Post by bryanfromak on Sept 14, 2009 16:48:53 GMT -5
As many of you know, I have concerns with many of the teachings and beliefs that are upheld and promoted within the 2x2 fellowship. That being said, I hold no ill will towards any of the Friends and Workers. Many in the fellowship are my family and friends, whom I love and respect, and wish nothing but the best for them.
A few weeks ago I saw a link posted on the TMB to Pastor Ken's article on the fellowship, and after reading it I sent him an email response. Today he replied and I feel the need respond to his comments in this thread in hopes others will add their thoughts so that he may have "a deeper understanding" of the 2x2 fellowship.
Here's my email to him from a few weeks ago
Below is his response from today and my reply to his response.
As a former member of the 2x2s, who spend 25 years in the church, I find your article on the no name fellowship to be extremely misleading. I really don\'t know where to start in response, so I\'ll just pick out just a few of your statements that I find the most absurd.
1. To place the church in the same breath as the Peoples\' Temple and Branch Davidians, is extremely offensive and goes to show your ignorance of the group and its teachings.
Any cult that practices mind control runs the risk of a "People's Temple" event, and that's what I was saying. In Kathy Lewis' book concerning 2x2's -- which many former cult members consider to be an authoritative work -- she goes into detail concerning the mind control issue. I would say that to NOT sound the alarm of such a possibility would be the greater offense, especially in situations where Workers have a great deal of latitude without a lot of oversight.
Anyone who suggest a "People's Temple" like event is possible in the fellowship has clearly never been in the fellowship or has a unrealistic distorted view of the fellowship and its members.
An authoritative work would be a stretch. Kathy takes a very hard line with the fellowship, which is reflected in her book. It's clear now to me much of your "research" came from Mrs. Lewis and her book, which in turn gave you a very narrow perspective to work from when you decided to write an article on the fellowship.
2. To suggest group operates primarily in rural or low-income areas is flat out false.
Really? Please provide me with locations and statistics to support that. My sources are clear that most efforts are in rural communities, and that most conventions are on farms. But I would value any information you could provide since -- as you know -- 2x2's don't exactly publish their locations.
You are the one who made the initial assertion regarding rural or low-income areas, therefore it's your responsibility to back up such claims with "locations and statistics".
Yes most conventions are on farms because that's where the land is to hold a few thousand people over a 4 day period. It's a logical fallacy to connect convention locations, that require a large amount of space/area, to the efforts and outreach of the 2x2 ministry.
3. To suggest the friends are not permitted to discuss matters of faith with outsiders is a lie.
"Lie" is a pretty strong word, and frankly it's a pretty offensive way to address your concerns to me. I can only know what I am told by very reliable sources such as Kathy Lewis. Again, I would have to say that my sources disagree with you. They are pretty clear that early discussions are kept very superficial, left mostly to the Workers, until the outsiders have been exposed to the Workers' teachings and observed for some time.
Yes it is a pretty strong word, and I stand by that pretty strong word no matter how offensive you find it. I've talked to many professing people about faith, before and after I left the church. It's just simply not the case.
4. The second meeting on Sunday (\"Sunday evening meeting\" as you call it) is not always a gospel meeting. Many places have the meeting in the home, just like Sunday morning meeting.
Okay. Would you consider this a major point? Is this always true? Would you say that my description of these meetings is so far off as to mislead readers as to the nature of the cult?
It's a point to show you know not what you speak.
5. Convention hymns, messages and meals are not carefully scripted. Another misleading statement.
Really? Is this your personal experience or can you honestly say it's true in the vast majority of Conventions? I ask this because all of my sources agree that this time is very carefully planned by the Head Workers. I would be very interested, however, in knowing the extent of your own experience and expertise with 2x2's, as it could be helpful in a deeper understanding of the cult.
Yes it is my personal experience and I challenge you to ask this question of current professing members. And when you do ask about scripted meals and such, please take note if the people you're asking start laughing out loud at the absurdity of your question.
Of course there is someone who decides what to make for meals based what ingredients are available, but to call it scripted? Foolishness.
6. Suggesting the workers tell members who to marry is a lie. There are no arranged marriages in the church.
Once again I must ask if this is your own experience or if you have deep knowledge of this fact. I ask this because others have had quite a different experience. When you say, "There are no arranged marriages in the church," do you actually mean not a single one? In that case, you would have to be saying that my sources have lied. If you don't mean this, then your statment is a false attack on me.
My experience and deep knowledge. Of course I'm sure you could find one single case where a worker told person A, "You Will Marry Person B"... but to suggest this exception (providing there is one) is the norm is externally misleading.
Now my guess is you're referring to a passage on page 33 of Kathy's book where she states, The workers allow individual freedom in decisions regarding school (as long as it is secular), who to marry (as long as he or she is professing), where to live (must be close to meetings), occupation (within their guidelines), and who to socialize with (as long as they are professing).
