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Post by alexander on Feb 26, 2011 16:29:52 GMT -5
From the Impartial Reporter newspaper p8, January 1903. ========================================= "Everyone who lifts his voice or pen against Jesus Christ or against his messengers- and I am one of them- has to answer to his God." William Irvine
This is very fine bombast! With what sublime audacity this Pharisee associates himself with the Most High, and proclaims himself His messenger, with the view of striking awe into the simple-minded souls who listen. And he clinched the idea with these words- 'It is awful if a man dares to lift his finger against God', and the inference was obvious. www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_newspapers/1903.php========================================= Note that as far back as the beginning of this fellowship (or if you like, the raising up of life from a stump, or dormant seed), the workers have preached themselves and warned ANY that would "lift voice or pen" that was critical of Jesus OR a worker- then they would have to answer to his God. Note that the reporter saw right through Mr. Irvine's bluster and the reporter understood that the purpose of such preaching is to "strike awe into the simple-minded souls who listen." The reporter also realized the import of the spiritual bullying when William Irvine said, "It is awful if a man dares to lift his finger against God'- the reporter wrote that the inference was obvious. The inference, of course, is part of the mysticism that the workers promote, and that is, daring to object to a worker is the same as daring to lift a finger against God. I realize that some of the worker loyalists here are going to object, "but that was over 100 years ago. The workers don't preach that anymore!" Uh, yes they do. Dale Schultz wrote the following as a weird sort of apology to the friends for the workers having kicked out over 20 families from the fellowship just because they refused to state yes to the following question: "Do you support this ministry in all we do?” Those who had serious concerns and replied, “No,” were excommunicated on the spot. Blind obedience is the requirement, and only a "yes" answer was acceptable. The friends that said "no" to that question were excommunicated. An elder and his wife that asked for more time to pray about it, were not granted the time and were excommunicated.) Dale Schultz, the current (2011) overseer of California in the 2x2 / Truth / Fellowship, had written on April 12, 1999:I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.Dale went on to write in that same letter:Another possibility is that it was not the best decision for the province. But, whichever is the applicable possibility in this case, it does remain the right thing to respect that decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject.www.thelyingtruth.info/index.php?f=exc&id=shultzI'll add my opinion to the reporter's. This doctrine of "disagreeing with a worker is the same as disagreeing with God" has to go. Jesus never asked for blind obedience. We are to try the spirits. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I find it incrediblly ironic that the title of the newspaper that had recorded so much of the early days of this fellowship was titled, "The Impartial Reporter".
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Post by emerald on Feb 26, 2011 19:18:41 GMT -5
In Fermanagh, many call it the "Partial Reporter". It's loosely aimed at the Protestants of Fermanagh and would often carry snippets of news about Gospel missions from other churches but probably not since the flurry of excitement from the early days of the meetings, has there been such extensive coverage of a particular church or denomination.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 26, 2011 19:29:38 GMT -5
In Fermanagh, many call it the "Partial Reporter". It's loosely aimed at the Protestants of Fermanagh and would often carry snippets of news about Gospel missions from other churches but probably not since the flurry of excitement from the early days of the meetings, has there been such extensive coverage of a particular church or denomination. The intense reporting of the "new" secct by the Impartial Reporter may have been the reason that the fellowship went "secret"...too much attention in the wrong way, eh?
