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Elders
Oct 3, 2008 6:11:02 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 3, 2008 6:11:02 GMT -5
Hello,
I am from Holland. At this moment we are speaking about the Elders, in our house meetings.
What i like to now is, how the elders are functioning in other country's. In Holland the elders just are leading the house meetings and not more then that. But i read in the bible, the letters of Paul,1 Tim, Titus 1 etc. that elders have much more responsibilities for the friends in their home meetings. I have read of a meeting between a head worker Edward Mooney's en elders, in Portland Oregon April 1960,And when you read this he has said that the tasks of the elders are just as Paul has described them , in our community. But at this moment every ting goes different, the worker are doing the work of the elders. That is not according the bible !
How do you think about this?
regards, pietje bel
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Elders
Oct 6, 2008 10:20:39 GMT -5
Post by deirdre on Oct 6, 2008 10:20:39 GMT -5
Noone out there who could answer this question?
My dad is elder too...he just leads the sundaymorning meeting. I remember for years back we discussed this with JP, one of the workers in Holland. JP felt the elder should find out for himself what was necessary in his role... but as you say, pietjebel: the workers already do this job... How is this in the UK? in Ireland? in other countries?
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Elders
Oct 6, 2008 14:28:57 GMT -5
Post by ex-teenager on Oct 6, 2008 14:28:57 GMT -5
I had this very discussion this week! The elders don't fill their job, probably because the workers do the things for them, visiting the sick etc. I think it would be far for effective if the elders looked after the church and the workers preached!
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Elders
Oct 10, 2008 5:41:39 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 10, 2008 5:41:39 GMT -5
Hello teenager 4 now Thank you for your respons. I was already prepared for your answer about the postion of the elders in other country's, but nevertheless it is disappointing news. Do you now of a report of an speech done by Howard Mooney, in Oregon USA in 1960. ( pretty old ) This headworker did speak to elders, oubout the position of the elders. When you read this then you know that in 1960 the situation in 1960 was almost according to the bibel. Between then and now there must have been someting gone completely wrong in our community. I think it is verry important to change this situation in what is should be. Is this subject in discussian at this moment in Ireland? Maby on the list of subjects 2008-2009 for sunday evening meetings, it is on ouers. You can read the report of the speech of Howard Mooney on our unofficial website www.netwerk2008.nl login name: welkom, password: netwerk2008 and is is to be found under "archief". I have much more about elders, but its in Dutch. by by for now. Piejebel.
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Elders
Oct 13, 2008 12:17:51 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 13, 2008 12:17:51 GMT -5
this subject seems not verry interesting. Are you all satisfied with the way it is?
pietjebel
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Elders
Oct 15, 2008 16:28:59 GMT -5
Post by september on Oct 15, 2008 16:28:59 GMT -5
this subject seems not verry interesting. Are you all satisfied with the way it is? pietjebel It's not that it's not interesting pj, it's just one one many problems with the fellowship. Where does one start to try to influence the fellowship in a more scriptural direction? The answer is, generally one cannot, to make any waves results in ex-communication. I have had an issue with the present interpretation and application of the elder/bishopric position in the fellowship for some time and during an unfortunate incident with the workers in the field, found the elders disinterested and the bishop decidedly biased against me, hurling undignified and unfounded abuse whilst holding that workers were infallible. No doubt he is the sort of elder that the workers like to have, but he's a very inadequate and potentially dangerous man to have in a position of seniority amongst the faithful or struggling.
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msew
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Elders
Oct 15, 2008 21:43:39 GMT -5
Post by msew on Oct 15, 2008 21:43:39 GMT -5
Nathan, what is being asked is why elders are not doing what the Bible says in a spiritual sense. We all know the workers hold all the control for sensoring people, assigning people to meetings (often miles from their homes and closer meetings), being judge and jury in disputes and discipline and generally holding the spiritual reigns about faith and doctrine. No one dares to oppose them.
The workers should be evangelists, NOT pastors. It's not practical or Biblical to be both at the same time. It doesn't work well but for the workers it keeps the control where they need it.
