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Post by StAnne on May 18, 2010 15:07:49 GMT -5
I hope not because I fear having the workers respond to the counsel of men more than the guidance of the Spirit. I'm a little confused by your response emy. Are you saying that the workers should disregard any counsel/suggestions/guidance offered to them by members of the truth fellowship? The problem with that thought is that it looks as if you feel that the Spirit wouldn't be working in the lives of anyone but the workers. I wouldn't think that there would be any issue with listening to the counsel of men who are being led by the Spirit. In fact we read about how the early church members were consulted on church affairs. It sure seems to be scriptural to allow 'men' to have a say in church matters, such as when the church was instructed:. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word." I would think that if one is to be considered a Christian, then it follows that they are also Spirit led in their lives. Although they are 'men', that certainly shouldn't be a reason to discount what they have to say. In the church I attend, the elders have a lot to say in how the church deals with the issues that come up. They do this by praying for guidance before they make decisions. Do the elders in your church have the authority to deal with issues that arise in their local church, or must they defer to the workers to make all the decisions? 17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.Scott 1 Tim 5 17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. Douay-Rheims Bible 17 Let the priests who rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. Haydock commentary...Ver. 17-18. The priests, or ancient ministers, (i.e. bishops, priests, &c.) deserve a double honour; i.e. to be more liberally supplied and maintained by the flock, especially when they labour in preaching the word.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 18, 2010 15:21:33 GMT -5
Do you feel that the workers have absolute authority in your church emy and that they should never be questioned? Scott
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Post by JO on May 18, 2010 15:32:43 GMT -5
Do the elders in your church have the authority to deal with issues that arise in their local church, or must they defer to the workers to make all the decisions? 17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.Scott The workers, as the Catholics before them, interpret this scripture to be referring to a celibate dedicated ministry class. Elders in our church are basically meeting hosts and hymn announcers.
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Post by emy on May 18, 2010 16:23:01 GMT -5
I should have read my psot over more carefully. I was reading while clicking and realized what I said could be misconstrued.
I do think the workers have some authority, but not absolute. and I'm surely not one who advocates never questioning their ideas or thoughts. I think I have previously made that clear.
But to think that any one person has better insight to God's mind than another, is counterproductive and I do not discount their minds and their spiritual guidance, and if I seriously heard something that would cause damage and could not discern a way I could be misunderstanding the concept, I'd hope to have courage to talk with them about it.
I just don't always see a lot of the discussion attitude. I see so much more of "if they would just do it OUR way." I concede the problem can be in my perspective.
Concerning the 7 men chosen to 'serve tables'... I don't think the apostles considered them equal in authority, do you? It seems inherent that the apostles considered preaching the gospel more important than serving tables.
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Post by StAnne on May 18, 2010 16:30:22 GMT -5
IConcerning the 7 men chosen to 'serve tables'... I don't think the apostles considered them equal in authority, do you? It seems inherent that the apostles considered preaching the gospel more important than serving tables. A deacon's role in the church is (still) less than that of the priest or bishop.
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Post by ronhall on May 18, 2010 17:01:06 GMT -5
One of the most effective management techniques is the delegating of authority (and responsibility). Jesus understood this clearly in the parable of the talents.
Taking this in a contemporary sense within the confines of the worker-elder-friend relationship the degree of delegation varies considerably, as it should, with the personalities involved. An astute elder will as quickly accommodate a worker who wants to personally validate every decision as he will one who is of a more laid-back management style.
What must be acknowledged is that each entity has to work on its own, whether it is a meeting with an elder suddenly absent or a field with workers off on convention rounds. A lack of ability to carry on the fellowship without human oversight should be viewed with great concern.
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Post by JO on May 18, 2010 18:27:44 GMT -5
Authority is in the message - not the messenger.
If you want authority, you might as well go join the Catholic Church.
IMO authority is NOT what Jesus taught. Talk of authority sets alarm bells ringing in my head.
Authority is the cause of so many Christian organizations all claiming to be the one-true-authority.
Those who bring me nearer to Christ, don't do it by authority. And I can never bring another poor soul nearer to Christ with authority.
Play with words and scriptural interpretation if you must, but I believe the quickest way to quench the Spirit is to give some believers authority over other believers.
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Post by JO on May 18, 2010 20:07:38 GMT -5
I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:
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The gentile model of authority: "In Mark 10:42 "...Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them."
The kingdom model of authority: Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
In Mark 10:43-44 Jesus defines the authority of the kingdom which He says will not be modelled after the gentile type; that of the greatest exercising "Lordship."
He goes on to describe the Kingdom model as that of being a "minister" or a "servant."
It seems that it takes faith to believe that this can actually work, just as it takes faith to accept any of the concepts that Jesus set forward. I have experienced the authority of the Kingdom by gestures of service and kindness which have humbled my heart, and caused me to worship God.
Any kindness or service that has the Kingdom's authority in it will bring about a response and a responsibility, as Christ's spirit always does.
The great thing is we can all have this authority because it is always safe and when I have used it, it has the right affect and makes the other party responsible to God and not me.
