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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 8:01:43 GMT -5
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Post by freespirit on Apr 7, 2010 8:10:14 GMT -5
That made me LOL, Bert. I think I'd like to ditch all the buildings and go hiking up a mountain to meditate.
fs
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 8:14:09 GMT -5
Actually FS, you can meditate in the quietness of your own bedroom. Mountains can distract.
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Post by Annan on Apr 7, 2010 8:19:31 GMT -5
Yes, I can see how the beauty of a mountain could be distracting. The best part of my day is standing on my back porch every morning greeting the day. I talk to the sun, the clouds, the drops of dew, the twittering birds, the swaying trees, the wind... I have been known to shout my thanks for the glory of this world. Yep... definitely distracting when I can hide in my bedroom. ;D
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Post by jason on Apr 7, 2010 8:21:47 GMT -5
Yes, I can see how the beauty of a mountain could be distracting. The best part of my day is standing on my back porch every morning greeting the day. I talk to the sun, the clouds, the drops of dew, the twittering birds, the swaying trees, the wind... I have been known to shout my thanks for the glory of this world. Yep... definitely distracting when I can hide in my bedroom. ;D As a self-declared atheist, who exactly are you thanking?
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Post by Annan on Apr 7, 2010 8:27:05 GMT -5
Life itself. To me, being an Atheist means I do not believe in or give homage to diety. It doesn't mean I don't believe there is an underlying force or cause to all existance.
I read a quote recently that said, Magick is the a tool of change of the tides that keep the world alive.
I believe my thankfulness and joy and awe all add to the tides of life and therefore influence the world at large.
Gotta go to the dentist, be back later.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 7, 2010 8:41:45 GMT -5
[/img][/quote] Gosh, Bert. So that makes the2 2x2 slightly better than those marble and mahogany people, doesn't it.
Still built by hands, though...so if it's sin, it's still sin.
Sure am glad I went to convention in a tent, not a building.
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Post by jason on Apr 7, 2010 8:47:06 GMT -5
How Christians give thanks for the world:
All Creatures of our God and King One of my favourite hymns, written by St. Francis of Assisi, which I sing frequently.
All creatures of our God and King, Lift up your voice and with us sing, Alleluia! Alleluia! Thou burning sun with golden beam! Thou silver moon with softer gleam!
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! O praise Him! Alleluia!
St. Francis' point is that we are all creatures made by the hand of our glorious and majestic Father; we share a certain brotherhood with all the created elements of the universe which are "always declaring the glory of God". Let us join therefore with all the created world in singing:
Let all things their Creator bless, And worship him in humbleness, O praise ye! Alleluia! Praise, praise the Father, praise the Son, And praise the Spirit, Three in One! O praise ye! O praise ye! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!
To the praise of his glory, now and for ever. Amen.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 7, 2010 8:53:09 GMT -5
I love that hymn! One of my favorites too.
fs
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Post by jason on Apr 7, 2010 8:56:03 GMT -5
Life itself. To me, being an Atheist means I do not believe in or give homage to diety. It doesn't mean I don't believe there is an underlying force or cause to all existance. An underlying force to which you seem to attribute intelligence and powers of cognition. One cannot thank an impersonal, dumb force.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 8:56:07 GMT -5
St.Anne, surely you can see that the term "temples built with hands" isn't referring to "hands" but to "temples"?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 7, 2010 9:19:13 GMT -5
St.Anne, surely you can see that the term "temples built with hands" isn't referring to "hands" but to "temples"? What temple is being referred to in the following passage bert? John 2:
18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?"It appears to me that Jesus is speaking of the body as the temple, while the Jews believed it to be a building. Can you please post the verses that show where there are references to God dwelling in physical temples in the New Testament? Scott
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Post by Annan on Apr 7, 2010 11:15:50 GMT -5
Life itself. To me, being an Atheist means I do not believe in or give homage to deity. It doesn't mean I don't believe there is an underlying force or cause to all existence. An underlying force to which you seem to attribute intelligence and powers of cognition. One cannot thank an impersonal, dumb force. I can thank anything I choose to thank. I get your point, Jason, but you aren't comprehending mine. I believe my will and intent helps influence the world around me. I become the change I wish to see. Being thankful is simply a way of energizing and influencing change. I'm not getting into another Christian vs New Age discussion.