I understand all the roles so please don't just quote them and they say the workers are all of those things. They've taken on those duplicate roles but it should not be like that for the spiritual health of the people. It's not Biblical.
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Elders
Oct 16, 2008 6:56:20 GMT -5
Post by ronhall on Oct 16, 2008 6:56:20 GMT -5
Hello teenager 4 now Thank you for your respons. I was already prepared for your answer about the postion of the elders in other country's, but nevertheless it is disappointing news. Do you now of a report of an speech done by Howard Mooney, in Oregon USA in 1960. ( pretty old ) This headworker did speak to elders, oubout the position of the elders. When you read this then you know that in 1960 the situation in 1960 was almost according to the bibel. Between then and now there must have been someting gone completely wrong in our community. I think it is verry important to change this situation in what is should be. Is this subject in discussian at this moment in Ireland? Maby on the list of subjects 2008-2009 for sunday evening meetings, it is on ouers. You can read the report of the speech of Howard Mooney on our unofficial website www.netwerk2008.nl login name: welkom, password: netwerk2008 and is is to be found under "archief". I have much more about elders, but its in Dutch. by by for now. Piejebel. Piejebel, I downloaded the notes from Howard Mooney and I remember them. I was just in my teens when they were passed around. I remember the part about the elder saying "amen" after each prayer and testimony, because our elder had recently started doing that. I'm almost 100% sure these are the very same notes. Howard passed away quite awhile ago - don't remember when, since he was overseer in another state. He would often show up at our convention or special meeting. As little kids we named him the "Glad Worker" because he always spoke about being glad for something. Just a childhood memory. Thanks for providing the link. Never did I think I would ever come across those again and all the way from Holland! It' a small world. Thank you very much. P.S. Interestingly, in most meetings in the U.S. everyone is silent after each prayer or testimony except for some meetings in the area where Howard was overseer. The elder in our meeting does this, so maybe he has read those notes.
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BaPa
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Elders
Oct 16, 2008 11:34:12 GMT -5
Post by BaPa on Oct 16, 2008 11:34:12 GMT -5
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Elders
Oct 16, 2008 11:51:09 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 16, 2008 11:51:09 GMT -5
Hey Nathan! MOST of the worker today must have those same qualities as Paul had in his ministry to function more effectively as a minister of GospelCan you list those qualities that Paul had that MOST of the workers don't have? Paul worked at other jobs and made a point out of mentioning that fact. Paul gathered the elders and members of the church together to make church decisions. Paul openly acknowledged his shortcomings. Paul was always talking about living under the grace of God. Paul..... (feel free to add anything else here Nathan) Also, in regards to: ~~~ The apostle Paul had mention many of these qualities he had as an apostle or preacher of the Gospel. He was an evangelist, A PASTOR, a shepherd, a worker, a preacher, and an ambassador.Do you include the sister workers in this category??? Do you feel that sister workers also have the duty of acting as elders? Is this biblical, if so can you show me anywhere that a woman was appointed as an elder in any of the different churches? And... If there is no biblical basis for a woman to be an elder, and since there are sister workers..... Wouldn't that mean that a worker CAN NOT fill the duties of an elder? (male or female) Elders should be the ones running the local church just as was done in the days of Paul. Workers should certainly help them out of course, but shouldn't interfere with the local church. Do you feel that a worker has the right to tell an elder how to run his meetings Nathan? Is there a point where this matters? Did you feel that you had the right when you were a worker to tell an elder who had been professing for 50 years how he should run his meeting? Just curious. Scott
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shushy
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Elders
Oct 16, 2008 18:40:10 GMT -5
Post by shushy on Oct 16, 2008 18:40:10 GMT -5
One problem I see is that the 'Elders' are not set apart, prayed for. Anointed by the leaders/workers. Acts14:23, ..Barnabas appointed elders for them. 23Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
The apostles and elders worked together with the church. Elders do have an important function. One is that they are responsible to pray for the spiritual development for the people under the care of the local shepherd. 1 Tim 4:14.....7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Tim 5:17....... 17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
Elders can be anyone in a postion of spiritual authority..........Apostle/prophet/teacher/evangelist/pastor/ Deacons have a different function. Anyone in the body of christ can have any of the 12 gifts of the Spirit.