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Post by alexander on Feb 26, 2011 19:58:47 GMT -5
In Fermanagh, many call it the "Partial Reporter". It's loosely aimed at the Protestants of Fermanagh and would often carry snippets of news about Gospel missions from other churches but probably not since the flurry of excitement from the early days of the meetings, has there been such extensive coverage of a particular church or denomination. Interesting, thanks for the feedback.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 26, 2011 22:26:54 GMT -5
In the early 1900's, The owner of the Impartial Reporter was William Copeland Trimble (aka WCT). He came from and was a staunch Presbyterian. From TTT Chapter 1:THE IMPARTIAL REPORTER & FARMERS JOURNAL: You may be asking, "What on earth is the Impartial Reporter?" It was the local newspaper, located in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland...Their earliest newspaper article about "The Testimony" to be found at this time (year 2011) is dated January 15, 1903. These articles have been reprinted for your convenience on the Telling The Truth Website. The Impartial Reporter published its first newspaper on May 19, 1825. In 1900, it published one newspaper per week. Some issues contain the following heading: "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The ‘Impartial Reporter’ is the only paper which circulates throughout the Diocese of Clogher, in counties of Fermanagh, Donegal, Tyrone, and Monaghan. It is the only paper which circulates throughout the Diocese of Kilmore in Cavan and Leitrim; and it issues five copies for two copies of the local paper nearest in position." (taken from July 23, 1908 p5 issue) William Trimble (1802-1886), a native of Pomeroy, County Tyrone, Ireland, was the first editor-proprietor of The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal. It is based in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Norther Ireland. He was succeeded by his second son, William Copeland Trimble (1851-1941), who wrote a pamphlet titled The Tramps or Go-Preachers, (Sometimes called Pilgrims), 1910 under the initials W.C.T. Wm C. Trimble was married twice. First, on October 3, 1881, to Letitia Jane Weir, born May 18, 1854. Their marriage was registered in South Dublin. They had 5 children and she died eleven years later on January 8, 1892, being 38 years old. Letitia Jane Weir was the daughter of John Weir, and was related to the William Weir family who owned a store on Baggot Street in Dublin, where the first Sunday morning meeting was held. Perhaps this is why W.C. Trimble devoted so much time and energy into reporting about the activities and beliefs of the Tramp Preachers. His second marriage was to Lily Reilly on May 8, 1893. They had 3 children.The weekly newspaper was owned and run by the William Trimble family since it was founded in 1925.William Copeland Trimble was succeeded as editor-proprietor of the Impartial Reporter by his son William Egbert Trimble (1882-1967). On his death, his daughter, Joan (born 1915) took over the reins. In turn, they were passed on to her daughter, Joanna McVey. In June, 2006, the 181 year-old Northern Ireland weekly, The Impartial Reporter, was bought by Ulster News Group, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Dunfermine Press Ltd. In the past twenty years, friends, workers, and ex-friends have continued to make pilgrimage visits back to the “Old Country” and visit the office of The Impartial Reporter, located in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland investigating the group’s beginning. At this newspaper publishing office, there are at least 100 old newspaper columns on file written by reporters who visited conventions, missions, workers and friends and trace the development of the 2x2 fellowship at the turn of the 20th century. Visit their Impartial Reporter website. See PHOTO of Crocknacrieve ConventionJenny Cathcart looks at Irelands 3rd oldest newspaper
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Post by alexander on Feb 26, 2011 23:13:50 GMT -5
In the early 1900's, The owner of the Impartial Reporter was William Copeland Trimble (aka WCT). He came from and was a staunch Presbyterian. Thanks for the additional info, Cherie.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 27, 2011 14:25:22 GMT -5
Quote: “He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD” (Proverbs 17:150
But for one to find out what is true or false they must look into matter and hear both sides before they make a final judgment. “The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge” (Proverbs 18:15).
In a time of catchy phrases and clichés', Christians can be no different. What does the Bible mean when it says not to touch God’s anointed? It’s not my opinion or yours that matters; but what God’s Word have to say about this that really counts? I certainly wish the people that repeat this phrase would read it in its context, 'the Lord's anointed', is a reference to the kings of the nation of Israel (1Sam. 12:3,5; 24:6,10; 26:9,11, 16,23; 2 Sam. 1:14,16; 19:21; Psalm 20:6; Lam. 4:20). The mention of prophets, is a reference to the patriarchs (Psalm 105:8-15; 1Chron. 16:15-22). It is used exclusively in the Old Testament. Ps 105:11-15 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,” When they were few in number, indeed very few, and strangers in it. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people, “He permitted no one to do them wrong; yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes, Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones, and do My prophets no harm.” Notice in this Scripture that God protected His anointed (who was Israel) and His prophets from the enemies of Israel to bring physical harm.
