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Post by apple on May 23, 2011 14:13:31 GMT -5
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Post by kencoolidge on May 28, 2011 17:36:03 GMT -5
Apple Will the workers read these links and make comments? Or You just hoping? ken
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Post by déjà vu on May 28, 2011 18:16:22 GMT -5
I found this in my documents under the title" for worker to read"
Worker
I really like you. You have a wonderful heart and I can feel it. Understand one thing about me, I love for you to listen but I really want you to hear as well. What I am saying to you comes from my heart. I am expressing to you what many, many professing people feel right now. Young people, middle aged people, old people, all of us. You may not realize it, but in many areas we are at a cross roads. People are quitting coming to meetings and they will continue to do so, until we either fix our problems or if we keep our head in the sand, until no one is left. You see I hate people leaving our church to join another one because it leaves a hole. A good person leaves and then we are pained, but I can't blame them. I understand.
More than anything I pray my words will reach a cord in your heart. A cord of understanding. If you want to reach out to people in this world, and if you really want to understand what the youth of the kingdom want, I am telling you. You can tell me I don't understand or I lack understanding or whatever, but the reality is, I am telling you what is wrong. Do you understand?
I am almost 30. I have witnessed everything I have told you on here for most of my living years. I have professed for most of my life, but realized only in the last 5-6 years I had totally deceived myself. I had believed a lie. I believed we were the only way. I didn't actually put my trust fully in Jesus but rather in our "way". Scary I know. I had cut people out of my life because of self-righteousness. I will never make that mistake again. I consider anyone who trusts and confesses Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour to be my brother or sister. I know many people on this board through emails and I believe everyone here or at least most of us are Christian, another struggling soul, an equal in the path of life. We are all in this together.
We only want what is right. We want bread. We crave it. We love Jesus and that is all we want. Period. We don't want to hear about workers and meetings in the home. Seriously. How many times do we read about the Children of Israel thanking God for Moses. Ah, I think never. Why? Because he was only a mouth piece for God. He never, ever praised himself or said he was important. Why? Because God could have used anyone. Such it is with us. I don't want my time wasted, going to a Gospel meeting only to hear about workers. I can only imagine how an outsider must feel. "Man, I came here to hear about Jesus and all I have heard about is these people and their great sacrifice or why they are right". "What a weird church", and then they never come again. Who are the losers here? We are. Why because our meetings miss out on adding a new voice, another perspective, another soul who will go and join another church.
Seriously we need to add new blood to our church or we will start having kids with tails or three eyes. I am not joking, we are almost inbreeding.
Most of my Spiritual growth, if not all, has come, not because of hearing workers or meetings, or elders. No, most of the growth in my life has come because of time alone with God. It is sad. I have had to ask myself why I continue to go to gospel meeting or convention when there is such a lack of substance. The reality is, I continue to go because I am praying and waiting for change. I pray for the workers, I really do. I pray God will help you see the importance of only preaching Jesus and thankfully the message is coming through. This year, one older brother fully admitted in a Gospel meeting that this way can't be traced back further than the late 1890's. But he is one of oh so few.
It is a beautiful start, but we need more to correct the course many people are running. People need to be reminded and told that we are Christians, that we are only a Church, that the world has another 2 or 3 billion other Christians, not 100,000 or 200,000 other Christians. We need to take off the blinders and open our eyes to the reality that our God is the Almighty God, and He is everywhere. He is working in millions of peoples lives, billions of people actually and there are brothers and sisters everywhere. If people started to realize this, it would really help us look at others considerably different. More than likely it would help us treat others differently as well. We would become more welcoming and would quit looking down on others. I know not everyone does this, but many 2x2's here, if they are honest, will admit they have or still do. I know I have and I am ashamed of ever doing it. So, Christ has corrected me and I will never do it again. Ever.
Worker, I love you and I love and appreciate the life you live and your convictions. I love the fact you love Christ so much you give your life for him. Please, open your ears to hear what I am telling you. If you can realize that I am not some crazy young guy, I am actually your brother, telling you and warning you that we need change. We need to learn to love again. We need to be Gracious and open our arms to our brothers and sisters. We need to refocus our eyes on Christ and not our little home church.