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shushy
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Elders
Oct 16, 2008 18:45:18 GMT -5
Post by shushy on Oct 16, 2008 18:45:18 GMT -5
1) The workers should be evangelists, NOT pastors. It's not practical or Biblical to be both at the same time. It doesn't work well but for the workers it keeps the control where they need it.
I think if anything the workers are shepherds. Some may be called as teachers. If any are true apostles/prophets/they are hiding.
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BaPa
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Posts: 480
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Elders
Oct 17, 2008 0:18:33 GMT -5
Post by BaPa on Oct 17, 2008 0:18:33 GMT -5
This is the second paragraph from the Howard Mooney notes:What does the underlined sentence mean? Is Howard meaning that the Workers = deity?
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shushy
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Elders
Oct 17, 2008 6:15:20 GMT -5
Post by shushy on Oct 17, 2008 6:15:20 GMT -5
~~~ The workers and the friends KNOW which workers are the Evangelists, Pastors, teachers, shepherds, preachers...
Prophets??? Shushy.... what is your interpretation or understanding the function of a prophet? then I can tell if I have seen or heard such prophets among the workers. I've not once heard our families call a worker anything but a worker Nathan. I'm not going to go into the prophetic stuff at the moment Nathan Ive done so in the past with you. Im too busy.
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Elders
Oct 17, 2008 16:14:48 GMT -5
Post by ronhall on Oct 17, 2008 16:14:48 GMT -5
This is the second paragraph from the Howard Mooney notes:What does the underlined sentence mean? Is Howard meaning that the Workers = deity? I would doubt he meant the workers are equal to the deity, but that they associate with the deity. It is similar to the fact that my cat has an association with me, but he is not equal (even though he acts like he thinks he's superior most times). The association is he belongs to me, since I bought him as a kitten. I've told him he was bought with a price, time and time again. He never listens, acknowledges or appreciates that. Perhaps God views me the same way! :>)
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shushy
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Elders
Oct 19, 2008 6:28:05 GMT -5
Post by shushy on Oct 19, 2008 6:28:05 GMT -5
Even so nathan, they are completely different to anointed men and women of God I have met outside of meetings. For one thing they seem stifled, oppressed, lacking in freedom of speach, joy, very controlled. I dont want to sound mean spirited Im genuinely concerned for them.
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Elders
Oct 19, 2008 6:38:42 GMT -5
Post by september on Oct 19, 2008 6:38:42 GMT -5
~~~ The workers and the friends KNOW which workers are the Evangelists, Pastors, teachers, shepherds, preachers... Prophets??? Shushy.... what is your interpretation or understanding the function of a prophet? then I can tell if I have seen or heard such prophets among the workers. I've not once heard our families call a worker anything but a worker Nathan. I'm not going to go into the prophetic stuff at the moment Nathan Ive done so in the past with you. Im too busy. Few workers could claim to be anything other than preachers. There is little or no pastoral care, there is little or no teaching (how can they teach that which they cannot themselves understand?), few evangelise and their shepherding skills are akin to that of an untrained and frustrated sheepdog. As for the elders in the church, I can only think of one elder that has taken someone who was struggling aside and asking what was the matter and how could he help. Most just sit complacently in the corner conducting the proceedings in the meeting. They are simply the person to whom Christmas meeting lists are given and if not already garnered through the thriving grapevine of gossip, news or information regarding time and location of the mission or funeral of an obscure departed friend.
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Elders
Oct 19, 2008 7:11:21 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 19, 2008 7:11:21 GMT -5
Nathan9~~~ The elders in USA visit the elderly, the sick, helping the friends in their meetings, inviting their neighbors to the meetings, talking to their friends about Jesus, helping the needy. Take the needy friends and sometimes non-2x2 needy in their homes to help them out.