The first thing one should notice is that the word touch actually means physical harm. What it does not mean is saying something about another person publicly that is true. How do we know this? Because that's exactly what David did about Saul. It was David who said he would not harm God’s anointed, who was King Saul at the time but He spoke out publicly about him.
Not only David, but Samuel “touched God's anointed,” as he spoke out against the kings disobedience. God told Saul to “Smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not...” (1 Sam. 15:3). But instead, he spoke a half truth and “spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord...” (v.15). Samuel said it was rebellion like witchcraft and idolatry (v.24). Because he did not obey the Word of the Lord he would be removed being king. Saul admitted he feared the people and obeyed their voice. What a crucial thing to learn of Saul who was God's anointed.
In1 Sam.16:13-16 we find David who was shepherd boy was anointed before God took away Saul’s position. David refused to touch Saul physically but it didn’t stop him from telling everyone the truth about him publicly.
David not raising his hand to touch (harm physically) God’s anointed is used in 1 Sam.26:9,11,23. Look at 1 Sam.26:11: tells us that David would not stretch his hand out to touch him (harm him); instead he sneaked up and took Saul’s spear and water jug. In verse 15 David rebukes Abner for not guarding Saul and says he deserved to die. Saul hears the commotion and comes out, and David rebukes Saul before all his troops, asking why he is pursuing David’s life since he is innocent -- that the king has come out to seek a flea. Saul then repented for his rash behavior and called himself a fool. David returned Saul’s possessions and said, “For the Lord delivered you into my hand but I would not stretch out my hand against the Lord’s anointed.” Notice what this means, not to bring physical harm.
1 Samuel 24:10 “Look, this day your eyes have seen that the LORD delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you, and I said, ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the Lord's anointed.” “And David said to Abishai, “Do not destroy him; for who can stretch out his hand against the Lord's anointed, and be guiltless?”(1 Sam. 26:9)
Saul was anointed as King over Israel he had a position of rulership that was soon to be over. Knowing he was next in line David refused to physically touch the king as God’s anointed and remove him from his position prematurely. It was God, not David who would remove Saul from his position (26:8-10).
We should notice an important part in this story, it was Saul who was pursuing David, hunting him down and trying to kill him. The Bible story has Saul whose position was threatened, pursuing to kill David who was innocent. Isn’t this what we see today? Those who are in a greater position of leadership going after people who are anointed that are challenging them in what they are saying and doing as wrong. From their position they have trained people to listen to them and willing to silence their challengers. They do this by going after them with Bible threats such as “don’t touch God’s anointed” or you are committing the “blasphemy the Holy Spirit” when you speak against another “man of God.” Ignoring the fact that blasphemy meant one is saying that Jesus’ miracles were done by an unclean spirit, not about questioning another mans alleged miracles. Those of the flesh are pursuing those who are of the Spirit, just as Saul did to David. Those who are following the Spirit of the Lord go to His Word to keep themselves in the truth no matter what the opposition may say.
It’s interesting that in Rev. 6:9 John writes “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.” They were killed because they held to the Word against the opposition and so they became martyrs. Those who apostatize from the Word always hate those who keep it.
We find the story of Saul ends with David kept from the Battle that Saul and Jonathan lost their lives in, instead he fought the Amalakites. An Amalakite messenger came back with torn clothes and dust on his head showing he was in mourning, David inquired of him and he told David he killed Saul. “So David said to him, “How was it you were not afraid to put forth your hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?” Then David called one of the young men and said, “Go near, and execute him!” And he struck him so that he died. So David said to him, “Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, 'I have killed the LORD's anointed.’”(2 Sam 1:13-16) Again it is clear, to touch the anointed means to bring physical harm, most often death. But if you spiritualize it, it can mean anything you want. 2 Sam 1:17-19 David took up this lament concerning Saul and his son Jonathan, and ordered that the men of Judah be taught this lament of the bow (it is written in the Book of Jashar): “Your glory, O Israel, lies slain on your heights. How the mighty have fallen!” Each time is about those who were killed. David did not relish the fact that God's anointed was apostate and met his end, he wept.