We are only human, I know, but we need to work on things. Pray, yes, act now, definitely. May God bless you in your efforts, preaching Christ and Christ alone and I pray that maybe God will help you understand what I am trying to tell you from my heart.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 19:14:28 GMT -5
Apple Will the workers read these links and make comments? Or You just hoping? ken Maybe it should be moved to the worker board.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 19:16:28 GMT -5
I found this in my documents under the title" for worker to read" Worker I really like you. You have a wonderful heart and I can feel it. Understand one thing about me, I love for you to listen but I really want you to hear as well. What I am saying to you comes from my heart. I am expressing to you what many, many professing people feel right now. Young people, middle aged people, old people, all of us. You may not realize it, but in many areas we are at a cross roads. People are quitting coming to meetings and they will continue to do so, until we either fix our problems or if we keep our head in the sand, until no one is left. You see I hate people leaving our church to join another one because it leaves a hole. A good person leaves and then we are pained, but I can't blame them. I understand. More than anything I pray my words will reach a cord in your heart. A cord of understanding. If you want to reach out to people in this world, and if you really want to understand what the youth of the kingdom want, I am telling you. You can tell me I don't understand or I lack understanding or whatever, but the reality is, I am telling you what is wrong. Do you understand? I am almost 30. I have witnessed everything I have told you on here for most of my living years. I have professed for most of my life, but realized only in the last 5-6 years I had totally deceived myself. I had believed a lie. I believed we were the only way. I didn't actually put my trust fully in Jesus but rather in our "way". Scary I know. I had cut people out of my life because of self-righteousness. I will never make that mistake again. I consider anyone who trusts and confesses Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour to be my brother or sister. I know many people on this board through emails and I believe everyone here or at least most of us are Christian, another struggling soul, an equal in the path of life. We are all in this together. We only want what is right. We want bread. We crave it. We love Jesus and that is all we want. Period. We don't want to hear about workers and meetings in the home. Seriously. How many times do we read about the Children of Israel thanking God for Moses. Ah, I think never. Why? Because he was only a mouth piece for God. He never, ever praised himself or said he was important. Why? Because God could have used anyone. Such it is with us. I don't want my time wasted, going to a Gospel meeting only to hear about workers. I can only imagine how an outsider must feel. "Man, I came here to hear about Jesus and all I have heard about is these people and their great sacrifice or why they are right". "What a weird church", and then they never come again. Who are the losers here? We are. Why because our meetings miss out on adding a new voice, another perspective, another soul who will go and join another church. Seriously we need to add new blood to our church or we will start having kids with tails or three eyes. I am not joking, we are almost inbreeding. Most of my Spiritual growth, if not all, has come, not because of hearing workers or meetings, or elders. No, most of the growth in my life has come because of time alone with God. It is sad. I have had to ask myself why I continue to go to gospel meeting or convention when there is such a lack of substance. The reality is, I continue to go because I am praying and waiting for change. I pray for the workers, I really do. I pray God will help you see the importance of only preaching Jesus and thankfully the message is coming through. This year, one older brother fully admitted in a Gospel meeting that this way can't be traced back further than the late 1890's. But he is one of oh so few. It is a beautiful start, but we need more to correct the course many people are running. People need to be reminded and told that we are Christians, that we are only a Church, that the world has another 2 or 3 billion other Christians, not 100,000 or 200,000 other Christians. We need to take off the blinders and open our eyes to the reality that our God is the Almighty God, and He is everywhere. He is working in millions of peoples lives, billions of people actually and there are brothers and sisters everywhere. If people started to realize this, it would really help us look at others considerably different. More than likely it would help us treat others differently as well. We would become more welcoming and would quit looking down on others. I know not everyone does this, but many 2x2's here, if they are honest, will admit they have or still do. I know I have and I am ashamed of ever doing it. So, Christ has corrected me and I will never do it again. Ever. Worker, I love you and I love and appreciate the life you live and your convictions. I love the fact you love Christ so much you give your life for him. Please, open your ears to hear what I am telling you. If you can realize that I am not some crazy young guy, I am actually your brother, telling you and warning you that we need change. We need to learn to love again. We need to be Gracious and open our arms to our brothers and sisters. We need to refocus our eyes on Christ and not our little home church. We are only human, I know, but we need to work on things. Pray, yes, act now, definitely. May God bless you in your efforts, preaching Christ and Christ alone and I pray that maybe God will help you understand what I am trying to tell you from my heart. A beautifully written letter...honest and expressive. Even if one wasn't a worker, it is a good read.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 19:56:47 GMT -5
