard about the black stocking issue - didn't shake my faith. We are a bit slow to accept the modern trends, we don't want to be the first nor the last - middle of the road is temperance/modesty, etc. etc.
First year in the work, I was encouraged by my companion to read the Secret Sect as someone wanted to visit about it and she thought my being fairly new to Truth, should know what others criticize. I found it totally hilarious - honestly ! Why ??
1) There were accusations that young workers didn't get any money - I had money given to me by the friends, shared from my companion who being received more thru her large correspondence, than I did in my few letter writings, shared with by the overseer, inquired if I had 'enough' for my needs every time he saw me, etc.
2) there were accusations that young workers were not ALLOWED to do anything, use the phone, drive the vehicle, etc. And that very day, my companion asked me to please call a certain family and see if it was convenient with them if we came for a visit - I answered her, Oh, but the BOOK says, I can't do that. She looked so puzzled - then realized it was a joke !
3) the next day I was driving as we went out for the day of visits, the gas tank was getting low, and she looked over at me and said, 'did you ever own a car?', 'yes, why?' 'what did you do when it needed gas?' "filled it up, why?" "don't you think this car needs some gas?" "yeah, I saw that, but didn't know if it was my place to say anything or not" - I was DEAD serious - not a joke because of the book, just didn't feel she needed me telling her that the car needed gas. She then proceeded to inform me that we were equals, responsible adults, professional, and that my contribution was not only welcomed but expected - I was not in this ministry to carry her suitcase !
During the visit with the one who had given us the book (an outsider who was coming to mtgs, never professed) he told us he was so disappointed in the book as he was hoping to find a book on the history of the fellowship and what he found was a book written by a disgruntled person who had 3 issues that were giving him a complex 1) money, 2) independence, 3)problem with authority. That was his impressions of the 'history' as presented in the Secret Sect.
I explain the ministry Jesus established, believing to still be the model for us, and fellowship and NT church. I understand that we can NOT trace a direct lineage thru the ages of continuation and then the time when William Irvine and others were inspired to return to that model and that today we look to that same NT model. Obviously I don't know all the details of William Irvine's inspiration (some post here that it was modelled after the masonic teaching, others that it was after some other mission) But the point is he wasn't alone -there were others and he didn't continue but others did and the inspiration continued. To follow the model of the NT - I'm satisfied with that - Is it founded by a man ? NO - it's founded/established by Christ.
Now, this is a long way around but I enjoy relaxing this way - sharing my experiences...thanks for your patience in reading."
Note the long meandering misdirection filled with circuitous and illogical dialogue much of which is also of questionable veracity, which avoids directly answering the question until the very end when #83 says essentially but, does not admit, that...yes, she will lie when queried about the cult's history. Incidentally the anecdote about the outsider who read the book and found it unsatisfying has been floated around several internet sites by several different 2x2 "mouthpieces" and it remains as unbelievable now as when I first read it...however it must be part of the official "party line".
The point is though that there are people like this out there using trickery and treachery to try and win the hearts, minds and souls of unsuspecting often trusting people who usually are searching for a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. Should those of us who know this cult intimately and know what it is, what kind of damage it can do and how it can actually stand in the way of that closer relationship with Him, stand idly by or, must we strive to do what we can to enlighten those persons and give them whatever assistance and encouragement possible?
