Gord
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Post by Gord on Jun 9, 2009 8:24:35 GMT -5
I have a couple of questions:
First of all, is the book, The Gate Seldom Found by Raymond Reid a "Truth" book?
I know it's just a novel, but the people in it sound very much like Friends and Workers.
Secondly, in the book, the first workers were not actually connected to the F&W's... they just sort of figured it out on their own. Does this count? Are they as much in the Truth as the F&W, even though they are not connected, and had no contact?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 8:29:22 GMT -5
Gord, I am persuaded that people in various cultures and various times have "figured" out what it is that God requires of them. All they need is the scripture. And, I am sure that God knows the hearts and minds of people who have no scripture.
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Post by WALL-E on Jun 9, 2009 8:33:06 GMT -5
It's a work of fiction, so no, it doesn't count. Can fictional characters obtain salvation? How 'bout salivation?
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Gord
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Post by Gord on Jun 9, 2009 8:36:40 GMT -5
It's a work of fiction, so no, it doesn't count. Can fictional characters obtain salvation? How 'bout salivation? That's not what I meant. I meant, IF (hypothetically) a group like this spontaneously came into existence, seperate from the Friends and Workers, could it be of God? If the F&W ever came across them, would they assume it was not of God, because it was not connected to them? Or would they say that since there is so much similar, they are also of God?
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Post by sharon on Jun 9, 2009 8:40:29 GMT -5
It's a work of fiction, so no, it doesn't count. Can fictional characters obtain salvation? How 'bout salivation? That's not what I meant. I meant, IF (hypothetically) a group like this spontaneously came into existence, seperate from the Friends and Workers, could it be of God? If the F&W ever came across them, would they assume it was not of God, because it was not connected to them? Or would they say that since there is so much similar, they are also of God? Honestly? The ruling majority of the F&W's likely would be skeptical of such a movement of Christ believers...HOWEVER, there are some who'd really appreciate the fact that individuals are the ones responsible for their own salvation as it says to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..... That made me think about the appeal to Jesus 'Lord help thou mine unbelief." Otherwords, how strong is our real faith in the living Christ? I, myself, feel a need to appeal to God in prayer nearly everyday that He would help mine unbelief. And He surely has!
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Post by Brick on Jun 9, 2009 19:01:59 GMT -5
Yeah, pretty much what Sharon said. We always wear a scowl when we look at something different and new. We have gone for ages with a lot of us thinking we are the only ones. Sort of like the song by Andrew Gold--Lonely Boy-he thought he was the only one. So I imagine a lot of us would search diligently for every conceivable difference so we could say, "Aha! I knew they weren't the same as us!" But that's only part of the story. Many more people would be so happy to have discovered an "extended branch of the family" hitherto unknown to them.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 10, 2009 23:37:38 GMT -5
I have a couple of questions: First of all, is the book, The Gate Seldom Found by Raymond Reid a "Truth" book? I know it's just a novel, but the people in it sound very much like Friends and Workers. Secondly, in the book, the first workers were not actually connected to the F&W's... they just sort of figured it out on their own. Does this count? Are they as much in the Truth as the F&W, even though they are not connected, and had no contact? I've read this book too, Gord, and love it! I don't personally know the author, but I understand he grew up in the F&W truth fellowship. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here - seems I heard he quit meetings after this book was published? The website gives more info: www.thegateseldomfound.com/index.htmlHis book is fiction, but it's based on the true story of how the truth fellowship began. We all know it actually happened in Ireland, but his setting for the book is Canada. Some of the situations in the book are altered entirely, while some describe actual incidents. For me, it's like Raymond Reid wrote the story the way everything SHOULD have happened. It's a beautiful story... inspiring and touching. IMO, every worker should read it... if every worker had the same pure motives as described in this book, and if the truth fellowship had actually been conducted the way this book describes... well, there would've never been a need for a TMB board.
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Post by sharon on Jun 10, 2009 23:51:01 GMT -5
Brick's post reminded me about when I told an overseer about the fact that there were still small groups of the "Vaudois" still in the Italian mountains and that they basically had launched out patterned after the NT days, etc...His comment was "Why are they not sending out 'workers' like that this day and age?" I told him I wasn't aware whether they were or they were not...that what I'd see on the internet supposedly was inviting young folks from other Christian denominations to come and have a long visit with them and see how they live and believe.....His comment was something to the effect that if they were believing like their forefathers had learned from the apostles that they'd be sending forth preachers 2X2 into all the world. I just quit trying to discuss it with him.