Its so sad when you read from people like this who actually think the workers were to blame for their lack of life or faith.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 21:22:46 GMT -5
Its so sad when you read from people like this who actually think the workers were to blame for their lack of life or faith. What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 21:42:03 GMT -5
Its so sad when you read from people like this who actually think the workers were to blame for their lack of life or faith. What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that? Well, if salvation is a gift of God, I don't see what any worker or religion can do to stop him. Do you?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 21:50:34 GMT -5
What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that? Well, if salvation is a gift of God, I don't see what any worker or religion can do to stop him. Do you? Does everyone brought up in the meetings know that salvation is a gift of God? Or do they understand that salvation comes by meeting participations?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 21:51:23 GMT -5
What's more sad, even stunning, is how many kids have been brought up to focus on the workers and meetings, not Christ. Who is to blame for that? ~~ I don't believe too many workers who teach the kids, teenagers, and adults to focus on themselves/workers instead in Christ and God.So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 22:19:26 GMT -5
So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. ~~ NOT from the workers! How many workers do you know that PREACH and TEACH focus on themselves in the gospel meetings, convention, special meetings?Quite a few when I was growing up. I mean to give meeting participation and obedience to the workers a greater place than Christ. Where does this come from? Why do we hear so much of it? According to ettu, these are just sad people and it's not the fault of the workers but they are blaming the workers. Do they just have wild imaginations, just silly, stupid...or what is wrong with them?
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Post by someguy on May 28, 2011 22:27:27 GMT -5
So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. ~~ NOT from the workers! How many workers do you know that PREACH and TEACH focus on themselves in the gospel meetings, convention, special meetings?
And what do you mean by focus on the workers themselves instead in Jesus or God?most anytime a worker talks about Matt 10 they are focusing on themselves and that happens or happened in every mission I was ever in at least once in the mission. The tragedy is people blame kids or friends for thinking these things, and say as Nate says, themselves. As if I as a young person should have known better. My parents raised in meetings believe meetings are essential and workers, and why? After 60 years of hearing that of course they believe it. Of course workers are to blame. Just as much as anyone if not more for preaching that garbage. I know many workers and friends that even this day believe Jesus started a new ministry and instituted meeting in a home. Therefore they preach that, and blame young people for not properly understanding. Pathetic.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 22:37:34 GMT -5
~~ NOT from the workers! How many workers do you know that PREACH and TEACH focus on themselves in the gospel meetings, convention, special meetings?
And what do you mean by focus on the workers themselves instead in Jesus or God?most anytime a worker talks about Matt 10 they are focusing on themselves and that happens or happened in every mission I was ever in at least once in the mission. The tragedy is people blame kids or friends for thinking these things, and say as Nate says, themselves. As if I as a young person should have known better. My parents raised in meetings believe meetings are essential and workers, and why? After 60 years of hearing that of course they believe it. Of course workers are to blame. Just as much as anyone if not more for preaching that garbage. I know many workers and friends that even this day believe Jesus started a new ministry and instituted meeting in a home. Therefore they preach that, and blame young people for not properly understanding. Pathetic. Well said someguy. All this "what? who says that?" sort of stuff from Nathan and ettu is disingenuous. The focus on the system is widespread and endemic, including the workers themselves. Whoever doesn't see it has chosen not to look. As if the kids are to blame indeed.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 28, 2011 23:06:11 GMT -5
Workers make mistakes, have incorrect interpretation....~~ Themselves. I don't believe too many workers who teach the kids, teenagers, and adults to focus on themselves/workers instead in Christ and God.I sure was taught that growing up Nathan. I didn't hear it from my parents, but from the platform. Just read some of the sermons that are posted. Pretty obvious that it was taught that the workers/meetings in the home were the way to salvation. And you are certainly right about incorrect interpretation. Not all of them are like that, but when you are taught that the 'workers are always right', then when the incorrect interpretation is taught....... then it is going to be believed as being right. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on May 28, 2011 23:20:44 GMT -5
The workers are like helpers NOT the Savior. Then we were being taught that the only way to salvation and to the Savior was through the 'helpers'. We are all 'helpers' when it comes to spreading the gospel message. However, we are not essential in someone's salvation. Scott
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Post by StAnne on May 28, 2011 23:32:30 GMT -5
I found this in my documents under the title" for worker to read" Worker More than anything I pray my words will reach a cord in your heart. A cord of understanding. Chord?