Since most of these so called anointed teachers that come under their follower’s protection teach the Word out of context, its not surprising that they would quote a verse of Scripture removed from its correct meaning for their own self- protection. Those who shout don’t touch God’s anointed think they are doing God’s work, but they rarely ever look at the facts presented. They listen to their teachers and do not want to hear the other side of the story. They cut themselves off from hearing the truth. And some, even when they are shown false teachings and prophecies do not care, but look to some personality who captured their loyalty. They become enemies of all reason, their own worst enemy. They do not realize they have been trained well, and like Pavlov’s dogs, react the same way each time. It's time to break free!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 27, 2011 18:44:28 GMT -5
In Fermanagh, many call it the "Partial Reporter". Interesting, thanks for the feedback. Emerald is the second person I've seen say that here on TMB, the other person grew up reading The Impartial Reporter. Trimble is on record stating he would use his newspaper in counter-advocacy whenever he personally felt he had reason to. You won't find that statement quoted by the counter-advocacy. Trimble is the daddy of the vocal and biased 2x2 counter-advocacy. This is so objectively apparent that uninvolved Wiki editors questioned posting the Impartial Reporter article that is used on the Christian Conventions page. I told them I thought it should remain because it shows the character of whoever wrote those articles. Wiki has a very hard time with using newspapers as reference material - it's generally not recommended - probably because newspapers don't have the independent, objective editorial oversight professional research published in book format does. Basically what kills wiki source material is no independent and objective editorial oversight. That's exactly what counter-advocacy flavored publications like The Impartial Reporter lack. I wonder if the "W.M. Rule" who wrote the Coonyites article for Heresies Exposed *is* Trimble. The content of that article is woven into much of the subsequent and even current counter-advocacy - very easily seen when you trace it back - sometimes it's nearly word for word. (You can see a lot of pretty obvious "cut and paste" jobs. There are lots of secondary and tertiary sources quoting other secondary and tertiary sources with practically no-one bothering to do some objective primary source research. Point out this problem on the wiki CC talk page and not even crickets will respond. ) All of this brings up the interesting consideration of the objectivity of counter-advocacy especially if it is based on apostate testimony. [Reference; ->> Apostates and New Religious Movements ]
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Post by alexander on Feb 27, 2011 18:50:14 GMT -5
Interesting, thanks for the feedback. Emerald is the second person I've seen say that here on TMB, the other person grew up reading The Impartial Reporter. Trimble is on record stating he would use his newspaper in counter-advocacy whenever he personally felt he had reason to. You won't find that statement quoted by the counter-advocacy. Trimble is the daddy of the vocal and biased 2x2 counter-advocacy. This is so objectively apparent that uninvolved Wiki editors questioned posting the Impartial Reporter article that is used on the Christian Conventions page. I told them I thought it should remain because it shows the character of whoever wrote those articles. Wiki has a very hard time with using newspapers as reference material - it's generally not recommended - probably because newspapers don't have the independent, objective editorial oversight professional research published in book format does. Basically what kills wiki source material is no independent and objective editorial oversight. That's exactly what counter-advocacy flavored publications like The Impartial Reporter lack. I wonder if the "W.M. Rule" who wrote the Coonyites article for Heresies Exposed *is* Trimble. The content of that article is woven into much of the subsequent and even current counter-advocacy - very easily seen when you trace it back - sometimes it's nearly word for word. (You can see a lot of pretty obvious "cut and paste" jobs. There are lots of secondary and tertiary sources quoting other secondary and tertiary sources with practically no-one bothering to do some objective primary source research. Bring this problem up on the wiki CC talk page and not even crickets will respond. ) All of this brings up the interesting consideration of the objectivity of counter-advocacy especially if it is based on apostate testimony. [Reference; ->> Apostates and New Religious Movements ] Nice information, Jesse. But the newspaper or their bias has very little to do with what William Irvine or Dale Schultz said. The reporter quoted William Irvine. I quoted Dale Schultz that said almost the same thing 100 years later. Neither are opinions, they are quotes directly from the workers. You can make the Impartial Reporter the boogeyman if you want, but I am more concerned with the doctrine that the workers promote that to write or speak against a worker is equivalent to writing or speaking against Christ.