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Post by kiwi on Jun 10, 2009 23:57:52 GMT -5
I have a couple of questions: First of all, is the book, The Gate Seldom Found by Raymond Reid a "Truth" book? I know it's just a novel, but the people in it sound very much like Friends and Workers. Secondly, in the book, the first workers were not actually connected to the F&W's... they just sort of figured it out on their own. Does this count? Are they as much in the Truth as the F&W, even though they are not connected, and had no contact? I've read this book too, Gord, and love it! I don't personally know the author, but I understand he grew up in the F&W truth fellowship. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here - seems I heard he quit meetings after this book was published? The website gives more info: www.thegateseldomfound.com/index.htmlHis book is fiction, but it's based on the true story of how the truth fellowship began. We all know it actually happened in Ireland, but his setting for the book is Canada. Some of the situations in the book are altered entirely, while some describe actual incidents. For me, it's like Raymond Reid wrote the story the way everything SHOULD have happened. It's a beautiful story... inspiring and touching. IMO, every worker should read it... if every worker had the same pure motives as described in this book, and if the truth fellowship had actually been conducted the way this book describes... well, there would've never been a need for a TMB board. As far as I know he's still in the fellowship and I agree with what you have said but don't see it dissimular to todays our fellowship ministry.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 11, 2009 0:35:35 GMT -5
Didn't Raymond Reid get told by a worker (Hobbs, while he was the head worker, who has been accused of sexual abuse and stood down from the work ) to destroy the book. Raymond wrote a remorseful apology for writing the book and burnt them and took his website down as told by the worker. Now is it up and running again and copies available again?
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Post by Christopher J. on Jun 11, 2009 1:18:04 GMT -5
Didn't Raymond Reid get told by a worker (Hobbs, while he was the head worker, who has been accused of sexual abuse and stood down from the work ) to destroy the book. Raymond wrote a remorseful apology for writing the book and burnt them and took his website down as told by the worker. Now is it up and running again and copies available again? No, you're getting a totally different man and book confused with Raymond Reid. I actually know both Raymond Reid and the man you are referring to quite well, but they are two separate situations.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2009 6:26:23 GMT -5
Sapphire wrote:
I beg to differ. Yes, its fiction; however he takes liberties with the history and the people involved in it, which disappointed me greatly. He could have done the F&W a great service by sticking to the facts and weaving his story line around them--but he changed the background facts--I have to wonder why?
Due to this, some readers have been deceived into thinking the background and characters represents the early players in the fellowship--when there are actually critical deviations that render the book an inaccurate statement of the early days of the fellowship.
I would warn any new reader of this book to be careful that you do not take the background of this book as factual regarding the "truth fellowship."
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Post by sharon on Jun 11, 2009 7:29:25 GMT -5
Cherie, I appreciate you warning the readers of Raymond Reid's book to keep in mind it is a "fictional" work. However, I've noted that inspite of some readers knowing that a book is "fictional" they still are not able to dismiss what they've read and think of it all as "facts" and truth. Sometimes I want somebody to ban books from these kind of people's possesion!
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Post by WALL-E on Jun 11, 2009 7:31:28 GMT -5
Yes, its fiction; however he takes liberties with the history and the people involved in it, which disappointed me greatly. He could have done the F&W a great service by sticking to the facts and weaving his story line around them--but he changed the background facts--I have to wonder why? Why? Ask yourself why Jesus spoke in parables rather than from history. There are many reasons why fiction is written, but not among the least is an illustration of the ideal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2009 8:14:45 GMT -5
I understand the late Ontario overseer, Carson Cowan, remarked about the book, "it is as it was". Like Cherie, I wish he would have made an "historical fiction" book. It would have been more effort, but less obtuse. I suspect Raymond had a lot of Ontario stories to use at the time and less Irish information so that's why he made it fiction.....just my guess. Today, a very compelling historical fiction book could be written by someone with the time and talent to do so. ShelleyA, where are you?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2009 8:24:24 GMT -5
Yes, there are many reasons "Why?" And Jesus DID speak from history...RR's book can't be compared to Jesus--apples to oranges. Does anyone know why RR changed the history for his book? What does RR ahve to say about it? I know that he sent copies of the draft of his book to many people before printing it for their opinions and suggestions--and some discussed this deviation with him--but he left the false history in his book. He even sent me a draft copy and we discussed it. So I still ask: WHY? I have not yet seen a good reason presented. Some might also enjoy reading Bob Williston's fiction book that uses the truth fellowship for a background; yet does not lead anyone astray regarding the start-up of the fellowship...compare it to RR's book...practically everything in the book has happened or could happen in the truth fellowship; especially in California! www2.xlibris.com/BOOKSTORE/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=48903[
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2009 9:15:03 GMT -5
As with most decision making processes, there are always judgment calls to be made.