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15 (KJV)
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Oct 14, 2008 23:43:05 GMT -5
I hope it doesn't violate protocol to respond to my own post but this topic is of great interest to me. How do those of us who consider ourselves Christians and who have had close contact with this cult or a similar one either through actual membership or just by virtue of proximity, deal with cult activism? I came across something a while back on another website (TLT) that was submitted by one of this site's most respected contributors, Dennis Jacobsen and his words had a profound effect upon me. "...I did not approve of workers claiming no salary, nor support, but living on retirement pensions. Heard friends at meetings and conventions constantly giving workers praise belonging to GOD as Father Son and Holy Ghost and Him alone. Unable to do hardly anything in friend's homes, became treated like peoples idols along with other workers. Therold Sylvester was an enigma. He had told me that he had been sent from the work when he came to the State of Washington. He found there was no forward Overseer in Washington, and just stepped in, friends and other workers thinking He had Willie and Eldon's approval at that time when they had nothing to do with his presumption. Later he knew he had told me those things, and became afraid I might begin talking about them, and looked for a way to force me from the 2&2 scene. Another worker, (who eventually began to have reports of his homosexuality come to light, and still a worker to this day) had run ins with Therold. However when I was falsely accused, he also know I was aware of his orientation (I slept on the floor when his companion) and joined up with Therold Sylvester in their kangaroo court... ...Soon my excommunication was complete. We took a vacation to try to relieve the stress. I attended meetings in other parts, but soon I found doors open to me one week were absolutely closed the next, as libel and slander spread across the USA Canada and northern Europe... ...Instead when I'm asked to give my testimony about my experience, and do, people jump me for even relating anything about it. I want no punishment on those who have caused me and my family so much anguish. I've prayed for them constantly. As to why I continue to post to this forum, it is not to harp on workers or friends. Those who are guilty of gossip and false rumor know who they are and will be convicted by their conscience, unless it is too seared to even guide them to righteousness. Vengeance is indeed the Lord's and I've prayed over and over that He forgive these people who understand so little of what Christ came to finish... ...Personally I believe the religious system of 2&2ism is indeed a caste system. "Workers" are at the top, followed by "convention place owners." Next those so devout and loyal to the workers as if THEY are their "Christ." These are they who run to the workers to gossip and henpeck, and become favored for their relationship (sometimes financial) with the workers. When my daughter finally began to get her eyes open, I could see she was unable to break free, even though she no longer considered herself one of the group. I perceived she was leaving for the wrong reason, injustice. So, I gave her the keys to our car, told her to drive herself to the convention with her bed roll and clothes. I made sure she had a notebook along. I told her to make a hatchmark on one side for every time friends and workers expressed thankfulness for workers and "the way." Then I told her to make a hatchmark for every time the Blood of Christ was mentioned or He praised for His sacrifice and the salvation found in HIM rather than in the 2&2 way/method. She came home with the one side filled with hatch marks, and the report that of the workers, only Gary Paul had spoken of His Blood and thankfulness for HIM. Not one of the friends had expressed such thankfulness for our Lord. Each time there was thankfulness for "the way" it was in reference to their church group, not the LORD Himself. I am now nearly 63. I've known every aspect of 2&2ism. This is an honest account of my experiences amongst them. I spent nearly 50 years of devout service to the Lord in that Group and even having given my very best of health strength and youth, when falsely accused quickly experienced the most vile behavior imaginable by people thinking themselves among the only ones "right" on earth. As long as glorious accounts are published by those who believe 2&2ism is the truth, or the Truth, whether capitalized or not, I will present truth as I now know it to be. Do I ever expect an apology from workers or their devout friends? Absolutely not. Do I hate them? Of course not. I love them still. Hundreds of relatives still are devout believers in that group. However, I am very disappointed in most every 2&2er, as I experience very conditional love if any at all, and most often nothing except reserved acknowledgment. There is absolutely nothing except wind and weather that they wish to talk about when I happen to meet one of them. An exception to this are a very few who when alone are warm and friendly, but if another 2&2 appears on the scene the atmosphere immediately becomes cold and foreboding. Why? Dunno, never been able to figure that out myself, because I don't want to think of them as two faced. There is one niece who is consistently kind and loving. From experience I believe that work itself is a cult. I've never known them as a whole to be able to show unconditional love, nor extend grace freely. From some who post here, I find there are those beginning to see such things, and are working for the better. I pray for you every day. I want us all one and together with the Lord in eternity." I highly recommend to everyone that they read Mr. Jacobsen's entire testimony on TLT at: www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=wri&id=djNo one who is familiar with this man's contributions to this site could realistically accuse him of being "bitter" or "having an ax to grind" against the cult. Yet it is telling that even with his attitude of exceptional Christian charity toward the cult and its members, Mr. Jacobsen still feels a duty to as he phrases it, "present the truth as I know it to be." It is that duty and how it is manifested for each of us who feels it that I am interested in because I feel it as well.
