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Post by Geoff on Dec 8, 2008 11:43:43 GMT -5
The Times may have changed but the Sunday Post has not. On a more serious note, if the practices and beliefs of a group change over time, it becomes very important to document the history of the group in order to counter denial, plausible deniability, deceit, misunderstandings, untruths, yes even lies, if that group does not itself document what it believes, nor takes responsibility for the adverse effects their "time changing beliefs" may have on their following. R: Can you expand on that a bit? Its not clear (to me) why you think this documentation important, nor to whom its important.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 11:54:25 GMT -5
Yes Geoff, because I constantly get frustrated over the lack of recognition and denials even of beliefs and practices in the past which have had adverse and in some cases severe effects on the lives of followers, who followed these beliefs as if they were gospel.
The documentation of such things (yes even The Sunday Post issue) sets in stone these things DID happen. Not that long ago one senior sister worker who conceded the early beginnings of this way told me that this way is different from all other ways because all the rest have changed over time, whilst this way has remained the same. Seems like she would benefit from some historical research ?
The truth is, this way is just another way of Christianity, with similar changes in beliefs and practices over time, similar problems, divisions and so on, contrary to what even current workers and some friends would like to believe.
If it's down in black and white then it can't be denied, if it changes occur. It's good for promoting honesty and openness.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 8, 2008 16:01:11 GMT -5
I see now what you mean, R. But I don't totally agree. I do agree that a written historical account can be of benefit in documenting how things were, so that it can't so easily be changed by memory fade, desire for to have not been that way and all manner of human feeling.
But that only any good for those who subscribe to the accuracy of the history. There are histories available now, but their accounts are disputed by some and verified by others. There isn't agreement on their veracity. So more important perhaps than the written acosweet thing is getting agreement?
A written account that is not accepted isn't really much good. It doesn't "set in stone" for those that won't accept it.
Its not true that being "dowen in black and white" makes a thing undeniable. (unfortunately). Even the Bible (down in black and white) is denied by many. People claim the earth is flat, that the Holocaust didn't happen, that Jesus didn't exist etc. Having a written account is ony convincing to those that are willing to be convinced by it.
And there are wrong accounts that have many convinced. Did you ever accept that story about Moroni showing Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates? (millions do). Its in black and white, but that doesn't make it true.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 16:37:39 GMT -5
Point taken Geoff. Some people deny the occurrence of the Holocaust. However, most people who deny recorded history have their own agenda, or are in posession of facts or information which suggest alternative course of events.
The absence of recorded history makes it easy for people like the sister worker to make false claims which can not only go unchallenged, but be subject to belief. It can be a breeding ground for ignorance and denial. The presence of recorded facts makes it difficult to promote false beliefs about the system. This is all the more important because many want to believe it is the only way, it has never changed, is not organised and so on. If there is no recorded history, we have a mystery and workers love that because it can be a useful tool to make them different from all other ways.
Better to have history, which is open to scrutiny, than to promote fantasy.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 8, 2008 16:50:16 GMT -5
I'm not against recording history, in fact for it, just pointing out that the record won't affect some people.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 18:21:19 GMT -5
Thanks Geoff, I accept that. On another note, recorded history shows us that there were workers and friends in Scotland long before William Irvine (see the history thread on the main board).
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Post by toffeecrumble on Dec 9, 2008 1:55:12 GMT -5
Not belonging to 2x2 they weren't.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 9, 2008 2:39:27 GMT -5
Not belonging to 2x2 they weren't. Do you have evidence that they were not?
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Post by toffeecrumble on Dec 10, 2008 12:47:57 GMT -5
They could not be 2x2s since the 2x2s were founded by William Irvine see Cherie's History on her website. What recorded history records evidence of a group known as 2x2 before Irvine?
Faith mission, yes, who else?
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Post by irvinegrey on Dec 10, 2008 14:14:59 GMT -5
Thanks Geoff for your question on selection. It is my greatest wish that professing folk will volunteer to talk with me in an open and frank fashion. Naturally I may have to approach some of the professing folk I know to see if I can get the ball rolling.
Since the remit of my research is to cover the history, theology and the sociology of the movement I would have thought that this offers a platform for professing folk to participate and thereby that my research gives an accurate and fair picture of the movement.
I want folk from every part, not only Ireland and the UK. Many may feel that they cannot use the TMB but would like to contact me personally and that would be fantastic. I can be contacted on irvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk and you can be assured of complete confidentiality. Thanks again for the question Geoff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 14:18:50 GMT -5
Toffeecrumble, you may be aware that prior to joining the Faith Mission that William Irvine was manager of a coal mine ? It was during these days that he discovered an account of the 17th century workers inscribed on a large sheet of iron pyrites. That coal mine had been fashioned out of a cave formerly used by these workers as a place of worship. It was from these "Deep cave inscriptions" that Irvine was convicted and sought to follow a similar lifestyle. He joined the Faith Mission, thinking they were the modern day way of the persecuted Covenanting workers, but soon found them lacking in many ways. He then decided to follow the Deep Cave Inscriptions using Matthew 10 as a format to sell to his peers. The reason for this was to disassociate himself with any Presbyterian leanings.