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Post by Scott Ross on May 29, 2011 0:22:38 GMT -5
ALL are helpers of God in spreading the gospel. Bloom wherever/place God has planted us.Who do you include in 'ALL' in that statement Nathan? Are you referring to all of us who are Christians, or are you only meaning the friends and workers? Do you think that I am helping spread the gospel message? Also, do you think that this is being preached by the workers? Scott
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 0:35:09 GMT -5
Quite a few when I was growing up. I mean to give meeting participation and obedience to the workers a greater place than Christ. Where does this come from? Why do we hear so much of it? According to ettu, these are just sad people and it's not the fault of the workers but they are blaming the workers. Do they just have wild imaginations, just silly, stupid...or what is wrong with them? Like I said there are some odd balls workers out there but most workers are Christ focus NOT selves focus. God gives us brains so use it wisely. This isn't about oddball workers, the problem is endemic. Until we recognize that, we can't fix it and teach our children properly.
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Post by quizzer on May 29, 2011 1:48:28 GMT -5
I have a dislike for the statement, "The workers are not always right." This statement is ALWAYS used after the workers have strongly stated that they are right (or at least unquestionable). Then, when they're proven wrong, they cry that they're only human and can't be always right.
Oh, sure! Why don't the workers evaluate a situation as if they're human and could be wrong from the very beginning? That way, the friends and workers might be able to determine the truth of different matters, and totally avoid cover-ups and apologies.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 29, 2011 2:57:35 GMT -5
~~ Matthew 10 is part of Jesus ministry! Pathetic for those who do not understand it. Workers make mistakes, have incorrect interpretation..... We must learn to go to God for understanding of His truth.
When you point a finger/blame at others four fingers are pointing back at you. It's human to blame others and NOT at ourselves. When I was a still a worker, I began to grow nervous about all the focus on "the ministry," yet when I very hesitantly broached the topic to another worker, I was told something to the effect that "It's the foundation of our belief." My feeling was that we should spend much less time talking about it and just "be." The talk about Matt. 10 very much lifts up the workers. I think a lot of it is done in much more subtle ways, though, as in the marginalization some of us have experienced. To show how fearful I was of criticizing a worker, it was actually very liberating to actually say some pretty strong things about a worker that was hurting us. And I found out the earth wasn't going to swallow me. It was liberating to begin to understand that the fellowship could be analyzed, just like any institution. This doesn't mean it was all bad, but just that it was created by human decisions, and it could be studied in that way. To me, all of this points to a fear that is produced by someone. Yes, we have all been involved, and we have given people authority in our lives. But it's hardly appropriate to blame people for this, when they know nothing else, and cannot see any other way to think and do things. This was even true for my wife, Jayne, who did not profess until she was in college. She was terribly afraid to discontinue going to meetings or to challenge the workers in any way. It's one thing to see this in those of us who were raised attending meetings, but then to see someone who only began later in life have the same fear tells me someone is feeding those fears. It's true that Jayne came from a religious background that used a lot of fear to control people, but then the workers could have done much to dissolve those fears. Religious/spiritual leaders we have learned from since that time haven't left us with the feeling that they're above reproach, and that we'll be punished if we criticize them. Actually, I have also been noting lately how I hear many "spiritual" things now that I have heard for years from the workers, and I won't accuse the workers of not practicing them, but it's more like they have codified and institutionalized so many of Jesus' teachings that they have become rigid rules. "The ministry" itself is one of those things. Going out and simplifying a person's life as much as possible could be a wonderful thing, if done through love, but when it becomes a practice to prove others wrong, it has lost its effectiveness - its life. This has happened in many ways with the workers' teachings. And we've all been a part of it . . .