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Post by MsMarie on Oct 15, 2008 7:04:56 GMT -5
I think this is a terrible dilemma for those who have left with a whimper rather than a bang (I just faded out gradually disillusioned). Behind me I left many elderly dear folk whose loss I felt and whose peace of mind and conviction in their way of worship was the anchor of their lives. I just couldn't do it, even though I knew I should because to love them was to care more for their souls than their present comfort. God forgive me for being such a coward. I have spent some time with favourite ex workers too since I left but they refuse to even mention anything 'religious' such is their fear of hearing maybe a truth or two.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 15, 2008 7:30:31 GMT -5
I understand that Ms Marie. I just would get so phsically sick that I slowly stopped going. I didn't have a concrete reason that I could give, I just couldn't do it anymore. I still thought for many years I was going to Hell because I didn't attend meetings and didn't cut my hair because I thought if I did, I for sure would never be able to go back when I was, somehow, some way, in some future time, able to live up to all the standards and expectations.
Now in a way, I wish I could go back and share some things with some of those I really did care(d) about. But now I am one of the so-called lost and deceived....even if my relationship with Jesus is something I never had as a 2x2. I hurt for all those who are still bound by the legalism and are missing out on something so precious....
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Post by MsMarie on Oct 15, 2008 9:03:08 GMT -5
As do I and the only consolation is that they really wouldn't thank you for it. Quite the reverse, you would be seen as a real spiritual enemy trying to undermine their faith. I didn't want that to happen to them or me, and consequently have remained on at least correspondence terms with many. They ignore any reference to who and what I am now and never fail to tell me of the beauties of convention etc. But I do feel guilty that I don't say more. Perhaps we all like to be liked and it is a weakness, well in me anyway. By the very nature of what we were all those years, our natures became acquiescent and unaccustomed to challenge. I still hate confrontation of any kind and run a mile to avoid it.
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 16, 2008 7:57:09 GMT -5
learnedaboutgrace, it's NEVER too late, only when they die..
MsMarie wrote: I just couldn't do it, even though I knew I should because to love them was to care more for their souls than their present comfort. God forgive me for being such a coward.
Did they care for your soul, do you think it really matters whether you tell them or not? I mean you guys make a pretty good stand against me when I point to Bible scripture regarding homosexuality and against those that practice it. You tell me that it is NOT good to judge, that I should be more humble and not 'promote' my 'own ministry' and so on, .. You guys are NOT cowards from where I stand, what gives?
Could it be that you are worried that: "you would be seen as a real spiritual enemy trying to undermine their faith"?
Matt 10:21-22 21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. NKJV
Matt 24:9 9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. NKJV
Mark 13:12-13 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
Luke 21:17-18 17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. NKJV
John 15:18-20 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. NKJV
John 17:14-15 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. NKJV
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Post by itsmethatswho on Oct 17, 2008 17:56:01 GMT -5
2 Timothy 4:
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
Yes, we have a responsibility.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 18, 2008 21:57:56 GMT -5
I agree, we do have a responsibility but we need to balance that with "wisdom". Which to me means sometimes you let it go. We have tried to speak with my mother in law. She doesn't want to hear it. Her mother had a vision and she is counting on that...so scary but it was to the point she was ready to cut us off. We had very little contact with her even tho we live within 15 miles of each other.
Also, I think there is a time and place. Sometimes we might need to manufacture an excuse to meet, but I think many times it just seems to be arranged. I had an amazing experience once...it was just too coincidental to be a "coincident". And in the end, they way we live our lives and the love we show is more a testamony than berating them about their salvation (or lack thereof, in our opinion, and since we are human, we really don't know...)
PS
ariandgabe
on here, it is a little more anonymous, I have time to think through a response, erase, try again...it is a little different than face to face
kwim?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 19, 2008 6:08:48 GMT -5
The point is though that there are people like this out there using trickery and treachery to try and win the hearts, minds and souls of unsuspecting often trusting people who usually are searching for a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. Should those of us who know this cult intimately and know what it is, what kind of damage it can do and how it can actually stand in the way of that closer relationship with Him, stand idly by or, must we strive to do what we can to enlighten those persons and give them whatever assistance and encouragement possible?
We all as christians have a responsiblity to point out erroneus teaching/false doctrine. We are not called to judge the people who are unrightreuos but we are to discern what is of God and what is not. Judgement begins in the house of God. It has too. He wants his church back, globaly. A lot of leaders have hijacked the church. Proselytising the gospel is wrong. Using anything other than the Gospel. Im referring to trickery, and treachery. I agree with your last sentence.
One problem the 2x2s have is they think they are right and every other church is wrong so to even try to get into their mind, mindsets need to be unplugged/disengaged, because of brain washing. With God anything is possible.