It's one thing to promote a belief that professing people should choose another professing person as a spouse, but to suggest that workers tell members who to marry is just not reality.
7. Suggesting the internet is strictly prohibited is another lie.
Pretty much the same as my reply to #6. You use the word "lie" pretty easily and liberally, and seem to be pretty defensive of the 2x2's mind control techniques as clearly described by Kathy Lewis and others.
Let me reiterate - Suggesting the internet is strictly prohibited is a LIE.
Go look online if you don't believe me. Look at how many professing kids are on myspace and facebook. Go look at how many workers have blogs and facebook accounts. Good Grief Ken, did you even bother to any research when writing your article?
I would not be surprised if you\'ve never been to a meeting after reading your article. Your absurd inaccuracies are stunning.
Yes, you are right. Though I tried, I would have had to lie to attend a meeting -- something I'm not willing to do. I had to be content with reading respected books by former 2x2 writers, and email discussions with former members of the cult. Let me go further and say that if I had written a piece about Baptists, for example, I would have had to make a number of generalizations that might not be the experience of people attending a specific Baptist church; however, I would have attempted -- as I did in the 2x2 piece -- to reflect an overview that generally describes what Baptists are about. That there are 20-plus Baptist denominations would make it hard to reflect the truth as it is experienced inside every Baptist congregation, even though Baptists publish their doctrines and distinctives in texts and on the Internet for the public to see. I have no doubt someone would be offended, but that wouldn't make the generalizations "lies."
The fact is that the 2x2's are very secretive, have an unknown number of Workers and local meetings, and have no officially published (to the public) doctrine, practices, etc. So getting accurate information about them is harder than finding out about Baptists. You need only to Google one of the many names used for the cult to find out how much conflicting information there is. As I said, I wasn't willing to lie to anyone and go "undercover" to get information, so I was left with trusting respected sources and documents I was able to obtain.
Thanks for your views.
It sounds like you're attempting to justify your wildly inaccurate generalizations because you felt information was hard to find.
Shame on you.
A few weeks ago I saw a link posted on the TMB to Pastor Ken's article on the fellowship, and after reading it I sent him an email response. Today he replied and I feel the need respond to his comments in this thread in hopes others will add their thoughts so that he may have "a deeper understanding" of the 2x2 fellowship.
Here's my email to him from a few weeks ago
As a former member of the 2x2s, who spend 25 years in the church, I find your article on the no name fellowship to be extremely misleading. I really don't know where to start in response, so I'll just pick out just a few of your statements that I find the most absurd.
1. To place the church in the same breath as the Peoples' Temple and Branch Davidians, is extremely offensive and goes to show your ignorance of the group and its teachings.
2. To suggest group operates primarily in rural or low-income areas is flat out false.
3. To suggest the friends are not permitted to discuss matters of faith with outsiders is a lie.
4. The second meeting on Sunday ("Sunday evening meeting" as you call it) is not always a gospel meeting. Many places have the meeting in the home, just like Sunday morning meeting.
5. Convention hymns, messages and meals are not carefully scripted. Another misleading statement.
6. Suggesting the workers tell members who to marry is a lie. There are no arranged marriages in the church.
7. Suggesting the internet is strictly prohibited is another lie.
I would not be surprised if you've never been to a meeting after reading your article. Your absurd inaccuracies are stunning.
Below is his response from today and my reply to his response.
As a former member of the 2x2s, who spend 25 years in the church, I find your article on the no name fellowship to be extremely misleading. I really don\'t know where to start in response, so I\'ll just pick out just a few of your statements that I find the most absurd.
1. To place the church in the same breath as the Peoples\' Temple and Branch Davidians, is extremely offensive and goes to show your ignorance of the group and its teachings.
Any cult that practices mind control runs the risk of a "People's Temple" event, and that's what I was saying. In Kathy Lewis' book concerning 2x2's -- which many former cult members consider to be an authoritative work -- she goes into detail concerning the mind control issue. I would say that to NOT sound the alarm of such a possibility would be the greater offense, especially in situations where Workers have a great deal of latitude without a lot of oversight.
Anyone who suggest a "People's Temple" like event is possible in the fellowship has clearly never been in the fellowship or has a unrealistic distorted view of the fellowship and its members.
An authoritative work would be a stretch. Kathy takes a very hard line with the fellowship, which is reflected in her book. It's clear now to me much of your "research" came from Mrs. Lewis and her book, which in turn gave you a very narrow perspective to work from when you decided to write an article on the fellowship.
2. To suggest group operates primarily in rural or low-income areas is flat out false.
Really? Please provide me with locations and statistics to support that. My sources are clear that most efforts are in rural communities, and that most conventions are on farms. But I would value any information you could provide since -- as you know -- 2x2's don't exactly publish their locations.