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Post by alexander on Feb 27, 2011 18:58:18 GMT -5
Trimble is on record stating he would use his newspaper in counter-advocacy whenever he personally felt he had reason to. Is Trimble on record stating he used his newspaper in counter-advocacy of the 2x2s? Or are you assuming that he did? Do you have ANY evidence that his newspaper published untruths about the 2x2s or William Irvine? The New York Times is a counter-advocacy newspaper. Does that make them untruthful, or do they just hammer more on the causes that mean the most to them? What about Foxnews? Or any other major news organization? They all use their bully pulpit to further their own agendas or ideas. But that doesn't make them untruthful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 19:56:36 GMT -5
Jesse. I like this and would like to use in a future web site. Trimble is on record stating he would use his newspaper in counter-advocacy whenever he personally felt he had reason to. You won't find that statement quoted by the counter-advocacy. Trimble is the daddy of the vocal and biased 2x2 counter-advocacy. This is so objectively apparent that uninvolved Wiki editors questioned posting the Impartial Reporter article that is used on the Christian Conventions page. I told them I thought it should remain because it shows the character of whoever wrote those articles.
Wiki has a very hard time with using newspapers as reference material - it's generally not recommended - probably because newspapers don't have the independent, objective editorial oversight professional research published in book format does. Basically what kills wiki source material is no independent and objective editorial oversight. That's exactly what counter-advocacy flavored publications like The Impartial Reporter lack.
I wonder if the "W.M. Rule" who wrote the Coonyites article for Heresies Exposed *is* Trimble. The content of that article is woven into much of the subsequent and even current counter-advocacy - very easily seen when you trace it back - sometimes it's nearly word for word. (You can see a lot of pretty obvious "cut and paste" jobs. There are lots of secondary and tertiary sources quoting other secondary and tertiary sources with practically no-one bothering to do some objective primary source research. Point out this problem on the wiki CC talk page and not even crickets will respond. )
All of this brings up the interesting consideration of the objectivity of counter-advocacy especially if it is based on apostate testimony.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 20:08:57 GMT -5
Alexandra, no-one has a problem with the truth. Rather: WHAT PART OF THE TRUTH ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 20:33:54 GMT -5
What is truth??. Where is truth??. The courts of the land have a problem with this. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. Truth is whatever a person wants to believe. Very abstract!!.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 27, 2011 20:35:53 GMT -5
Alexander: Trimble & the Impartial Reporter have long been Jesse's soapbox...There were laws for libel even back then. The workers even sued against the libel of Mr. R. D. Wilson calling the workers traffickers of White Slaves (sister workers). Read about it here: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/whiteslave.php QUOTE: "Five generations of the Trimble family have managed the paper since William Trimble, the first owner/manager launched it in 1825. A fiery Ulster Scots Presbyterian who served his apprenticeship as a printer in Dublin, this was his ambitious brief: " 'Regardless alike of the frowns of party, and the smiles of power, we shall state our own convictions on all subjects which come under our review. We shall defend the Protestant when we consider him in the right, and the Roman Catholic may expect similar treatment.' " From: Jenny Cathcart looks at Irelands 3rd oldest newspaper
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Post by open mind on Feb 27, 2011 20:41:05 GMT -5
Is there a competition on that I missed? How many time you can get the phrase "counter-advocacy" into a post?
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Post by JO on Feb 27, 2011 20:57:57 GMT -5
Workers consider themselves to have authority over the friends. This from Willis Propp:
"God’s servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God." [Olympia Washington Convention, August 26, 1979]
Workers are still positioning themselves as God's representatives on earth who we must submit to without question.