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Post by emy on Apr 7, 2010 13:24:41 GMT -5
Sounds like purposeful deceitfulness to me. No, I don't think so. My post above (#207) speaks to this. Besides, where is the deceit? Even if the friends and workers don't want to say the word "building", that is not being deceitful. They may want to differentiate, but that is hardly lying. Anyway, I still think the idea of the word "shed" fitting better and being a normal word to use for such a building, is more the case. Ditto. For example, in this state there was some suggestion that we should call the meeting shed and dining shed "meeting room" and "dining room" but us old farmers just keep calling it a shed!
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Post by emy on Apr 7, 2010 13:35:48 GMT -5
I wasn't asking about the workers' involvement.
I asked about this:~~ It is NOT silly at all. If the Holy spirit was in the church buildings the early workers wouldn't have LEFT their churches to follow something different from what they were raised in. If I had felt the Spirit of God in the church buiding I wouldn't have LEFT it in 1978.If the Holy spirit was in the church buildingsSo. You're attempting to convince us that the Holy Spirit is in convention sheds. But not in church buildings. Have I got that right? ~~ From my own experience and opinion, the answer is Yes. The Holy Ghost is given to them OBEY him (Acts 5:22) Not sure what your response is, Nathan.
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Post by emy on Apr 7, 2010 13:40:07 GMT -5
Here is how I see it. The Holy Spirit lives in hearts of believers. If a number of believers gather in one place, Jesus will be there, too, because he said, Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be in their midst.
That's the only time the Spirit would be found in a meeting SHED.
Sharon, you would be amazed at some of the modern buildings on farms here (not just convention places) that, yes, continue to be called sheds. There is no allusion to being low-cost!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2010 16:32:52 GMT -5
Here is how I see it. The Holy Spirit lives in hearts of believers. If a number of believers gather in one place, Jesus will be there, too, because he said, Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be in their midst. That's the only time the Spirit would be found in a meeting SHED. Sharon, you would be amazed at some of the modern buildings on farms here (not just convention places) that, yes, continue to be called sheds. There is no allusion to being low-cost! Yes, I know, Emy...that's why I disagreed to calling them sheds...the cost of those buildings would have been outrageous if the workers and friends had not donated labor, equipment and supplies! I'm amazed at the "pride" that has been touted about the new buildings....sounds a lot like the other denominations back in the 60's when they built much better church buildings.....it used to be that "pride" was the thing the beginning workers worked to dispel the most....that's why they used what was available and often used tents or I've even know when a large tent was needed two small ones had to be used for the use in mind. I think it is time that the fellowship just admit, hey we've had to come out of our negative thinking about church buildings regardless how they're built....they have to come up to code, so be it!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 7, 2010 16:41:38 GMT -5
No, I don't think so. My post above (#207) speaks to this. Besides, where is the deceit? Even if the friends and workers don't want to say the word "building", that is not being deceitful. They may want to differentiate, but that is hardly lying. Anyway, I still think the idea of the word "shed" fitting better and being a normal word to use for such a building, is more the case. Ditto. For example, in this state there was some suggestion that we should call the meeting shed and dining shed "meeting room" and "dining room" but us old farmers just keep calling it a shed! Maybe some farmers can't get new lingo past their two ears...however some of us do. I remember how overjoyed we were with the milking barn after having had to milk the cows in the regular 2 story stalled barn, mixing the milking in with the stuff from the hayloft sifting down, cats under the feet, the dogs after the cats, newborn calves and colts raising a ruckus for their bottles and that would keep the cows upset so they wouldn't let their milk down....and an occasional copperhead in the manager close to the cows' feed troughs....and sometimes chickens running through the barn pooping just where one might need to step to get to or away from the milk cow. Yea, we were well able with great gladness to call the "new" building a real milkhouse.....as it had refrigeration, sinks with cold and hot water...stanchions for the cows to stand in and electric milkers...yep...real easy to change our lingo!