My theory is that Raymond believed that his book would be more palatable to the friends and workers to read than if it was factually based.
As another reader pointed out, RR seems to be presenting a principle more than history. From reading the book, I would process it that RR was presenting that the principles of the early workers of simplicity, minimal organization, and relational Christianity has been lost in the current manifestation of the same group of people.
I don't believe that RR's purpose was to present the history and straighten us out on that , but to present some of the nice aspects of the fellowship of the past, which are lost today.
JohnW says he knows RR well, so he probably knows the answer or will encourage RR to post the answer here. I am curious too about why he didn't go with a historical fiction. I think anyone who does a serious effort with that idea will get some good readership.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 11, 2009 11:27:58 GMT -5
Sapphire wrote: I beg to differ. Yes, its fiction; however he takes liberties with the history and the people involved in it, which disappointed me greatly. He could have done the F&W a great service by sticking to the facts and weaving his story line around them--but he changed the background facts--I have to wonder why? Due to this, some readers have been deceived into thinking the background and characters represents the early players in the fellowship--when there are actually critical deviations that render the book an inaccurate statement of the early days of the fellowship. I would warn any new reader of this book to be careful that you do not take the background of this book as factual regarding the "truth fellowship." As I stated earlier: I don't believe he ever intended to re-write the actual history of our fellowship - that's why he wrote a fiction book. In a way, it proves a point... that ANYONE with a pure heart and a right spirit can have a closer walk with God by just "getting back to the basics"... it's not ONLY those from who follow the group that was started by William Irvine, as they seem to think they are THE only ones on earth who can know the blessing of God.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 11, 2009 12:29:59 GMT -5
I have a couple of questions: First of all, is the book, The Gate Seldom Found by Raymond Reid a "Truth" book? I know it's just a novel, but the people in it sound very much like Friends and Workers. On the back cover of my copy of The Gate Seldom Found it says "this novel dramatizes the true story of a little known Christian fellowship that flowered late in the 19th century". (emphasis added by me) www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/gate.html
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2009 13:50:34 GMT -5
Clay is right - the back cover DOES say that. Check it out on Reid's website - the front and back cover are right there for all to read: www.thegateseldomfound.com/index.htmlI have a couple of questions: First of all, is the book, The Gate Seldom Found by Raymond Reid a "Truth" book? I know it's just a novel, but the people in it sound very much like Friends and Workers. On the back cover of my copy of The Gate Seldom Found it says "this novel dramatizes the true story of a little known Christian fellowship that flowered late in the 19th century". (emphasis added by me) www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/gate.html
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Post by What Hat on Jun 11, 2009 14:23:39 GMT -5
Fiction is often truer than fact. I think RR wove together a lot of stories he had heard and which are general knowledge into a fictional narrative. Almost every major fictional work does that - To Kill a Mockingbird being a notable example. He chose to set the story in Ontario because he lives there. I'm not sure if that was wise, because to the extent the stories are real, they almost certainly happened in Ireland. It's unusual but not unheard of for a writer of fiction to change the location so drastically. Anyway, a work of fiction can take a POV, change or color the facts, avoid libel issues, juice up a story to make it more interesting, tidy up the unruliness of events into a smooth narrative, and take any number of liberties. Often the end result is "truer" than a historical narrative because it can probe much more deeply.