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 19, 2008 9:21:24 GMT -5
learnedaboutgrace on here, it is a little more anonymous, I have time to think through a response, erase, try again...it is a little different than face to face
You are so right. IT IS very difficult. My niece is getting married in the 'church' and I don't know if we should attend the wedding, the ceremony part is for members only, and they know how I feel about that hypocrisy that ask those that are NOT members to go outside and wait.
Dowdy:... stand idly by or, must we strive to do what we can to enlighten those persons and give them whatever assistance and encouragement possible?
I say make every opportunity count. The last time I was invited was for her baptism where they sent everyone out during the whole procedure. There were a lot of non-members and visitors outside and I took the opportunity to talk to all of them. As I talked, they all listened, (you could hear a pin drop) with a supprised look on their faces And believe me, later I heard that even the Elders and all the ministers wished they didn’t leave me alone with them, not just the family members.
I used scripture to point out their hypocrisy, and many of them went right up to their ministers telling them what I said and demanded an explanation.
But the threat and the lie that ‘if they don’t belong to the ‘church’ then they will be forever lost’ wins out EVERY time. People are too lazy to continue with their search and make a stand. It is much easier for them to just join and wait for judgment day where they actually believe that the ‘church’ will back them up. They really think that their ‘ministers’ will answer for them for being deceived. I heard some even say so; “Well, they are the servants of God, so if they tricked us, they will give answer for that”.
Here again: They have been called (many are called) And so far not one of them chose the truth (but a few are chosen)
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Post by Annan on Dec 4, 2008 23:11:46 GMT -5
Any specific duty or responsibility as committed Christians to actively oppose cults like the 2x2's and others like them? Is there an inherent responsibility to try and ensure that the distortions, misrepresentations and outright lies these groups regularly employ in their efforts to ensnare unsuspecting victims are identified and explained? My Baptist preacher uncle tells us all the time that God speaks to him and reveals the true meaning of the scriptures to him. This of course always precedes some sort of preaching opportunity like a family get-together. Another pastor I know always "takes it to God" when the church board disagrees with him. Funny thing is that God always sides with him. The point I am trying to make, or rather the question I am trying to ask is... who's truth is the truth? If the Christian god speaks to his believers as some of them say he does, why is it there are so many different truths?
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 8:14:31 GMT -5
Annan wrote:
The point I am trying to make, or rather the question I am trying to ask is... who's truth is the truth? If the Christian god speaks to his believers as some of them say he does, why is it there are so many different truths?
I don't think there are "different truths" as you term it Annan. I think the means of evaluating what is true and what is false starts with reading the bible and ends with prayer. With some study, thought and meditation in between I think the truth should start to become clear and, I know that the lies, trickery, treachery and deception will become plainly evident.
Your question is certainly thought provoking because Christianity has been bastardized and misrepresented as much or more than any of the other major religions of the world. We focus on the 2x2's on this board but they are no different than a dozen or more other cults and countless sects who either misinterpret or misrepresent, add in or leave out and sometimes just outright lie about the bible and the principles and precepts of Christianity.
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Post by Gene on Dec 5, 2008 12:04:41 GMT -5
Annan wrote: The point I am trying to make, or rather the question I am trying to ask is... who's truth is the truth? If the Christian god speaks to his believers as some of them say he does, why is it there are so many different truths? I don't think there are "different truths" as you term it Annan. I think the means of evaluating what is true and what is false starts with reading the bible and ends with prayer. With some study, thought and meditation in between I think the truth should start to become clear and, I know that the lies, trickery, treachery and deception will become plainly evident. Your question is certainly thought provoking because Christianity has been bastardized and misrepresented as much or more than any of the other major religions of the world. We focus on the 2x2's on this board but they are no different than a dozen or more other cults and countless sects who either misinterpret or misrepresent, add in or leave out and sometimes just outright lie about the bible and the principles and precepts of Christianity. dowdy, do you hold any position the support of which does not include an accusation of lies by your adversary?
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 17:02:30 GMT -5
Gene Nelson wrote:
dowdy, do you hold any position the support of which does not include an accusation of lies by your adversary?
Lets see genie I can't quite figure out what prompted this...could it be your hatred of me, perhaps your efforts at "loving" all Christians have addled your brain or, most likely you are just off your meds. Whichever, I don't have an adversary in this thread and I haven't accused anyone of lying...perhaps you are confusing this with another thread in which I have an adversary who lies constantly. In this thread in my most recent post I simply responded to what I found an interesting and thought stimulating question which Annan posed.