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Post by fred on Apr 7, 2010 17:59:50 GMT -5
Our convention grounds has new purpose built facilities - they serve no other purpose than to house a once a year four day convention.
In conversation I always refer to them as 'our church's buildings'. I prefer honesty in all my dealings, but I guess some would mark me as a trouble maker.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 7, 2010 18:25:22 GMT -5
Our convention grounds has new purpose built facilities - they serve no other purpose than to house a once a year four day convention. In conversation I always refer to them as 'our church's buildings'. I prefer honesty in all my dealings, but I guess some would mark me as a trouble maker. Wow, Fred. You Rawk!!
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2010 20:10:39 GMT -5
Our convention grounds has new purpose built facilities - they serve no other purpose than to house a once a year four day convention. In conversation I always refer to them as 'our church's buildings'. I prefer honesty in all my dealings, but I guess some would mark me as a trouble maker. Nothing wrong with that Fred. After all, they are church buildings.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 7, 2010 20:35:49 GMT -5
St.Anne, surely you can see that the term "temples built with hands" isn't referring to "hands" but to "temples"? Well darned if you're not right about that. Everything's cool then. I go to church. I don't go to temple. (That would be the Mormons, right?)
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Post by jason on Apr 7, 2010 21:24:11 GMT -5
An underlying force to which you seem to attribute intelligence and powers of cognition. One cannot thank an impersonal, dumb force. I can thank anything I choose to thank. I get your point, Jason, but you aren't comprehending mine. I believe my will and intent helps influence the world around me. I become the change I wish to see. Being thankful is simply a way of energizing and influencing change. I'm not getting into another Christian vs New Age discussion. I really don't care one way or another. I was merely pointing out what seems to me to be a logical contradiction. It still makes no sense to me, but that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2010 8:25:35 GMT -5
A cryptic question. God dwells in the physical also, but are we talking of stone structures, or a living heart?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2010 8:28:59 GMT -5
Sharonw, you have sought to dispense with just about everything said about physical temples in the Christian bible. If Jesus was here today, would He worship God in a cathedral, a mosque, a Buddhist retreat?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 8, 2010 8:40:18 GMT -5
A cryptic question. God dwells in the physical also, but are we talking of stone structures, or a living heart? Referring to your interpretation of 'a building made with hands'. Of course maybe you could give us your interpretation of that so we understand just exactly what you mean when you refer to that statement in the future. A cryptic questionAnd here all along I thought I knew what you meant when you used that statement..... Boy am I ever stupid huh??? Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 8, 2010 9:24:02 GMT -5
Sharonw, you have sought to dispense with just about everything said about physical temples in the Christian bible. If Jesus was here today, would He worship God in a cathedral, a mosque, a Buddhist retreat? If Jesus was here today, would He worship God in a cathedral, a mosque, a Buddhist retreat?Personally, I think he would. His statement at the well was: John 4:
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.I think he made it clear (in my mind anyhow...) that the physical place of worship would no longer be of importance. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2010 9:27:22 GMT -5
With stem-cell technology there will be a day (any time soon) when a human heart can be "made with hands." But God is very particular - He does not live in temples built with hands. A "temple" in this case could be a tent, a house or helium balloon IF it is a dedicated place of worship. A dedicated place of worship takes worship out of a home where people live, and places it where people don't live. It presumes that God can meet with people there instead of living within them. It replaces the spiritual with the symbolic. It requires an officiating clergy or priesthood. It needs taxes. It presumes to give people the sense of God's present through other means. It provides a worldly presence. It treats the command "God does not dwell in temples made with hands" as if it is simply another opinion. Its message is one of physical anchorage rather than the ethereal nature of our transit through life. It demonstrates a profound ignorance of what is written in Romans and Hebrews about the worldly tabernacle. It misunderstands Peter's mistake in calling for the building of tabernacles on the mount. etc etc etc..
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