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 29, 2011 2:59:14 GMT -5
I have a dislike for the statement, "The workers are not always right." This statement is ALWAYS used after the workers have strongly stated that they are right (or at least unquestionable). Then, when they're proven wrong, they cry that they're only human and can't be always right. Oh, sure! Why don't the workers evaluate a situation as if they're human and could be wrong from the very beginning? That way, the friends and workers might be able to determine the truth of different matters, and totally avoid cover-ups and apologies. You're right on the mark with this, Quizzer! It's always used to stop investigation into something after the fact, rather than a humble openness to hearing the various sides of a story.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 5:44:01 GMT -5
~~ I don't believe too many workers who teach the kids, teenagers, and adults to focus on themselves/workers instead in Christ and God. So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. Well, sometimes we underestimate the intelligenge of children, they are much more assertive these days than they were many year ago; they actually think for themselves, not all of them, but many do.
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 9:25:42 GMT -5
Workers make mistakes, have incorrect interpretation....~~ Themselves. I don't believe too many workers who teach the kids, teenagers, and adults to focus on themselves/workers instead in Christ and God.I sure was taught that growing up Nathan. I didn't hear it from my parents, but from the platform. Just read some of the sermons that are posted. Pretty obvious that it was taught that the workers/meetings in the home were the way to salvation. And you are certainly right about incorrect interpretation. Not all of them are like that, but when you are taught that the 'workers are always right', then when the incorrect interpretation is taught....... then it is going to be believed as being right. Scott I heard Jesus is the way of Salvation.... The workers are like helpers NOT the Savior. The gospel meetings are there to help us to keep on going, learning more about Jesus. The worship meetings are to help to remember God goodness to us, Christ's passover, and to edifying one another to grow spiritually.
Sorry, the workers ARE not always right..... And we all know that! Do you believe Jesus preached salvation? Then how many month by month missions did Jesus hold? Then consider this, How many spontaneous missions did Jesus preach/have? Consider Zacheus....he was desparate not to miss Jesus, so he actually RAN to climb a sycamore tree so he could see the Messiah. Well Zacheus' faith was already there, and all it took was for Jesus to tell Zacheus to come down and Jesus himself would go sup with him.....so that mission took what a total of a very few hours in all appearances. Consider the woman taken in adultery, just a matter of a few minutes wasn't it? And in the end, what did Jesus tell her? "Go and sin no more." There are many others...the blind man, simple few mins. Jesus mixed spittle and anointed his eyes and the man went on....rejoicing. Jesus knew these individuals and what their need was and was able to quickly teach them what they needed to know in a matter of very few mins. and occasionally a few hours. These mission held for months and then meetings not tested and baptisms not provided "because they just still don't get it"...WHAT are these people not getting? It is simple very simple that which is the story of salvation...very simple....this "don't get it" has to do with people not getting the understanding of the fellowship's unwritten rules and guidelines...that is what that's all about. In Acts people were preached to one, two maybe three days and on occasion maybe longer and then were baptized nearly immediately...why do the workers hold back baptisms? They think someone's faith in them is weak? Most the time, yes..... If the workers were understanding that THEY cannot measure the amount of the gift of faith in any ONE heart, they would NOT with hold baptism, period. They seem to forget that they are judging another man's servant when they judge someone to be weak in faith...they're measureing the "faith in the system" is what they're adept at measuring....but they sure are not adept and NEVER will be adept at measuring the heart of God's servants and I'm not meaning preachers at all..as we all are God's servants.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 9:29:29 GMT -5