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Post by stargazer on Feb 27, 2011 21:29:05 GMT -5
Cherie, yawning and condecending to Jesse isn't like you. Frankly, just because a paper has been run by "five generations" of the same family does not establish impartiality. You would better respond to Jesse by demanding evidence of the cut and paste he describes. "Alexander: Trimble & the Impartial Reporter have long been Jesse's soapbox...There were laws for libel even back then. The workers even sued against the libel of Mr. R. D. Wilson calling the workers traffickers of White Slaves (sister workers). Read about it here: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/whiteslave.php" Also, I'm sure you meant to point out that Mr. R. D. Wilson named in the libel suit was in no was connected with the Impartial Reporter. So, as it is today with Fox News, CNN, The New York Times, etc, the Impartial Reporter had a decidedly biased view in their articles. That isn't illegal. Your comments do not refute Jesse's point and are a diversion.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 27, 2011 21:33:58 GMT -5
Workers consider themselves to have authority over the friends. This from Willis Propp: "God’s servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God." [Olympia Washington Convention, August 26, 1979] Gods servants do have spiritual authority. Who are the servants? Every christian is a servant of Christ. We love and serve him as Lord. To suggest the workers are the only servants??? that is deception in its purest form. It is also idolatry.
Frankly their level of understanding regarding a chunk of scripture is non existence because they only believe in part of scripture they do not believe in the Full Gospel. Workers are still positioning themselves as God's representatives on earth who we must submit to without question. Run then. Any leader worth their salt will listen to questions[color=Blue][/color]
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 27, 2011 21:39:29 GMT -5
Alexandra, no-one has a problem with the truth. Rather: WHAT PART OF THE TRUTH ARE YOU REFERRING TO? Exactly. "that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."Here's a quote from the wiki Christian Conventions page; "Ordinary meetings among lay believers are held in houses, but periodically the itinerants visit each district, and there they borrow a hall (often the Church hall of an unsuspecting minister) for a preaching meeting for the public at large." —Bryan R. Wilson" I think Alex (having been a worker) would recognise that statement is far from reality, that instead of "often", very few meetings are held in a Church hall let alone one that's borrowed from "an unsuspecting minister". I linked the 150+ current gospel meetings anouncements listed on VOT for the "owner" of the CC article but he wasn't interested in the "whole" truth. The quote remains on the page. Bryan lists his source for the statement as The Secret Sect. This confirms a tertiary source quoted a secondary source with neither bothering to consult reality. Plus Bryan quoted unreliable apostate testimony, something his later work warned against. Alexander, did you read what Emerald said? "It's loosely aimed at the Protestants of Fermanagh and would often carry snippets of news about Gospel missions from other churches but probably not since the flurry of excitement from the early days of the meetings, has there been such extensive coverage of a particular church or denomination. " The articles *are* the record Trimble used his newspaper for counter-advocacy; the "extensive coverage of a particular church or denomination" when there were just "snippets" about others is the proof. Why did Trimble choose to do that? A clue might be what Cherie bolded in her post. It was personal - like it usually is in the case of counter-advocacy. And all too often making it personal also makes it subjective, not objective. Making it personal and subjective will affect the partiality of the effort - this is easy to understand. The subjective researcher will pick and choose according to their bias. The tone was very clear to uninvolved wiki editors. It is what it is. Cherie, yawning and condecending to Jesse isn't like you. Yes it is like Cherie to do that.