It's okay. I know you don't like me and are anxious to engage me in some kind of battle. All I would ask is that next time you at least make sense and try to put a coherant line of thought together. I say this because I have always thought that despite your obvious bigotry and hatred of me, you are most likely a pretty decent guy basically and I hate to see you embarass yourself by spouting nonsensical jibber jabber. Take care...D.
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Post by stargazer on Dec 5, 2008 18:22:48 GMT -5
Would there be a hint of paranoia in the immediate foregoing post?
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 22:15:18 GMT -5
No there wouldn't. I have a handful of "fans" (from the word fanatics) who follow nearly every one of my posts with oppositive responses (although usually not as inane as this one...Gene Nelson is usually pretty measured and even toned, even intelligent though his bigotry and dislike are still evident).
As someone who apparently likes to pop off at the mouth without knowing all of the facts you might like to join them.
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Post by Gene on Dec 6, 2008 3:41:56 GMT -5
Gene Nelson wrote: dowdy, do you hold any position the support of which does not include an accusation of lies by your adversary? Lets see genie I can't quite figure out what prompted this...could it be your hatred of me, perhaps your efforts at "loving" all Christians have addled your brain or, most likely you are just off your meds. Whichever, I don't have an adversary in this thread and I haven't accused anyone of lying...perhaps you are confusing this with another thread in which I have an adversary who lies constantly. In this thread in my most recent post I simply responded to what I found an interesting and thought stimulating question which Annan posed. It's okay. I know you don't like me and are anxious to engage me in some kind of battle. All I would ask is that next time you at least make sense and try to put a coherant line of thought together. I say this because I have always thought that despite your obvious bigotry and hatred of me, you are most likely a pretty decent guy basically and I hate to see you embarass yourself by spouting nonsensical jibber jabber. Take care...D. and... ...I have always thought that despite your obvious bigotry and hatred of me, you are most likely a pretty decent guy basically... Sorry for being a bit oblique. I was reacting (or over-reacting) to the last several posts of yours that I had read on the "Christian Nation" thread, in which you repeatedly accuse Rational of lying. Then I read the post above where, in response to Annan's question about "multiple truths" you basically wrote that there is truth in Christianity (the Christianity to which you adhere, one would assume) and then there are lies. You alluded to that in both paragraphs. At first I had a chuckle, because it's so easy for us to believe that our "truth" is the "right truth," and that of others is something lesser. And Christians? Well! For a bunch of people who believe in the same god and saviour, they are certainly at each other's throats a lot! And other religions are as bad or worse -- look at the Shiites and Sunnis. But for you, it appears that differences of opinion are not just... well... opinions. You take it a step further and call it an outright lie. That's a strong word. And if one knew you ONLY from your interaction with Rational and from the post above, one could easily conclude (perhaps wrongly) that when you are up against a formidable intellectual adversary, when you have difficulty supporting your position and countering your adversary's position, or when you encounter those whose beliefs differ from your own, you resort to accusations of lying. "I'm right, and you're a liar!" No doubt you're a much more well-rounded person than that, but that's not coming through very well in the posts I have read. And now you've compounded it. You've added "hater" to your argumentation repertoire. ddowdy, I don't know you well enough to hate you. I don't even know you well enough to put you on ignore. I truly wonder (this is not an insult) if perhaps your ego is a bit on the fragile side. Not that mine is totally invulnerable. But I bathe it in fluoride every morning to give it a tough outer shell.
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ddowdy
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 6, 2008 9:14:05 GMT -5
Sorry for being a bit oblique. I was reacting (or over-reacting) to the last several posts of yours that I had read on the "Christian Nation" thread, in which you repeatedly accuse Rational of lying. Then I read the post above where, in response to Annan's question about "multiple truths" you basically wrote that there is truth in Christianity (the Christianity to which you adhere, one would assume) and then there are lies. You alluded to that in both paragraphs.
Yes gene I have pointed out when rational lies. I have also documented it. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable is not persuasive. I didn't say anything about the Christianity to which I adhere...fact is, I am not a very worthy Christian at all. Most of the 2x2's I am here to criticize lead exemplary lives in comparison to mine. However, it is undeniable that there is a basic guide that has been passed down through the ages for adherants to Christianity. That is what I said, that is what I stand by. If you choose to distort that then, like your friend rational, you will be lying.