So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. Well, sometimes we underestimate the intelligenge of children, they are much more assertive these days than they were many year ago; they actually think for themselves, not all of them, but many do. True. Kids are just as intelligent as ever, but they are more free today to exercise their judgment. Recently I had a teenager tell me that "I zone out certain people in meeting not so much for what they say, but the tone in their voices tell me something bad is going on inside." That's remarkably perceptive really because the indicator of the tone of voice happened to be quite accurate as I knew much more about their lives. Another thing that teen mentioned to me is "the worst part of meeting is the bashing, I really can't stand that." So you are right partaker, these things don't go unnoticed entirely. However, many kids are brought up within a very limited paradigm and everything they perceive is biased by the paradigm. It's very difficult for these kids to perceive the truth, even very intelligent ones.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 29, 2011 10:42:26 GMT -5
ALL are helpers of God in spreading the gospel. Bloom wherever/place God has planted us.1) Scott wrote: Who do you include in 'ALL' in that statement Nathan? Are you referring to all of us who are Christians, or are you only meaning the friends and workers? ~~ I am talking about the workers and the friends.2) Do you think that I am helping spread the gospel message? Also, do you think that this is being preached by the workers? ~~ Yes, you're spreading the gospel but it is on the Rock foundation or on the sand that we have to wait and see. There are many denominations claim to spread the gospel out there. The confusion it has caused just amazing. I am talking about the workers and the friends.By that statement, do you mean that there are no Christians other than the F&W's? If it is only those that can spread the message, then you must believe that all others outside of meetings are not Christians. Is that what you believe? There are many denominations claim to spread the gospel out there. The confusion it has caused just amazingI wasn't talking about denominations. I was referring to myself as an individual. Do you believe that we are saved individually, or because of the church we go to? If it is individually, then it isn't the church we belong to that matters is it? It is our individual relationship with Jesus/God that matters. Going by your responses, you only believe that those that profess in meetings are able to spread the gospel message. Do you think that is putting God in a box? Do you think that means that one must go through a worker in order to have a relationship with Jesus/God? Scott
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Post by sharonw on May 29, 2011 12:21:34 GMT -5
Why would Jesus just die for a few thousand souls? Why would Jesus predestinate a few thousand souls? After all, He's created them all...God would not that any man should perish....I don't believe we can hold salvation out by just a very few men and women...that IS PUTTING GOD IN A BOX! And ddin't God say after the veil was rent in twain that He would not dwell in a building ever again? So if He will not dwell in a building why should we expect Him to live in a 2X2 box?
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Post by Sylvestra on May 29, 2011 13:44:13 GMT -5
~~ I don't believe too many workers who teach the kids, teenagers, and adults to focus on themselves/workers instead in Christ and God. So where do they get these ideas from Nathan? It doesn't come from nowhere. Correct, clearday! And, furthermore, why is it such a common thread among the exes? Because that is what our minds were filled with by the F&W in and out of meetings!
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Post by Sylvestra on May 29, 2011 13:59:51 GMT -5
ALL are helpers of God in spreading the gospel. Bloom wherever/place God has planted us.1) Scott wrote: Who do you include in 'ALL' in that statement Nathan? Are you referring to all of us who are Christians, or are you only meaning the friends and workers? ~~ I am talking about the workers and the friends.2) Do you think that I am helping spread the gospel message? Also, do you think that this is being preached by the workers? ~~ Yes, you're spreading the gospel but it is on the Rock foundation or on the sand that we have to wait and see. There are many denominations claim to spread the gospel out there. The confusion it has caused just amazing.
~~ Yes, you're spreading the gospel but it is on the Rock foundation or on the sand that we have to wait and see. There are many denominations claim to spread the gospel out there. The confusion it has caused just amazing.Nate, I had the same questions Scott made to you when I read what you originally posted. Then, here you have finally shown the colors that make everything you said earlier very disingenuous!! You have proved that you believe exactly what we exes have been accusing you of!!!!!!!!! You have said that your church's ministry and the church in the home is the "rock" foundation and that all other churches are a "sand" foundation. Do you not realize that JESUS is the rock foundation, and not your church? I believe that is the very crux of misinformation your church teaches!!!!!E
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