Truly he found the way. His carbide lamp enlightened him on his spiritual pathway.
Were it not for that amazing sheet of iron pyrites we would not have what we have today.
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Post by irvinegrey on Dec 11, 2008 14:35:06 GMT -5
Ram that sounds like a fanciful story. I am beginning to see parallels with Joseph Smith here! It seems in his Faith Mission days in Ireland that William Irvine preached the gospel of Christ's redeeming grace as did his fellow workers.
Despite his 'Living Witness' theory I understand that William never denied his early conversion as the start of his walk in the Christian life.
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Post by lin on Dec 11, 2008 14:44:30 GMT -5
that's true Irvinegrey. I've talked to some of those early saints and workers. It's hard to say just how coherent his thinking was at times.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 18:48:33 GMT -5
Irvinegrey, please ignore the above post I made. I am dealing with an alternative theory about the grand master which I made up....I mean only recently discovered. A few of us are enjoying a little piece of "entertainment." Sorry for the confusion.
Perhaps you are aware that the miners called iron pyrites "Fool's Gold ?"
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Post by september on Dec 12, 2008 6:08:40 GMT -5
It's alright ram, I got your drift and was enjoying it! Please continue to share your findings with us.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 6:36:45 GMT -5
Thanks Sept. I think we'll call it "Alternative Truth" since we are dealing with "alternative 2x2ism," both real and imagined ?
In all sincerity, the workers could take a leaf or two out of the books of Messrs Blackadder & Co. A few years back I co-wrote a book about the Bass Rock and wrote up a bit about these early workers. About 40 of them were imprisoned on the Bass in quite terrible conditions.
Now you don't know whether I am dealing in fact or fantasy ?
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Post by Geoff on Dec 12, 2008 6:54:08 GMT -5
Contrary to what RAM has asserted, it was not from the books of Messrs Blackadder that WI et al took their inspiration, but from another of those slithery creatures, Messrs M Python and sons. Monty, as he was more commonly known, was one to often display behaviour that others modelled themselves on. In particular, their ministry of silly walks became a staple of the community. Miners found this hard to obey. The need to walk stiff legged, stiff arms swinging fully to and fro was difficult for those who'd spent their days crounched at the Pyrites face. The Gold extracted from the Pyrites was not able to fool anyone, it gleamed in a way that the emperors clothes never could match. But hunched though they were, burdened as they were, laying down their heavy burden, oh weary cinesick sole (there were few cobblers in those parts of Kilsyth, let alone picture houses), they tried to emulate the Goosestepping of the Ministry as best they could.
Monty's cousin John (thats John Cheese, a dairy worker) had a part time job in a hotel as assistant manager. The Towers Hotel was not quite all it seemed. (neither was the Pyrites seam). It had its Fawlts (or is that faults). Fortunately immigrant help in the form of Spanish workers can to save the day (and the souls) of all involved.
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Post by irvinegrey on May 24, 2010 16:19:54 GMT -5
There are plenty of exs very willing to tell me their side of the 2x2 movement but I need balance. It would be great to hear from existing members of the movement who would be will to share their experiences. I can be contacted privately on irvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk. Please don't all rush forward at once!
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Post by september on May 27, 2010 9:36:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure you'll have a response from any current members Irvine. Your best hope is to turn up to convention and show an interest in the fellowship but without mentioning websites, the history and your thesis. And if they do talk and then subsequently hear of your thesis, you'll be branded as evil as Doug Parker and Paddy Roberts. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!
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Post by irvinegrey on May 29, 2010 13:45:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice but the purpose of my research is to be objective and I am not approaching this with a preconceived agenda. I want my research to be fair and accurate so that the finished work can be judged on its merits. For this reason it is important that those I speak with know what I am doing and the ethics of the university demand that I am open and honest at all times as to the purpose of my interest. Given the press coverage that this project has had already I think my activties are well known by this stage.
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Post by september on May 29, 2010 19:26:04 GMT -5
I appreciate that you want to be honest and open about your project but that's exactly what shuts doors. You still may want to show up at convention and see if anyone cares to talk to you. I'd say there is a fair chance that many won't have heard of your project simply because it won't interest them in the same way as Doug Parker and Paddy Roberts don't interest them and I'm guessing there are a good number of them that haven't heard of their writings. It's tough luck for you because although I can see it would be an interesting study, current members will close ranks and clam up when any outsider, regardless of an association with the meetings, asks questions for "nefarious" purposes.
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