It's not fair though to criticize the writer for its historical accuracy since it is presented as a work of fiction, not history. It is fair comment to compare the book to the actual history, based on a close reading, for interest sake.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2009 14:32:42 GMT -5
Now YOU are taking liberties with what is "true" In my book...leaving out a main character is NOT keeping true to the "true story" the cover claims the book to be. Fiction is often truer than fact. I think RR wove together a lot of stories he had heard and which are general knowledge into a fictional narrative. Almost every major fictional work does that - To Kill a Mockingbird being a notable example. He chose to set the story in Ontario because he lives there. I'm not sure if that was wise, because to the extent the stories are real, they almost certainly happened in Ireland. It's unusual but not unheard of for a writer of fiction to change the location so drastically. Anyway, a work of fiction can take a POV, change or color the facts, avoid libel issues, juice up a story to make it more interesting, tidy up the unruliness of events into a smooth narrative, and take any number of liberties. Often the end result is "truer" than a historical narrative because it can probe much more deeply.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 11, 2009 14:41:47 GMT -5
Now YOU are taking liberties with what is "true" In my book...leaving out a main character is NOT keeping true to the "true story" the cover claims the book to be. Fiction is often truer than fact. I think RR wove together a lot of stories he had heard and which are general knowledge into a fictional narrative. Almost every major fictional work does that - To Kill a Mockingbird being a notable example. He chose to set the story in Ontario because he lives there. I'm not sure if that was wise, because to the extent the stories are real, they almost certainly happened in Ireland. It's unusual but not unheard of for a writer of fiction to change the location so drastically. Anyway, a work of fiction can take a POV, change or color the facts, avoid libel issues, juice up a story to make it more interesting, tidy up the unruliness of events into a smooth narrative, and take any number of liberties. Often the end result is "truer" than a historical narrative because it can probe much more deeply. Well, I stand by what I said. There may very well be an issue with the blurb, but not with the book. But let's look at that blurb more closely. The third paragraph on the back states, "This novel dramatizes the true story ..." I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean as it sounds contradictory. If you've seen the movie "The Longest Day", it dramatizes the true story of D-Day, yet many of the events in that movie never occurred, and many important aspects of the event, especially its true horror, were left out. I guess the best I'd say is they should have left out the word "true". As soon as you "dramatize" you're probably taking liberties with the "true story". I don't have any problem with you saying the book is a significant departure from the actual history and the reasons why. But I would go easy on RR; I think he wrote a fairly interesting book. Also the writer is not usually in control of the blurb on the back. It's meant to make the book sell, and often the publisher's hack who writes it has not even read the book.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2009 15:37:40 GMT -5
what wrote
Maybe not "usually," but IMO an author who was devoted to truth would make sure their book cover contained words/wording they approved of and which truthfully represented the authors book...
What did you find particularly "interesting" about RR's book?
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Post by fred on Jun 11, 2009 18:20:40 GMT -5
Years ago, when the book was first doing the rounds in Australia, I heard one high profile member state " ...and that's the way it should have been."
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Post by What Hat on Jun 22, 2009 20:45:38 GMT -5
I understand the late Ontario overseer, Carson Cowan, remarked about the book, "it is as it was". Like Cherie, I wish he would have made an "historical fiction" book. It would have been more effort, but less obtuse. I suspect Raymond had a lot of Ontario stories to use at the time and less Irish information so that's why he made it fiction.....just my guess. Today, a very compelling historical fiction book could be written by someone with the time and talent to do so. ShelleyA, where are you? CD, what do you see as the difference between 'historical fiction' and 'fiction'? Just want to see if it matches up with mine, and to understand your comment a little better. (Cherie, I still mean to answer your question about the RR book but have been busy).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 7:50:26 GMT -5
I understand the late Ontario overseer, Carson Cowan, remarked about the book, "it is as it was". Like Cherie, I wish he would have made an "historical fiction" book. It would have been more effort, but less obtuse. I suspect Raymond had a lot of Ontario stories to use at the time and less Irish information so that's why he made it fiction.....just my guess. Today, a very compelling historical fiction book could be written by someone with the time and talent to do so. ShelleyA, where are you? CD, what do you see as the difference between 'historical fiction' and 'fiction'? Just want to see if it matches up with mine, and to understand your comment a little better. (Cherie, I still mean to answer your question about the RR book but have been busy). There are probably a few definitions of "historical fiction" but the way I view it is as a story told with as much historical fact as possible but with many dramatized events included. Ideally, the dramatized events would portray what the author imagines really happened but for which there is no detailed factual account to draw on. In other words, it is accurate history with the blanks filled in by fiction. I wouldn't call RR's book historical fiction. In order to be historical fiction it would have to use all the known facts in story such as the Irish setting and the characters of JL, WI, EC, etc.
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Post by nastysteve on Jun 24, 2009 6:07:08 GMT -5
Being from Ontario I know who Raymond is and have had short meaningless conversations with him. If I was to list a group of mentors he would be in the top 3. A soft spoken man with a lot of drive, he has helped several "friends" and his own children to become millionaires in the residential market.
I remember Mr. Reid sitting by himself in a funeral home when my 21 year old cousin passed away. Daryl spent a great deal of quality time with Raymond and I'm positive his death had a huge impact on his life.
Knowing what I do at this moment, If could go back 20 years and instead of walking past him to line up to speak with the family I regret not sitting down with him if only to share his grief in silence.
I had no idea until this morning that this book existed.. You can be sure that I will read it as soon as I possibly can.
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