And if one knew you ONLY from your interaction with Rational and from the post above, one could easily conclude (perhaps wrongly) that when you are up against a formidable intellectual adversary, when you have difficulty supporting your position and countering your adversary's position, or when you encounter those whose beliefs differ from your own, you resort to accusations of lying. "I'm right, and you're a liar!" No doubt you're a much more well-rounded person than that, but that's not coming through very well in the posts I have read.
First of all gene, rational is not an intellectually formidable opponent. He makes and continually changes the rules and parameters of debates to support arguments he cannot win by logic. The truth is that he has a little schtick here in which he plays the cool, logical psuedo-genius who constantly sticks it to all the so called right wing ultra-religious rubes. You seem to admire that (perhaps for your own reasons...you want to stick it to 'em as well). It feeds rational's ego to do this. I have called him on it. He is a liar. He is deceptive. He is intellectually dishonest. And I stand by those statements.
I do not accuse persons with whom I simply disagree of being liars as a matter of rote. Your little quotation, "I'm right and you're a liar!", is in fact, a lie. It is something you made up and inserted into your argument...perhaps you do that when up against in intellectually formidable opponent. I don't know whether or not I am a well rounded person or not. Others will have to judge that for themselves...I am not that introspective. Perhaps I used to be but, in truth I think you just threw that in so that you didn't come off as overly aggressive.
And now you've compounded it. You've added "hater" to your argumentation repertoire. ddowdy, I don't know you well enough to hate you. I don't even know you well enough to put you on ignore. I truly wonder (this is not an insult) if perhaps your ego is a bit on the fragile side. Not that mine is totally invulnerable. But I bathe it in fluoride every morning to give it a tough outer shell.
I didn't begin this gene, you did. I can only presume hate or, at least strong dislike from our previous interaction. Perhaps you should continuing tending your own ego and, I shall tend to mine. I don't take any of this personally. If I insult someone on here...it is merely a tactic. I think rational is vulnerable to this tactic...he seems to me like someone who was probably bullied successfully in his earlier days hence, his present damage. If I were to meet him personally I would probably intimidate him physically as well. Is this the right thing to do? Probably not. Would it work on you? Probably not. I have never tried to insult you. Do I maybe have a bit of a mean streak? Probably, but a lot of other people might tell you that I am a pretty thoughtful and nice guy. None of this is important and, I certainly don't owe you any insight into who I am. However, like I have said, up until now I only disagreed with you, I still respected you.
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 12:08:43 GMT -5
Yes gene I have pointed out when rational lies. I have also documented it. This, I might point out, is not the truth. In the discussion being referenced I posted quotes that pointed out views of the founding fathers that you did not agree with. Posting a quote that you disagree with does not constitute a lie and you posting opposing quotes documents nothing other than the fact that the founding fathers all had a wide range of beliefs. And by not defining christianity, or by making your claims ambiguous, you, like the Oracle of Delphi, can make any statement and then, once you have been shown to be inaccurate, explain you going for a different meaning. "If Croesus should cross the Halys river, a great empire will fall."
Poor Croesus. He should have asked "Which empire?"And like the other statements you have made, you can offer nothing to support your claims. As I have said before, you are changing the framework and I am only following your lead. I can point out examples that would show the error of your statement. Your armchair pseudo-analysis is so far off that it's laughable. Anonymity gives people courage but face to face ... that is a different story. You might feel that screaming and yelling, calling people liars, generally running around like an adolescent who could not get their way is intimidating but that is only because of your point of view.
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 12:11:17 GMT -5
If the Christian god speaks to his believers as some of them say he does, why is it there are so many different truths? You need to follow along. God only tells some people the correct meaning. Only those, as far as I can determine, who agree with the revelation given to others who post here. I am not one of them. There may still be hope for you.
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 11, 2008 3:47:54 GMT -5
Rational wrote:
Anonymity gives people courage but face to face ... that is a different story. You might feel that screaming and yelling, calling people liars, generally running around like an adolescent who could not get their way is intimidating but that is only because of your point of view.
I am using my real name on here...you aren't. Also, I would be more than happy to meet face to face in person. Depending on what you expect from me you may end up disappointed, then again you may not. I think you know exactly how I REALLY feel about you rat and hopefully one day we can meet. Can't promise you any goulash though...how about a stiff drink or two instead?
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