Some of the church elders are trusted with the friends' trust funds. They are teachers, feeders, and as pastors in their home churches meetings.
I have never met an elder this way in Holland !
shushy: 1) The workers should be evangelists, NOT pastors. It's not practical or Biblical to be both at the same time. It doesn't work well but for the workers it keeps the control where they need it.
I agree: I think it is impossible to do both in a richt and complete way. But more important is that it isn't their task to do both. Paul is verry clear in this. Bringing the gospel is an 24 hour/day job. To be an elder, it is necessary to be nearby the friends and to now them well. The workers are not close enough and don't now the friends because thy are not talking to them in a open way. The answers you get about serieus questions concerning the way everthing goes, is speaking in riddles, never straight. Why are do the workers act this way? , the answer is given by sushy. They like to have control ! Why? They use their position in an unbiblical way, is it the power over the friends that they like i guess.
In Pauls vieuw a house communitie can be selfsupporting with ( a ) good elder(s) and of course with the help of al the friends in that communitie. The elder can ask the friends to help him with some tasks. ( See also The acts 14 :23 it says elderS, not just one !)
so far for now,
pietje bel
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Elders
Oct 19, 2008 10:01:28 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 19, 2008 10:01:28 GMT -5
Nathan, what is being asked is why elders are not doing what the Bible says in a spiritual sense. We all know the workers hold all the control for sensoring people, assigning people to meetings (often miles from their homes and closer meetings), being judge and jury in disputes and discipline and generally holding the spiritual reigns about faith and doctrine. No one dares to oppose them.
The workers should be evangelists, NOT pastors. It's not practical or Biblical to be both at the same time. It doesn't work well but for the workers it keeps the control where they need it.
I understand all the roles so please don't just quote them and they say the workers are all of those things. They've taken on those duplicate roles but it should not be like that for the spiritual health of the people. It's not Biblical.
msew I feel the same !
pietje bel
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shushy
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Elders
Oct 19, 2008 22:22:46 GMT -5
Post by shushy on Oct 19, 2008 22:22:46 GMT -5
Nathan, what is being asked is why elders are not doing what the Bible says in a spiritual sense. We all know the workers hold all the control for sensoring people, assigning people to meetings (often miles from their homes and closer meetings), being judge and jury in disputes and discipline and generally holding the spiritual reigns about faith and doctrine. No one dares to oppose them. 1) The workers should be evangelists, NOT pastors. It's not practical or Biblical to be both at the same time. It doesn't work well but for the workers it keeps the control where they need it. ~~~ The apostle Paul had mention many of these qualities he had as an apostle or preacher of the Gospel. He was an evangelist, A PASTOR, a shepherd, a worker, a preacher, and an ambassador.2) I understand all the roles so please don't just quote them and they say the workers are all of those things. They've taken on those duplicate roles but it should not be like that for the spiritual health of the people. It's not Biblical. ~~~ It is biblical. MOST of the worker today must have those same qualities as Paul had in his ministry to function more effectively as a minister of Gospel.Nathan, you will see here number 1. is your quote not mine..I didnt think I had written that. somehow in all the conversing people think I did. I dont agree with it and said so in another post. And any person who is called ot be an apostle can function in all of the 5 fold ministry, they have ot be able too.
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Elders
Oct 21, 2008 5:42:40 GMT -5
Post by pietjebel on Oct 21, 2008 5:42:40 GMT -5
reply 24, Nathan 9.
When i read the reply's of the others, then i think that some have an other feeling then you, about how workers and elders act in the USA. I also see that you are sometimes are speaking in riddles like workers usely do, not answering the questions. So manytimes a discussian is going in cirkels.
But when everithing is all right, can you explain why there are so many anti websites and books?
As long as we refuse to see wat is wrong, there will be no change at all. See Revelation 2 and 3, "you are doing many things good, But ! There is a but. Jezus said change the wrong things." Our community needs to change !
Pietje bel.