The gentile model attempts to make another responsible to the lordship concept or the individual exercising it.
The Kingdom model makes both parties responsible to the Spirit of God.
When the service of another humbles me I automatically have acknowledged its authority by bowing to it.
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skippy
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Post by skippy on May 18, 2010 21:48:02 GMT -5
Amen Jesus Only.
It was the forced authority that I was expected to accept whole heartedly and with a good spirit that totally blew the workers' credibility out of my universe. There is NOTHING that ends it quicker for me then absolute "authoritativeness*" when the person is not accurate factually or legally. Let's just say all consumable oxygen is sucked out of the room and I can't escape quickly enough to catch my breathe.
*I made that up but it sounds good, aye? Or is it actually a word? I can't counted on to remember right now.
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skippy
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Post by skippy on May 18, 2010 22:08:06 GMT -5
But back to the original thread. I do believe that the Gospel is sometimes preached in meeting. In the 30 years I was going I heard many things that helped me find my way and see God with more clarity. I have maybe 10-15 statements that I have collected in my life that I think of all the time. Many of them are from workers, and many have taken me right to the heart of Christianity.
I remember Wm Lewis once saying that if you could hear even one thing in a meeting or convention that actually sank into your heart and helped you see, love, serve Christ more clearly, then that was a good convention. In the last years that I went, there did always seemed to be just one thing from a convention that really helped me. I will always be grateful for that.
But it wasn't always. Sometimes I just got plain bored in gospel meeting and wished I had stayed home and read on my own.
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Post by open mind on May 18, 2010 22:26:58 GMT -5
sounds like convention this year Why bother going if that's all it is to you? not a moaner are you? I go because there are some workers who genuinely preach the gospel and I love listening to and they are worth the time.
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Post by StAnne on May 18, 2010 22:34:51 GMT -5
I remember Wm Lewis once saying that if you could hear even one thing in a meeting or convention that actually sank into your heart and helped you see, love, serve Christ more clearly, then that was a good convention. helped you see, love, serve Christ more clearlyhmmm...sounds quite familiar...From CCC # 1721... God put us in the world to know, to love, and to serve him, and so to come to paradise.
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Post by JO on May 18, 2010 23:23:36 GMT -5
It was the forced authority that I was expected to accept whole heartedly and with a good spirit that totally blew the workers' credibility out of my universe. There is NOTHING that ends it quicker for me then absolute "authoritativeness*" when the person is not accurate factually or legally. Let's just say all consumable oxygen is sucked out of the room and I can't escape quickly enough to catch my breathe. There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset.
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Post by Rob Sargison on May 18, 2010 23:30:56 GMT -5
It was the forced authority that I was expected to accept whole heartedly and with a good spirit that totally blew the workers' credibility out of my universe. There is NOTHING that ends it quicker for me then absolute "authoritativeness*" when the person is not accurate factually or legally. Let's just say all consumable oxygen is sucked out of the room and I can't escape quickly enough to catch my breathe. There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. So JO, are you saying, conversely, that seeing Godly behaviour in a worker may convince one into a one-true-way mindset?
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Post by emy on May 18, 2010 23:50:35 GMT -5
There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. This sounds to me like you are saying any minister who supports a one-true-way must be perfect (in our modern sense of the word). Is that what you are saying? If so, did Peter believe Jesus was the one true way? Was Peter perfect?
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Post by JO on May 19, 2010 0:34:17 GMT -5
There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. So JO, are you saying, conversely, that seeing Godly behaviour in a worker may convince one into a one-true-way mindset? No, I'm not saying that. But now that you mention it I wonder if that is in fact what happened with many first generation converts?
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Post by JO on May 19, 2010 0:42:47 GMT -5
There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. This sounds to me like you are saying any minister who supports a one-true-way must be perfect (in our modern sense of the word). Is that what you are saying? If so, did Peter believe Jesus was the one true way? Was Peter perfect? Are you putting workers on the same level as Jesus? Of course Peter wasn't perfect. I'm sure he preached the perfect Jesus - not the perfection of the apostles and their organization. If workers preach the perfect Jesus like the apostles did they will be on safe ground. If they preach their organization in the hopes of having people put their faith in it they've got it all wrong. All I'm saying is that seeing ungodliness in the ministry tends to jolt folks out of their sleep and cause them to re-examine their faith.
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Post by kiwi on May 19, 2010 2:25:39 GMT -5
Why bother going if that's all it is to you? not a moaner are you? Some of us care, Kiwi. If folks like Ian speak up about the lack there is hope that the preaching will change for the better. Care by moaning? I find no lack and I find no need for the preaching to change. If one goes with an attitude to find something to moan about then that is all they will get. If one goes with the attitude of getting some bread for the soul then that is what they will get.
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Post by kiwi on May 19, 2010 2:30:08 GMT -5
Good depiction of a standard gospel meeting bert. It's unfortunate that we have to rely on the hymns to keep Jesus in the meetings. The passing mention of Jesus in a prayer or a sermon at a gospel meeting is hardly an indication of a Christ-focused gospel. Can you honestly say that only a passing mention of Jesus in a prayer or a sermon at a gospel meeting is what you experience? Is God also just mentioned in like manner? My experience the complete opposite. Is there any chance of you giving us a complete transcript of one of the Gospel meeting you go to?