In the early 1900's, The owner of the Impartial Reporter was William Copeland Trimble (aka WCT). He came from and was a staunch Presbyterian. From TTT Chapter 1:THE IMPARTIAL REPORTER & FARMERS JOURNAL: You may be asking, "What on earth is the Impartial Reporter?" It was the local newspaper, located in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland...Their earliest newspaper article about "The Testimony" to be found at this time (year 2011) is dated January 15, 1903. These articles have been reprinted for your convenience on the Telling The Truth Website. The Impartial Reporter published its first newspaper on May 19, 1825. In 1900, it published one newspaper per week. Some issues contain the following heading: "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The ‘Impartial Reporter’ is the only paper which circulates throughout the Diocese of Clogher, in counties of Fermanagh, Donegal, Tyrone, and Monaghan. It is the only paper which circulates throughout the Diocese of Kilmore in Cavan and Leitrim; and it issues five copies for two copies of the local paper nearest in position." (taken from July 23, 1908 p5 issue) William Trimble (1802-1886), a native of Pomeroy, County Tyrone, Ireland, was the first editor-proprietor of The Impartial Reporter and Farmers' Journal. It is based in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Norther Ireland. He was succeeded by his second son, William Copeland Trimble (1851-1941), who wrote a pamphlet titled The Tramps or Go-Preachers, (Sometimes called Pilgrims), 1910 under the initials W.C.T. Wm C. Trimble was married twice. First, on October 3, 1881, to Letitia Jane Weir, born May 18, 1854. Their marriage was registered in South Dublin. They had 5 children and she died eleven years later on January 8, 1892, being 38 years old. Letitia Jane Weir was the daughter of John Weir, and was related to the William Weir family who owned a store on Baggot Street in Dublin, where the first Sunday morning meeting was held. Perhaps this is why W.C. Trimble devoted so much time and energy into reporting about the activities and beliefs of the Tramp Preachers. His second marriage was to Lily Reilly on May 8, 1893. They had 3 children.The weekly newspaper was owned and run by the William Trimble family since it was founded in 1925.William Copeland Trimble was succeeded as editor-proprietor of the Impartial Reporter by his son William Egbert Trimble (1882-1967). On his death, his daughter, Joan (born 1915) took over the reins. In turn, they were passed on to her daughter, Joanna McVey. In June, 2006, the 181 year-old Northern Ireland weekly, The Impartial Reporter, was bought by Ulster News Group, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Dunfermine Press Ltd. In the past twenty years, friends, workers, and ex-friends have continued to make pilgrimage visits back to the “Old Country” and visit the office of The Impartial Reporter, located in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland investigating the group’s beginning. At this newspaper publishing office, there are at least 100 old newspaper columns on file written by reporters who visited conventions, missions, workers and friends and trace the development of the 2x2 fellowship at the turn of the 20th century. Visit their Impartial Reporter website. See PHOTO of Crocknacrieve ConventionJenny Cathcart looks at Irelands 3rd oldest newspaper
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 27, 2011 22:14:17 GMT -5
Jesse wrote: "just a few snippets about other" churches or denominations? I sincerely doubt that is true. Can you personally support that statement? Have you read any of the old IMP newspapers beyond those that have been collected for your easy access by "the counter-advocacy"? I know Emerald wasnt around back when the early articles were written (1904+) so s/he wouldnt know what they contained or didn't contain. By the year 1911, they barely received a mention that the convention was being held. There could easily have been much in the IMP paper about other churches...In fact, I have several whole sheets of IMP newspapers. Their contents are interesting and amusing. They probably have all kinds of other church news in them--I cant recall--I never looked for tha type news in them. Take a look at the dates for the IMP articles about the Tramp Preachers on TTT. Most of them coincide with the dates when the local convention Crocknacrieve was held - in July and August each year. That's because their reporters were covering the convention. It is infrequent that the IMP mentioned the Tramp Preachers at other times during the year. Trimble didnt just "go off" and rant and rave against them...whenever he pleased. The conventions provided him or his reporters with "ammunition." On the other hand, a new sect, especially one radically departing from church norms could expect to be discussed...It was a NEW THING, and they weren't doing it hiding in a corner and by not trying to step on toes. However, I've never seen any IMP articles make headlines about the Tramp Preachers. For your easy access, here is a link to the list of early newspaper articles on TTT: www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_guide/newsprold.php
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Post by JO on Feb 27, 2011 22:17:36 GMT -5
Jesse, would it be OK to get back to the OP? We can't have an intelligent discussion until we're agreed that William Irvine and Dale Shultz actually made the statements in the OP.
Could you please tell us if you think the following quotes are true or false:
1. "Everyone who lifts his voice or pen against Jesus Christ or against his messengers- and I am one of them- has to answer to his God." William Irvine
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2. Dale Schultz, the 2011 2x2 / Truth / Fellowship Overseer of California, had written:
I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.