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Elders
Oct 21, 2008 9:57:43 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 21, 2008 9:57:43 GMT -5
Hey Nathan! ~~~ I don't think the workers and the friends say everything is all right. No church is perfect, all have their own problems, issues, false teachings are creeping in, tradition of men to contend with, etc... Have you ever heard the saying that 'the way is perfect but the people aren't'? Do feel that the 'way' refers to the truth fellowship (church)? If not, what do you feel it refers to? Thanks, Scott
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Elders
Oct 21, 2008 14:44:44 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 21, 2008 14:44:44 GMT -5
2) Do feel that the 'way' refers to the truth fellowship (church)?~~~ The way refers to Jesus.... He is the way to Salvation and the truth from God.Thanks for your answer! Scott
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Elders
Oct 25, 2008 10:46:04 GMT -5
Post by toffeecrumble on Oct 25, 2008 10:46:04 GMT -5
In these days of equality elders are redundant. Who are they supposed to be organising, controling, etc? Members of 2x2 are supposed to be "old enough to understand" what they commit to.
The workers supervise, monitor, interfere enough and too much.
Recently someoone stated that elders and their wives were "ïnterfering, trafficwarden style". They said that most people ignore them apart from their role of introducing the first hymn.
What, in a modern context, do you suppose the "elder"should be doing? Most "elders" are young men who follow money-making careers and are not the caring, nurturing kind. How could they perform the role of a pastor? They don't know the first thing about it.
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Elders
Oct 25, 2008 17:23:25 GMT -5
Post by september on Oct 25, 2008 17:23:25 GMT -5
In these days of equality elders are redundant. Who are they supposed to be organising, controling, etc? Members of 2x2 are supposed to be "old enough to understand" what they commit to. The workers supervise, monitor, interfere enough and too much. Recently someoone stated that elders and their wives were "ïnterfering, trafficwarden style". They said that most people ignore them apart from their role of introducing the first hymn. What, in a modern context, do you suppose the "elder"should be doing? Most "elders" are young men who follow money-making careers and are not the caring, nurturing kind. How could they perform the role of a pastor? They don't know the first thing about it. So don't you think that at some point the fellowship should acknowledge the need for education at some level? We are told that the apostles and the seventy weren't trained in theological matters but they had the advantage of having the greatest teacher at their side: Jesus. Of course we have that too, provided we are willing and provided we are patient and wait upon his instruction and guidance but sometimes events move faster and a little training which might just be learning how to lend a listening and non-judgemental ear (the advice through Spiritual channels will follow) may avert many of the misunderstandings that inevitably happen and allow God to work through whomever he chooses whether workers, elders or a fellow pilgrim.
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Elders
Nov 7, 2008 6:22:49 GMT -5
Post by melissa on Nov 7, 2008 6:22:49 GMT -5
That makes sound sense.
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Elders
Apr 14, 2009 0:04:31 GMT -5
Post by nastysteve on Apr 14, 2009 0:04:31 GMT -5
Hi I'm brand new to this group. I was B&R and professed from when I was 18 until I turned 26. I live in Canada and just wanted to add that I remember one exceptional elder and his wife. He is passed on now.
Rolland and Lillian would invite my wife and I over to discuss anything we might want to talk about. I assume the rest of the meeting had the same privilege but we never heard about their visits.
When we were told by the workers that we now were going to have a Wed. night meeting in our home, ( I broke out in a terrified cold sweat ) Rolland showed up at our door with 10 wooden folding chairs. No one else ever knew that happened either.
I remember when new hymn books came out with unfamiliar hymns for us young folks they had a special young persons night where we could practice singing them.
Lillian referred to her role as his "helpmate" They were very inspirational. When I read the above discussion of biblical elders Rolland's memory kept popping into my mind.
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Elders
Apr 14, 2009 0:15:57 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Apr 14, 2009 0:15:57 GMT -5
Hi there and welcome nastysteve! Rolland and Lillian sound like what an elder and wife are supposed to be like. I have some good memories of some special elders in the meetings I attended. One of which was my dad. Having an elder that takes his role seriously makes a big difference in the spirit of a meeting that is for sure!! Scott
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