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Post by kiwi on May 19, 2010 2:33:17 GMT -5
I hope not because I fear having the workers respond to the counsel of men more than the guidance of the Spirit. If the workers responded to the guidance of the Spirit, people like Ian would rejoice. If they have a spirit in which the Holy Spirit can respond to
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 2:41:20 GMT -5
Good depiction of a standard gospel meeting bert. It's unfortunate that we have to rely on the hymns to keep Jesus in the meetings. The passing mention of Jesus in a prayer or a sermon at a gospel meeting is hardly an indication of a Christ-focused gospel. I didn't say that but it's not unusual for Jesus to be incidental to a gospel meeting. I don't doubt that, your experience is your own. Fat chance of that. Recordings of meetings are prohibited lest they "fall into the wrong hands" but you already know that. I know you don't trust notes unless they are favourable to your prejudices.
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Post by kiwi on May 19, 2010 3:17:49 GMT -5
I didn't say that but it's not unusual for Jesus to be incidental to a gospel meeting. I don't doubt that, your is experience is your own. Fat chance of that. Recordings of meetings are prohibited lest they "fall into the wrong hands" but you already know that. I know you don't trust notes unless they are favourable to your prejudices. Since when have they been prohibited? I have taped many a gospel meeting for others who can't get because of sickness, conventions also If I didn't trust notes why would I have thousands? Why would I get at lest 5 new a day? Are you saying you can't be trusted? Seems like the spirit of a miserable sod
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 3:28:44 GMT -5
Great, why don't you post some transcripts of your gospel meetings and we'll have a look at them. No cherry picking, just some of your random sermons which you are apparently authorized to post here.
I'm saying you don't appear to trust anything which does not agree with your prejudices. I think I'm repeating myself......
Insightful stuff there kiwi. Is name calling one of your regular practices, or do you save it all up for this site?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 6:30:14 GMT -5
Jesusonly stated
Scott asked
The author of Hebrews wrote
Did the Hebrews author answer this question?
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Post by sharonw on May 19, 2010 7:01:16 GMT -5
Authority is in the message - not the messenger. If you want authority, you might as well go join the Catholic Church. IMO authority is NOT what Jesus taught. Talk of authority sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Authority is the cause of so many Christian organizations all claiming to be the one-true-authority. Those who bring me nearer to Christ, don't do it by authority. And I can never bring another poor soul nearer to Christ with authority. Play with words and scriptural interpretation if you must, but I believe the quickest way to quench the Spirit is to give some believers authority over other believers. I think some get the wrong interpretation of authority in the spiritual sense...simply because it says that Jesus taught with authority....I think that simply meanms that He knew of what He was speaking,...I never got the impression Jesus was demanding or overlording with anyone and He certainly never did in the physical sense at all....He is truth and that is that....
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Post by sharonw on May 19, 2010 7:04:32 GMT -5
Amen Jesus Only. It was the forced authority that I was expected to accept whole heartedly and with a good spirit that totally blew the workers' credibility out of my universe. There is NOTHING that ends it quicker for me then absolute "authoritativeness*" when the person is not accurate factually or legally. Let's just say all consumable oxygen is sucked out of the room and I can't escape quickly enough to catch my breathe. *I made that up but it sounds good, aye? Or is it actually a word? I can't counted on to remember right now. I understood what you were saying so I guess the word is appropriate!~
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Post by sharonw on May 19, 2010 7:11:12 GMT -5
It was the forced authority that I was expected to accept whole heartedly and with a good spirit that totally blew the workers' credibility out of my universe. There is NOTHING that ends it quicker for me then absolute "authoritativeness*" when the person is not accurate factually or legally. Let's just say all consumable oxygen is sucked out of the room and I can't escape quickly enough to catch my breathe. There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. I understand this so very well...some behaviours within the workership has sealed the truth that the fellowship is nothing more then another sect of religion...some of it good for spiritual growth, some of it misconstrued or misinterpreted and some of it not so very good.... A ministry that holds itself to be celibate and above reproach that hides the NON-celibate behaviours of the peers is being as much in error as the ones who do the deeds. Oppressing those who were not of consent to the non-celibate behaviour is really worse then the non-celibate behaviours. IMO It is hard for me to understand why anyone knowing of what has gone on in the past and for long years within the fellowship and the Catholic church could possibly keep going and believing that it is spiritually hopeful to support such, is beyond me!
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Post by sharonw on May 19, 2010 7:13:50 GMT -5
There's nothing like seeing ungodly behaviour in the ministry to jolt one out of a one-true-way mindset. So JO, are you saying, conversely, that seeing Godly behaviour in a worker may convince one into a one-true-way mindset? I am not sure that a on-true-way mindset in regards to a group of people holding itself away from all other people is a healthy thing...however it is helpful to see people trying to fulfill the "inpression" of their profession honestly!
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