You are the one who made the initial assertion regarding rural or low-income areas, therefore it's your responsibility to back up such claims with "locations and statistics".
Yes most conventions are on farms because that's where the land is to hold a few thousand people over a 4 day period. It's a logical fallacy to connect convention locations, that require a large amount of space/area, to the efforts and outreach of the 2x2 ministry.
3. To suggest the friends are not permitted to discuss matters of faith with outsiders is a lie.
"Lie" is a pretty strong word, and frankly it's a pretty offensive way to address your concerns to me. I can only know what I am told by very reliable sources such as Kathy Lewis. Again, I would have to say that my sources disagree with you. They are pretty clear that early discussions are kept very superficial, left mostly to the Workers, until the outsiders have been exposed to the Workers' teachings and observed for some time.
Yes it is a pretty strong word, and I stand by that pretty strong word no matter how offensive you find it. I've talked to many professing people about faith, before and after I left the church. It's just simply not the case.
4. The second meeting on Sunday (\"Sunday evening meeting\" as you call it) is not always a gospel meeting. Many places have the meeting in the home, just like Sunday morning meeting.
Okay. Would you consider this a major point? Is this always true? Would you say that my description of these meetings is so far off as to mislead readers as to the nature of the cult?
It's a point to show you know not what you speak.
5. Convention hymns, messages and meals are not carefully scripted. Another misleading statement.
Really? Is this your personal experience or can you honestly say it's true in the vast majority of Conventions? I ask this because all of my sources agree that this time is very carefully planned by the Head Workers. I would be very interested, however, in knowing the extent of your own experience and expertise with 2x2's, as it could be helpful in a deeper understanding of the cult.
Yes it is my personal experience and I challenge you to ask this question of current professing members. And when you do ask about scripted meals and such, please take note if the people you're asking start laughing out loud at the absurdity of your question.
Of course there is someone who decides what to make for meals based what ingredients are available, but to call it scripted? Foolishness.
6. Suggesting the workers tell members who to marry is a lie. There are no arranged marriages in the church.
Once again I must ask if this is your own experience or if you have deep knowledge of this fact. I ask this because others have had quite a different experience. When you say, "There are no arranged marriages in the church," do you actually mean not a single one? In that case, you would have to be saying that my sources have lied. If you don't mean this, then your statment is a false attack on me.
My experience and deep knowledge. Of course I'm sure you could find one single case where a worker told person A, "You Will Marry Person B"... but to suggest this exception (providing there is one) is the norm is externally misleading.
Now my guess is you're referring to a passage on page 33 of Kathy's book where she states, The workers allow individual freedom in decisions regarding school (as long as it is secular), who to marry (as long as he or she is professing), where to live (must be close to meetings), occupation (within their guidelines), and who to socialize with (as long as they are professing).
It's one thing to promote a belief that professing people should choose another professing person as a spouse, but to suggest that workers tell members who to marry is just not reality.
7. Suggesting the internet is strictly prohibited is another lie.
Pretty much the same as my reply to #6. You use the word "lie" pretty easily and liberally, and seem to be pretty defensive of the 2x2's mind control techniques as clearly described by Kathy Lewis and others.
Let me reiterate - Suggesting the internet is strictly prohibited is a LIE.
Go look online if you don't believe me. Look at how many professing kids are on myspace and facebook. Go look at how many workers have blogs and facebook accounts. Good Grief Ken, did you even bother to any research when writing your article?
I would not be surprised if you\'ve never been to a meeting after reading your article. Your absurd inaccuracies are stunning.
Yes, you are right. Though I tried, I would have had to lie to attend a meeting -- something I'm not willing to do. I had to be content with reading respected books by former 2x2 writers, and email discussions with former members of the cult. Let me go further and say that if I had written a piece about Baptists, for example, I would have had to make a number of generalizations that might not be the experience of people attending a specific Baptist church; however, I would have attempted -- as I did in the 2x2 piece -- to reflect an overview that generally describes what Baptists are about. That there are 20-plus Baptist denominations would make it hard to reflect the truth as it is experienced inside every Baptist congregation, even though Baptists publish their doctrines and distinctives in texts and on the Internet for the public to see. I have no doubt someone would be offended, but that wouldn't make the generalizations "lies."
The fact is that the 2x2's are very secretive, have an unknown number of Workers and local meetings, and have no officially published (to the public) doctrine, practices, etc. So getting accurate information about them is harder than finding out about Baptists. You need only to Google one of the many names used for the cult to find out how much conflicting information there is. As I said, I wasn't willing to lie to anyone and go "undercover" to get information, so I was left with trusting respected sources and documents I was able to obtain.
Thanks for your views.
It sounds like you're attempting to justify your wildly inaccurate generalizations because you felt information was hard to find.
Shame on you.