Dale went on to write in that same letter: Another possibility is that it was not the best decision for the province. But, whichever is the applicable possibility in this case, it does remain the right thing to respect that decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 27, 2011 23:59:03 GMT -5
Cherie - Even though you yourself wrote "Perhaps this is why W.C. Trimble devoted so much time and energy into reporting about the activities and beliefs of the Tramp Preachers" volume isn't always an indicator of counter advocacy, tone and attitude is. Trimble wrote for publication other than in The Impartial Reporter - what he wrote indicates (like you said) it wasn't a casual and impersonal subject for him. It's the tone of his advocating very subjectively and emotionally against the fellowship the wiki editor discussion was about. Our discussion here isn't going to change the obvious flavor of what Trimble wrote, it is what it is.
~
Re the quoted OP statements - I haven't tracked down and verified them myself but I can believe they were made. I don't see any reason I should get subjective and emotional about them though.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 28, 2011 0:34:27 GMT -5
Jesse wrote: Did he write anything besides: (1) a 3 Vol history book about Enniskillen; And (2) a pamphlet that was "A Series of Articles republished from the "Impartial Reporter" Newspaper (Enniskillen), by request, and now revised and supplemented by the Author." Read it here: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/trimblewc.php
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Post by JO on Feb 28, 2011 2:38:23 GMT -5
Re the quoted OP statements - I haven't tracked down and verified them myself but I can believe they were made. I don't see any reason I should get subjective and emotional about them though. Jesse, without getting subjective and emotional do you have a view about whether the following doctrine is from God or from man? "Disagreeing with a worker is the same as disagreeing with God."
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 28, 2011 3:58:02 GMT -5
Jesse, without getting subjective and emotional do you have a view about whether the following doctrine is from God or from man? "Disagreeing with a worker is the same as disagreeing with God." I don't think that is a correct paraphrase of the two quotes. It depends what the disagreement is about, it could very well be that a disagreement with a worker, exe, or anyone else for that matter is disagreeing with God too - if the other person's mind on the matter is in agreement with God's. It seems to be the situation in Alberta was escalated to the point both sides were like porcupines with quills out. Every little bump became an ouch. Thinking like enemies instead of friends - and maybe still are. Escalating is so easy, so natural, once you are all puffed up with quills quivering de-escalating is very hard to do. If a disagreement causes us to make someone else our enemy we need to do what Jesus commanded, love them and pray for them. When that happens hard feelings evaporate, quills deflate. We all have to account for our words, thoughts, and actions towards others just like Irvine said.
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Post by landdownunder on Feb 28, 2011 4:20:05 GMT -5
I don't think that is a correct paraphrase of the two quotes. It depends what the disagreement is about, it could very well be that a disagreement with a worker, exe, or anyone else for that matter is disagreeing with God too - if the other person's mind on the matter is in agreement with God's. It seems to be the situation in Alberta was escalated to the point both sides were like porcupines with quills out. Every little bump became an ouch. Thinking like enemies instead of friends - and maybe still are. Escalating is so easy, so natural, once you are all puffed up with quills quivering de-escalating is very hard to do. If a disagreement causes us to make someone else our enemy we need to do what Jesus commanded, love them and pray for them. When that happens hard feelings evaporate, quills deflate. We all have to account for our words, thoughts, and actions towards others just like Irvine said. Jesse, get some sleep man!
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Post by landdownunder on Feb 28, 2011 4:34:00 GMT -5
Workers consider themselves to have authority over the friends. This from Willis Propp: "God’s servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God." [Olympia Washington Convention, August 26, 1979] Workers are still positioning themselves as God's representatives on earth who we must submit to without question. This is Roman Catholicism!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 8:04:59 GMT -5
Workers consider themselves to have authority over the friends. This from the author of Hebrews, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
"God’s servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God." [Olympia Washington Convention, August 26, 1979] Note Paul's understanding and authority, "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine"
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